T-90 Tank

[kato]

I have no idea why only the battalion commander would get a SEM-93 btw. We got them at platoon-level at some point, presumably for encrypted communications with mechanized forces (and didn't have the trained staff for them...).

The 80/90 nowadays is easily explained by the Leopard 2 forces shrinking to roughly half until about 2002. SEM-90s would go to the remaining tanks at that point, but there wouldn't be enough to put all tanks to 90/90 (would nowadays probably be possible).

Btw, to get back to Russian tanks, the T-80UK for example also carries in addition to standard T-80U gear a small APU (1 kW), and a electronic navigation board. Also, the HF radio difference is far bigger than e.g. in Germany with SEM-80 and SEM-90 - the T-80UK communications gear allows for communications out to 50 km* on the move, and up to 350 km with extended antenna mast.

*- range values from OmskTransMash GUP, which builds T-80U and T-80UK.

 

[nevidimka]

1) I dont know any 21st MRD. May be they mean 21st guardian tank division in Belogorsk (Far East near China border)?
2) T-90A/AK - is T-90 with welded turret, domestic variant. THe export variant is called T-90S/SK.
3) Some time ago tHere was an information in internet about few number of new made T-90 commander tanks with cast turrets especially contracted by the army. THey naturaly came to the units with old T-90 stock, easy to think byself why. There is one of them on the picture from MSVT-2008 (two antennas - mean commander's variant). Just two independent news crossover...

1) Kaktus - is very different ERA, more heavy and in addition to regular cummulatives and APFSDS it's effective against tandem cummulatives and 'striking nucleus' types of rounds. More effective against APFSDSs.
2) It's Shtora's OTShU-1-7 modulator:

So the Kaktus ERA is better than the K-5 then? What about the newer Relikt ERA? its claimed to be 2-3 times better than the K-5? But i cant find any references on the internet for the Relikt.

And I also found these comparision data on the net posted by some poster.

Protection:

M1- 400 vs KE 600 vs HEAT
M1A1- 450 vs KE 700 vs HEAT
M1A1HA- 600 vs KE 1150 vs HEAT
Leopard 2A4 - 700 vs KE 1000 vs HEAT
M1A2- 760 vs KE 1400 vs HEAT
Lacrec- 800 vs KE 1600 vs HEAT
M1A2SEP- 840 vs KE 1400 vs HEAT
Leopard 2A5- 870 vs KE 1500 vs HEAT
Challanger 2- 960 vs KE 1700 vs HEAT
Leo 2A6 may be as high as 1000mm vs KE.

Now compare to Russian tanks:

T-72B - 530 vs KE 620 vs HEAT
T-72BV- 580 vs KE 1120 vs HEAT
T-80B- 550 vs KE 650 vs HEAT
T-80BV- 600 vs KE 1150 vs HEAT
T-72BM- 780 vs KE 1220 vs HEAT
T-80U- 820 vs KE 1350 vs HEAT
T-90- 1000 vs KE 1600 vs HEAT

Also did UAE bought Russian Tanks or BTR-90 equipped with Shtora and Arena system?

 

[DefConGuru]

So the Kaktus ERA is better than the K-5 then? What about the newer Relikt ERA? its claimed to be 2-3 times better than the K-5? But i cant find any references on the internet for the Relikt.


Also did UAE bought Russian Tanks or BTR-90 equipped with Shtora and Arena system?

I would assume so, their BMP-3's have Shtora and they don't really have any domestic systems to replace with.

 

[Feanor]

Relikt is supposed to be better then K-5 by quite a wide margin (relikt is the ERA on the T-72B2 Rogatka right?). As for your armor chart, it seems very simplistic. Protection levels are different for from, side, turret, rear, top, etc. It also depends on the angle of attack etc.

 

[tatra]

Relikt is supposed to be better then K-5 by quite a wide margin (relikt is the ERA on the T-72B2 Rogatka right?). As for your armor chart, it seems very simplistic. Protection levels are different for from, side, turret, rear, top, etc. It also depends on the angle of attack etc.

Clearly, even the latest M1 can effectively get killed by a 25mm API round in its rear. However, it is common practise to compare on strongest point i.e. frontal arc hull and turret. While a simplification (not all possible scenarios considered) there is nothing inherently wrong about this way of comparing.

:duel

 

[Waylander]

Do you really believe that this list is based on facts?

For example the Leopard IIA5 and A6 have different protection levels...
I am not going to go into other details...

 

[eckherl]

Do you really believe that this list is based on facts?

For example the Leopard IIA5 and A6 have different protection levels...
I am not going to go into other details...

What - internet is wrong. Kinda looks like a wargamers list.

 

[Feanor]

The interwebs..... serious business!

On a more serious note Nevidimka, the person didn't happen to source their info did they? If not ask them for a source

 

[nevidimka]

The interwebs..... serious business!

On a more serious note Nevidimka, the person didn't happen to source their info did they? If not ask them for a source

Sorry, he did not quote any source. Which is why i mentioned it was posted by another poster from another board. But I thought ppl here could confirm if there's any truth in it. Also the figures surely give the best ability of each Armour, so criticizing on that point is kinda moot.


Also why I asked the BTR-90 of UAE was becoz some guy in the same forum read that Russia advertised its Arena and Shtora in a UAE military show some years ago, but the locals wanted a real demonstrations of it. So the Russians turned them on n the locals shot live ammunitions at it, and nothing got through, so they bought it. I wonder if the claims are true?

 

[Feanor]

Certainly possinble. The UAE operates, BMP-3's and those could have shtora.

 

[tatra]

Do you really believe that this list is based on facts?

For example the Leopard IIA5 and A6 have different protection levels...
I am not going to go into other details...

There are different level given for different models Leo 2 (just not the ones you mentioned). What then is the problem, exactly?

Also, it's easy to sling mud on a source without giving a better source.
If you have better information, why don't you post it (with its sources).
I for one would be interested.

 

[Feanor]

We're not slinging mud on a source, but seriously questioning a simplistic list like that given by an anonymous poster on another forum with no sources.

EDIT: Hey is lists higher protection against KE on the SEP vs the regular M1A2. Does the SEP upgrade include an armor package upgrade? I though it just upgraded the electronics.

 

[eckherl]

We're not slinging mud on a source, but seriously questioning a simplistic list like that given by an anonymous poster on another forum with no sources.

EDIT: Hey is lists higher protection against KE on the SEP vs the regular M1A2. Does the SEP upgrade include an armor package upgrade? I though it just upgraded the electronics.

All these lists that are circulating inregards to armor protection and ammunition capabilities is nothing more than wargamer lists or folks who think that they have the answer through calculations, this type of information is purely classified and folks that may actually know will not be broadcasting it, so no sources can be stated.

And you are correct that a SEP designation is a electronics upgrade package for communications and FCS.

 

[Onkel]

There are different level given for different models Leo 2 (just not the ones you mentioned). What then is the problem, exactly?

Armour wasn´t modified from A5 to A6. So why should they have different levels? That´s exactly the problem.

 

[eckherl]

Certainly possinble. The UAE operates, BMP-3's and those could have shtora.

I have not seen any UAE Bimp3`s with Shtora, doesn`t mean though that they are not interested in it, they recently purchased ERA kits from Russia, the old big boxy style versus the more slimmed down version that Russia came out with recently.

 

[Waylander]

There are different level given for different models Leo 2 (just not the ones you mentioned). What then is the problem, exactly?

Also, it's easy to sling mud on a source without giving a better source.
If you have better information, why don't you post it (with its sources).
I for one would be interested.

As Onkel already wrote, there is no difference between the armor of an A5 or the armor of an A6.
Interesting mistake in such a list...

Eckherl talked about the other problem.
There are no public sources which can give more than very very rough estimates of actual armor data for wargamers.

This kind of data is highly classified nobody with even a bit of a clue would openly state something in a public forum.
We do not even give this kind of data to the Leopard II export customers...

I am not throwing mud I am just saying that these lists are nothing but pure speculation not even to talk of the simplistic way this list is done.

You want sources?
Sorry but there are no sources. The same way as there are no real sources about other highly classified defense equipment.

 

[Feanor]

And you are correct that a SEP designation is a electronics upgrade package for communications and FCS.

So the list is bogus. It gives higher armor protection levels for the SEP vs. the regular M1.

 

[kato]

Waylander:
Well, there is public data on the side and aft protection of a generic Leopard 1. Simply because the original 50s requirements have been made public, which require "protection against 20mm APDS" on that angle. Similar for e.g. the good old AMX-30.

Most of it is conjecture really, at least with fully-armored MBTs. Think about why and when an upgrade was made, and observe changes in OPFOR armament during the same time frame - because data on that is far easier to get hold of. For the Leopard 2A5, seriously, there have been publicized non-penetrating shooting tests. Conjecture tells you what the RHA-equivalent level of the area shot has to be at minimum once you find out which projectiles were used (public) and what the RHA-equivalent penetration of these projectiles is (public).

You can't tie down RHA-equivalent down to the millimeter anyway. Even when adjusting for angle.

 

[tatra]

Armour wasn´t modified from A5 to A6. So why should they have different levels? That´s exactly the problem.

Ah but the list doesnt say that there are changes A5-A6, rather it says changes A4-A5. Waylander introduced A5-A6 (see post #146)

 

[Feanor]

It has different protection levels for the M1A2 and the SEP variant. But no armor upgrade was made between the two.

EDIT: Kato a very interesting method. You say that the RHA penetration potential of projectiles is public. Do you have any public sources? I'd be interested in seeing them.