Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?

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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
F-35 is simulated dog fight

Hi,

This just in:

http://news.smh.com.au/national/minchin-rejects-doubts-about-fighter-jet-20080911-4e6u.html

The JSF jets, for which Australia is likely to pay $16 billion, were comprehensively beaten in highly classified simulated dogfights against Russian-built Sukhoi fighter aircraft, it has been reported.

The war games, conducted at Hawaii's Hickam airbase last month, were witnessed by at least four RAAF personnel and a member of Australia's peak military spy agency, the Defence Intelligence Organisation, The West Australian said.
Anybody who has more information on this? Did this really happen?


V
 

stigmata

New Member
Hi,

This just in:

http://news.smh.com.au/national/minchin-rejects-doubts-about-fighter-jet-20080911-4e6u.html



Anybody who has more information on this? Did this really happen?


V
Here you have a second opinion ;)

In June 2006 the capabilities of Block 1 “Initial Warfighting Capability” were defined as “Flight qualified, baseline air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons qualified. Pilot and maintenance training can commence”. In May 2008 the capabilities of Block 1 were defined as “Support for AI [Air Interdiction] mission (limited target set), allowing meaningful operational test.” Thus, over the last two years the Block 1 aircraft lost its air-to-air capability and its strike capability has been restricted.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-03.html
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
It is not a "second opinion" - Dennis Jensen can be considered part of the APA crowd.

Is there any block 1 or 2s that will go into frontline operational service (without being upgraded to later blocks) and are they in reality only LRIP/trials blocks until upgraded ?

IIRC the block 3 are fully A2A qualified. Norway and Denmark are slated for block 4 and 5s. So...?

Thus, IIRC, APA omits the critical part of the information in order to lead the reader to the erroneous conclusion that the F-35 cannot fight A2A.

Think about this. ;)

Cheers
 
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F-15 Eagle

New Member
  1. Regarding cost the F-22's price tripled because production was cut to a QUARTER of the original number. So that example shouldn't be used to describe potential costs increases to the F-35.
  2. Secondly the air to air performance and agility of the F-35. The F-35's wing loading is the same as the latest F-16 model. The F-16 is still quite agile in the heavier versions. This completely forgets the F-35 will kill you from a distance without having to dogfight at all.
  3. Thirdly the close air support role of the F-35. The F-35 will fly at medium altitude opposed to low altitude like the A-10. This means the F-35 can fly more effeciently. It also means the F-35 can see the target for longer even though its flying faster. The ability to take ground fire is no longer as important at these higher altitudes. Such a comparison is stupid as the role has changed completely.
  4. The bombing capability. "Only two 2,000lb bombs" Well thats all the F-117 carried and it decimated Iraq with only a couple dozen aircraft. Imagine a thousand F-117's during the gulf war the country as thats what the USAF will potentially have. Not to mention the F-35 will be able to carry a dozen smaller SDB's internally. Thats a lot of targets destroyed.


I can not believe such a magazine would print something so incorrect.
Don't forget the F-35 will have external stores for AAMs and Bombs if need be.

By the way if you want to read a B.S. article about putting down the F-35 then read this: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/new...bed-by-russians/2008/09/11/1220857689496.html

LOL they said the F-35 has failed in mock dogfights against the Russian SU-30 but the last time I checked the F-35 has not been in any mock battles yet LMAO :eek:nfloorl:this article is just too funny, probably maid by the very small group of anti-F-35 nut jobs that will do and say anything to put down the F-35. For whatever reason your guess is as good as mine.
 

stigmata

New Member
Err...you did'nt read the article very well, did you ?

It was simulated dogfights...based on a computer game, computer modelling of the aircraft....the JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois.

Though i think both Sukhois, F-35, and every other manned aircraft is a thing of the past with the event of UCAVs in the ground attack role...
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Err...you did'nt read the article very well, did you ?

It was simulated dogfights...based on a computer game, computer modelling of the aircraft....the JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois.

Though i think both Sukhois, F-35, and every other manned aircraft is a thing of the past with the event of UCAVs in the ground attack role...
Dr. Jensen, a man with an agenda had it second hand, hearsay; i.e. two layers of agendas and interpretation. By the way, do you know which facility at Hickham the simulation was run at? ;) That's right... :D

It's BS.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Cardinal sin, but I'm not going to rewrite another post from another forum - this however is by a professional defence journalist:


What a load of crap. Dr Jensen, avowed opponent of the JSF, former pottery engineer, dis-endorsed liberal party backbencher and air traffic controller, says someone he knows heard about this test in which the Su-27 something nicely graphic to a F-35.

Perhaps in a within visual range dogfight in which all the F-35A’s advanced situational awareness systems have been disabled the Su-27 may have a chance. But since this is as likely a combat situation as a submarine surfacing beside a gun armed cruiser with the skipper popping out the conning tower with a paintball gun screaming ‘bring it on’...

But what capability does Hickham Air Base have for simulation, anyway? Here is a list of the units at Hickham. Which one of these is the air combat test and evaluation centre? What about the fighter weapons centre at Las Vegas. Where the real testing is done on F-35 capability?

15th Airlift Wing Staff Agencies
15th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron
15th Maintenance Group
15th Maintenance Operations Squadron
15th Maintenance Squadron
15th Medical Group
15th Aeromedical-Dental Squadron
15th Medical Operations Squadron
15th Medical Support Squadron
3d Space Operations Squadron/Operating Location-Bravo
17th Operational Weather Squadron
48th Aerial Port Squadron (USAFR)
55th Space Weather Squadron, Det 5 (AFWA)
324th Intelligence Squadron
349th Airlift Wing (USAFR)
352nd Information Operations Squadron
624th Regional Support Group (Pacific Division)
624th Logistics Support Flight
624th Aeromedical Staging Squadron
715th Air Mobility Operations Group (AMOG)
735th Air Mobility Squadron (AMS)
624th Civil Engineering Squadron
22nd Space Operation Squadron, Det 4
Air Force Audit Agency, Pacific AAO, Team A
Air Force Office of Special Investigations, DET 601
Air Mobility Control Center
15th Mission Support Group
Airman and Family Readiness Flight
15th Civil Engineer Squadron
15th Communications Squadron
15th Contracting Squadron
15th Mission Support Group
15th Missions Support Squadron
15th Security Forces Squadron
15th Services Squadron
15th MSS Civilian Personnel Flight
15th Operations Group
15th Air Support Operations Squadron
15th Operations Support Squadron
535th Airlift Squadron
65th Airlift Squadron
Hickam Associated Organizations
Air Force Sergeants Association
Air Force Hawaii Top 3
Air Force Hawaii 5/6 Council
Hickam AFB AIrman's Attic
Hickam Company Grade Officers Council
American Red Cross (ARC)
Army Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES)
Document Automation and Production Service(DAPS)
Defense Commissary Agency (DeCA)
Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS)
Defense Information System Agency (DISA)
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
Hawaii Air National Guard
Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command
National Imagery And Mapping Agency (NIMA)
USO, Hawaii
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Cardinal sin, but I'm not going to rewrite another post from another forum - this however is by a professional defence journalist:


What a load of crap. Dr Jensen, avowed opponent of the JSF, former pottery engineer, dis-endorsed liberal party backbencher and air traffic controller, says someone he knows heard about this test in which the Su-27 something nicely graphic to a F-35.

Perhaps in a within visual range dogfight in which all the F-35A’s advanced situational awareness systems have been disabled the Su-27 may have a chance. But since this is as likely a combat situation as a submarine surfacing beside a gun armed cruiser with the skipper popping out the conning tower with a paintball gun screaming ‘bring it on’...

But what capability does Hickham Air Base have for simulation, anyway?
http://www.pacaf.af.mil/photos/media_search.asp?q=simulator

JSF

HICKAM AIR FORCE BASE, Hawaii (AFPN) -- Maj. Steve Biggs watches an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter simulator flight here. The simulator demonstrates the advanced capabilities of the F-35 -- the joint fighter of the 21st century. Major Biggs is from the Headquarters Pacific Air Force advanced programs office. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Shane A. Cuomo)

HICKAM AIR FORCE BASE, Hawaii (AFPN) -- Maj. Don Borchelt flies the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft simulator here. The simulator demonstrates the advanced capabilities of the F-35 -- the joint fighter of the 21st century. Major Borchelt is from the Headquarters Pacific Air Force advanced programs office. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Shane A. Cuomo)
If they got this perhaps they also got some other simulator stuff laying around? :)

V
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If they got this perhaps they also got some other simulator stuff laying around? :)

V
RAAF sim'd russian aircraft last year against JSF - it didn't happen in Hawai'i.

More importantly, Jensens reputation is crap - he made a fool of himself at the Hearings last year and hasn't got over the fact that the RAAF JSF team made him look like an amateur...
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
When is this guy going to give up seriously no body cares about his B.S.

Those "computer simulations" are crap, anyone knowing how to use them can make the end result be whatever they want it to be. You could even have a Cessna beat the SU-30 and so on.....
 

energo

Member
Don't forget the F-35 will have external stores for AAMs and Bombs if need be.
And don't forget: the F-35 is 9G-rated with 4500 lbs of weapons, close to 8.5 tons of fuel and a a comprehensive sensor suite, including a trageting pod for a total of 7 IR apertures.

And while in this heavy configuration it has no bank or mach limitations, as well as no G limitations. I can think of no other fighter which can match this. Most other fighters will be limited to 5-6Gs, mach 0.9 and 180 degree bank angle until they jettison or drop the ordnance.

Consider that it will be stealthy as well.


Regards,
B. Bolsøy
Oslo
 
When is this guy going to give up seriously no body cares about his B.S.

Those "computer simulations" are crap, anyone knowing how to use them can make the end result be whatever they want it to be. You could even have a Cessna beat the SU-30 and so on.....
To be fair I doubt anything other than direct Aerial combat could give you completely accurate comparison info. So many factors come into play that it must be a nightmare to try to keep track of them all to give politicians a simple answer.
 

stigmata

New Member
They depict an aircrafts capabilities well, othervise millions of $$ would'nt be spent on them. And there certainly would'nt be any reason to keep them in secret.
But they don't take into account different pilots skills, -and thats what really make a difference.
Just imagine five boyscouts in a fancy tank vs five navy seals, or a veteran tankcrew vs five boyscouts in cyclops and an M-16.

Keyword is low operating cost to allow for extensive training.

Btw why so many insults and defaming comments on this site ?
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
To be fair I doubt anything other than direct Aerial combat could give you completely accurate comparison info. So many factors come into play that it must be a nightmare to try to keep track of them all to give politicians a simple answer.
The F-22 has never been in direct aerial combat yet we already know its a great jet. Same goes for the F-35.
 

energo

Member
LMs rebuttal to the sept. 9th Sprey and Wheeler JDW article:

TOM BURBAGE & GEN C.R. DAVIS
Rebuttal

PROGRAMME LEADERS RESPOND - BY TOM BURBAGE AND MAJ GEN CHARLES DAVIS

The great American humorist Will Rogers once said: "It ain't what people don't know that hurts 'em - it's what they do know that ain't so!"

It's not clear why the authors of the previous article chose to defile the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme, other than their claim of expertise in legacy fighter performance and procurement. That expertise is largely irrelevant today because that game has changed.

It is clear that they do not understand the underlying requirements of the F-35 programme, the capabilities needed to meet those requirements or the real programmatic performance of the JSF team.

Fortunately, leaders throughout the tri-service, multinational partnership that will be tasked with making difficult acquisition decisions in the next few years do understand. While it is not our intent to challenge the authors' right to recount their personal opinions, it is important to put them in the context of facts.

Fact: F-35 unit costs have increased 38 per cent since the contract was awarded in 2001 (not 54 per cent). Fully 35 per cent of that increase is due to economic factors outside of the programme's control, including cost of raw materials, such as titanium and carbon fibre composites, and inflation factors. The average per-unit cost of the F-35 is USD77 million in future-year dollars on a programme expected to be in production through at least 2036.

Fact: It is true that the F-35 has barely begun its flight-test programme. We have two aircraft in flight test and one in ground test.
Over the next 18 months, 17 more ground- and flight-test vehicles will enter the programme.

Recognising this concurrency challenge, the F-35 programme broke with traditional programmes like the ones the authors are familiar with.

Very large investments were made in a vast and highly integrated laboratory system and a first-ever, full-fusion flying testbed. All F-35 sensors are flying today on surrogate test aircraft. The flight test for the F-35 is, for the first time, verification of projected performance and not discovery-oriented.

It is important to note that the F-35 flight-control software and avionics have performed flawlessly, contrary to the authors' assertion. A single electrical anomaly was discovered very early on in the first test aircraft and was related to manufacturing process control, not a technical shortcoming, proving the value of early test aircraft to reduce technical risks. In addition to the 19 developmental test aircraft, the F-35 is producing 20 fully instrumented, production-configured operational test aircraft. No programme in history has employed this many test vehicles.

Fact: On the F-35, the referenced 19 million Software Lines of Code (SLOC) span the aircraft, the logistics systems, flight and maintenance trainers, maintenance information system and flight-test instrumentation. So far 9 million of that total SLOC has been completed on cost and on schedule.

Fact: At peak production the F-35 programme will produce 231 jets annually: better than one per manufacturing day. In this year's budget the DoD funded a peak rate of 150 aircraft per year for the three US services. The additional aircraft will be built for the international partners, providing unprecedented economies of scale for all parties.

Fact: The 'dog' referred to by the authors is in fact a 'racehorse'. The take-off weight reference to 49,500 lb is true but misleading as the programme brings 'traditional external fuel' internal to the F-35 for stealth reasons. The F-35 carries 18,500 lb of internal fuel which, coupled with the very low drag that results from internal carriage of weapons in the stealth mode, allows unprecedented combat radius performance.

The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter programme the authors remember did not include combat-range fuel, sensors or armament. Fighter performance demonstrated by fourth-generation aircraft in airshow manoeuvres is not relevant to performance in a combat loadout. Lightweight fighter dependence on energy management and manoeuvrability has little relevance in the threat environment for which the F-35 is being designed.

Fact: The F-35 has the most powerful single engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F-18 E/F aircraft.

The conventional version of the F-35 has 9 g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with internal carriage of 'external fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons', the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.

When the threat situation dictates that it is safe for legacy aircraft (like the ones the authors reference) to participate, the F-35 can carry ordnance on six external wing stations in addition to its four internal stations. External weapon clearance is part of our current test programme, contrary to the authors' claim. This racehorse can also enter the fight from any base. One of the F-35's many advantages is its ability to be stealthy whenever the situation dictates - a distinction that is absent in all fourth-generation fighters. Anyone who doubts the value of stealth need only look over the grotesquely lopsided victory-to-loss ratios of F-22s in mock combat exercises such as 'Red Flag' and 'Northern Edge'.

Fact: The F-35's data collection, integration and sharing capabilities will transform the battlespace of the future and will redefine the close air support mission. The reference to the F-117 incident in Serbia had far less to do with stealth than it did with the inability to share tactically important information. The F-35 is specifically designed to correct that deficiency.

In January the US will inaugurate a new president.

He will be required to rebuild frayed alliances and form new coalitions to deal with future conflicts.

He will see that one programme has been designed from the beginning to provide both the military and eco-industrial underpinnings to facilitate that need.

He will see why, for the first time, economies of commonality and scale are reversing the trends of the past. When a programme of the scale and truly transformational nature of the F-35 comes along, detractors often try to relate to the world we are leaving behind and not the world we are trying to change.

Their opinion is a valuable part of the checks and balances we employ.

We appreciate the chance to respond.

Tom Burbage is the Executive Vice President and General Manager, F-35 Program Integration
Major General Charles Davis is the Program Executive Officer for the F-35 Program.

Both men have extensive aircraft design and development, flight test and operational experience across a broad portfolio of leading-edge fighter programmes.
Regards,
B. Bolsøy
Oslo
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Total murder on the arguments from the right side of the certainty through. :D

But essentially saying the same as has been said in numerous iterations in this thread and other threads.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Just as a reference: According to the USAF 2009 Budget Estimates a F-35 will cost 83 mn USD (then-year, future-year, 2036 USD) on average. How come LM says it will be 77 mn USD (then-year, future-year, 2036)?

Easy, look at page 2 in the WSC analysis. LM is quoting the recurring fly-away cost. USAF is using WSC minus initial spares as the fly-away, both in TY dollars. In other words, the USAF number include lots of nonrecurring costs, i.e. ancillary equipment, documentation, etc...

So what LM says is consistent with the USAF estimates.

Btw, Sintra - this is part of the cost which the US undertakes and not the partners.
 
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