Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[SABRE]

Hello yess;

1st of all thanks for the info.

I actually had a chat with couple of friends from PAF few days back. I don't know if this helps you in clearing up things.

> So far its "18" Block 52C/D.

> The US Navy is not releasing the remaining F-16s "yet" so there is an issue going on. But the US officials are trying to sort things out. US Navy is asking for some alternative in their place. The whole issue seems to be political rather number issue. We all know US Navy doesn't have any problem with numbers nor do I think they need the remaining F-16s. If nothing else, I think the US President has power to take the remaining F-16s & hand them over to PAF. After all he is commander-in-chief of all the forces in US.

> To my accounts, PAF should have 73 to 75 F-16s by 2015 but ACM is counting 60 - this probably implies that he is discounting the F-16s USN is not giving up (Probably).

 

[DefConGuru]

Hello yess;
The whole issue seems to be political rather number issue. We all know US Navy doesn't have any problem with numbers nor do I think they need the remaining F-16s. If nothing else, I think the US President has power to take the remaining F-16s & hand them over to PAF. After all he is commander-in-chief of all the forces in US.

Yes but GW is still answerable to Congress and right now the U.S. is not in it's usual good moods (lagging economy + wars + Russia). Also it feels the F-16 will more likely end up in the hands of China for R&D rather than attacking insurgents in the north, a notion that is being used as an excuse to screw us in the a** like the last dozen times. At the same time, the US feels the Pak army is not taking the insurgents seriously at all, I remember a Congressman saying on the news how every time Pak soldiers come across Taliban, they get unusually high casualties (can someone confirm this) and that they should focus on acquiring small items directly used in operations and not fighter jets.

This is why I believe PAF should drop this F-16 bonanza and almost cult like worship of the plane and just buy additional J-10's, these are not the 90s anymore, the F-16 MLU and below is not much different than a J-10 and very likely inferior once upgraded to our standards. Block 60 is not available to us. Block 52 should have been acquired 8 years ago. Pakistan should learn its lesson and move on, the closest that you want the U.S. these days is on the border in the opposite country, any closer relationship and things become a little hairy.

Also I change my stance on acquiring J-11b's from China, these are very dangerous aircraft (once the avionics/engine is improved) and counter a certain Sukhoi in the region. I think Pakistan should get important pieces to its military from China (certified ally) and France (desperate for customers) and let the US Congress go piss on itself until it is ready to live up its agreements.

PS - the refueling tanker for F-16's should go piss on itself as well, conformal tanks are not the end of the world.


-DCG

 

[yess]

> To my accounts, PAF should have 73 to 75 F-16s by 2015 but ACM is counting 60 - this probably implies that he is discounting the F-16s USN is not giving up (Probably).

I think ACM just gave ruff estimates..
32+2+2+14+18 = 68 MLU and Block 52+ and depending on USN 18 more could be added up..
2015 thats 6 years from now so JF-17 production rate has to go like 30 per year and its still 180... plus i think from 2015-2017 last 100 JF-17 batch could come with different configuration like AESA, 9+ hardpoints, more powerful engine, minor structural upgrades... its for sure JF-17 will appear in 1-2-3-4 tranches.. like first 50 JF-17 with rd-93 and chinese avionics we can call this block-1, then next 100+50 early batch upgraded with "french" avionics and radar, and re-engined with more powerful ws-13 we can call this block II, then the 3rd block should be a advance version of JF-17... (Pakistan has tendency of never reveling any information before its a done deal or secures the deal)..
also as we know its not 4 Erieye its 5 or maybe he is not counting the trani version...
interestingly SAAB has also reveled new Demo Airborne systems like SIGSTAR, and MPA "both on Saab-2000 platform".. PAF may eventually show interest in SIGSTAR intelligence gathering air craft and as matter of fact PN may also consider upgrading MPA fleet and Saab-2000 MPA is a perfect platform..

 

[DefConGuru]

I think ACM just gave ruff estimates..
32+2+2+14+18 = 68 MLU and Block 52+ and depending on USN 18 more could be added up..
2015 thats 6 years from now so JF-17 production rate has to go like 30 per year and its still 180... plus i think from 2015-2017 last 100 JF-17 batch could come with different configuration like AESA, 9+ hardpoints, more powerful engine, minor structural upgrades... its for sure JF-17 will appear in 1-2-3-4 tranches.. like first 50 JF-17 with rd-93 and chinese avionics we can call this block-1, then next 100+50 early batch upgraded with "french" avionics and radar, and re-engined with more powerful ws-13 we can call this block II, then the 3rd block should be a advance version of JF-17... (Pakistan has tendency of never reveling any information before its a done deal or secures the deal)..
also as we know its not 4 Erieye its 5 or maybe he is not counting the trani version...
interestingly SAAB has also reveled new Demo Airborne systems like SIGSTAR, and MPA "both on Saab-2000 platform".. PAF may eventually show interest in SIGSTAR intelligence gathering air craft and as matter of fact PN may also consider upgrading MPA fleet and Saab-2000 MPA is a perfect platform..

It is going to be an interesting journey through tranches for the JF-17, if things go swimmingly then one can expect future Chinese collaboration on a large dedicated air superiority 4.5-5 gen air craft locally produced.

 

[DefConGuru]

German Collaboration

I also believe we should become firm allies with the pinnacle of leadership in Europe which portrays itself globally as well, and that is Germany. Forgive me if I'm wrong but they've been partially neutral with dealing with Pakistan it's just that there is no delegation fit enough atm to pursue beneficial objects such as

1). Streghtening the Navy to convey detterant strength to nearby navies/terrorists/marauders from African coast

2). Strengthening the very much lacking overall defensive capability of Pakistan as an entire infrastructure to withstand political and geopolitical garbage as well as deep strike by aircraft packing AESA and BVR.

 

[aaaditya]

I also believe we should become firm allies with the pinnacle of leadership in Europe which portrays itself globally as well, and that is Germany. Forgive me if I'm wrong but they've been partially neutral with dealing with Pakistan it's just that there is no delegation fit enough atm to pursue beneficial objects such as

1). Streghtening the Navy to convey detterant strength to nearby navies/terrorists/marauders from African coast

2). Strengthening the very much lacking overall defensive capability of Pakistan as an entire infrastructure to withstand political and geopolitical garbage as well as deep strike by aircraft packing AESA and BVR.

i doubt if germany will ever support pakistan in any direct venture against the indian navy,pakistani navy's main adversary in the arabian sea,as far supply of armaments is concerned they would supply the same or superior weapons to india with equal enthusiasm.

the first point that you have highlighted is beneficial only to pakistan and to no other european nation.

 

[radiosilence]

as far supply of armaments is concerned they would supply the same or superior weapons to india with equal enthusiasm.

What are you basing this conclusion on? Your crystal ball?

 

[SABRE]

@ aaaditya;

> Lets not drag India in or this threat will turn into flames.
> This is PAF thread not PN.

What are you basing this conclusion on? Your crystal ball?

His assumption; no need for sarcasm.

 

[SABRE]

US is to give PAF 20 T-37 trainers by the end of this year. The news came yesterday on GEO (Pakistan's prominent News Channel).

 

[2S1]

US is to give PAF 20 T-37 trainers by the end of this year. The news came yesterday on GEO (Pakistan's prominent News Channel).

Looks like PAF are now also looking at ex-ROKAF A-37 Dragonfly as well.

http://www.korea.net/news/news/newsView.asp?serial_no=20071224007&part=103&SearchDay=&page=1

 

[IceCold]

US is to give PAF 20 T-37 trainers by the end of this year. The news came yesterday on GEO (Pakistan's prominent News Channel).

So other then being used as spares, will these be brought into any other use? Also shouldnt we be more focusing on inducting jets like the K-8 that will better train our pilots for the future platform such as the JFs and J-10 rather then going for the tweeties and south korean dragonfly?

 

[SABRE]

So other then being used as spares, will these be brought into any other use? Also shouldnt we be more focusing on inducting jets like the K-8 that will better train our pilots for the future platform such as the JFs and J-10 rather then going for the tweeties and south korean dragonfly?

There is no confirmation on A-37 Dragonfly. T-37 & K-8 are two different trainers. Cadets who graduate for Fast Flying (Supersonic) & Combat training get to fly K-8, FT-5 & FT-6. T-37 is basic flying training while the first flying training is done on Super Mushaq.

 

[2S1]

The A-37 would be a perfect COIN tool for the PAF.

Why waiste your F-16's on such missions? If A-37s are available cheap and you already use the T-37, the cost of operating this platform is well worth it IMO.

If memory serves; the North Vietnamese used to call the Dragonfly 'The Cross of Death' when the South Vietnamese flew against them. They can carry a very heavy load for their weight and are battle-hardy.

I'm sure Tom Clancy's fictional Soviet nickname for the A-10 Thunderbolt of 'Devil's Cross' was inspired by the A-37 in 'Red Storm Rising'.

 

[yess]

The A-37 would be a perfect COIN tool for the PAF.

Why waiste your F-16's on such missions? If A-37s are available cheap and you already use the T-37, the cost of operating this platform is well worth it IMO.

If memory serves; the North Vietnamese used to call the Dragonfly 'The Cross of Death' when the South Vietnamese flew against them. They can carry a very heavy load for their weight and are battle-hardy.

I'm sure Tom Clancy's fictional Soviet nickname for the A-10 Thunderbolt of 'Devil's Cross' was inspired by the A-37 in 'Red Storm Rising'.

i think you have a point.. A-37 is a perfect close air support weapon along with cobras for close air support... but nothing can beat A-10 "flying tank"...

 

[yess]

Is Gripen still alive for PAF?

Each course typically comprises three IPs and a group of test pilot students. The ETPS is an international organisation and this year the seven Gripen students are drawn from the UK, Netherlands, Pakistan, Singapore and Switzerland.

i think JF-17 revenue may help PAF to purchase 1-2 squadron of 4.5 generation western MRCA... Azerbaijan has confirmed order of 26 JF-17 worth 280+ million dollars plus more orders may gradually come from different countries..

 

[swerve]

Each course typically comprises three IPs and a group of test pilot students. The ETPS is an international organisation and this year the seven Gripen students are drawn from the UK, Netherlands, Pakistan, Singapore and Switzerland.

It's the Empire Test Pilots School, remember. They're learning to be test pilots. The type used isn't particularly significant, as long as it meets the desired standards. Note that the UK & Singapore are represented there, & neither is a potential customer for Gripen.

 

[divedeep]

Each course typically comprises three IPs and a group of test pilot students. The ETPS is an international organisation and this year the seven Gripen students are drawn from the UK, Netherlands, Pakistan, Singapore and Switzerland.

i think JF-17 revenue may help PAF to purchase 1-2 squadron of 4.5 generation western MRCA... Azerbaijan has confirmed order of 26 JF-17 worth 280+ million dollars plus more orders may gradually come from different countries..

The million dollar question: Does the PAF even have the proverbial cash to fork out for 30+ non Chinese/Russian MRCA given existing JF-17, J-10, F-16 procurements and does it want to share the IAF's interesting logistical experience with its aircraft types?

 

[tphuang]

Each course typically comprises three IPs and a group of test pilot students. The ETPS is an international organisation and this year the seven Gripen students are drawn from the UK, Netherlands, Pakistan, Singapore and Switzerland.

i think JF-17 revenue may help PAF to purchase 1-2 squadron of 4.5 generation western MRCA... Azerbaijan has confirmed order of 26 JF-17 worth 280+ million dollars plus more orders may gradually come from different countries..

are you serious? Think about how much of the contracts go to the suppliers (read Chinese). Who are going to make their profit. And then, the remaining will probably be split 50-50 between China and Pakistan. And the amount of money it would cost to order those 250 JF-17s.

And besides, the next variant of J-10 will be just as good as any of these so called 4.5 generation western MRCA.

 

[yess]

are you serious? Think about how much of the contracts go to the suppliers (read Chinese). Who are going to make their profit. And then, the remaining will probably be split 50-50 between China and Pakistan. And the amount of money it would cost to order those 250 JF-17s.

And besides, the next variant of J-10 will be just as good as any of these so called 4.5 generation western MRCA.

what i meant was that its up to the customer which country they wanna approach for their orders.. Azerbijian chose PAC for their 26 JF-17 because due to the fact that pakistani version in cooperate western tech, and i think most likely Egypt will chose FC-1 and thus china will get 100% profit? and then there will be some countries who will chose both pakistani and chinse version and both will get 50-50 profit.. please correct me if i am wrong.. but as for Azerbaijan jf-17 package pakistan will get almost 100% profit..

 

[Feanor]

And besides, the next variant of J-10 will be just as good as any of these so called 4.5 generation western MRCA.

We won't know until we see it. However we do know that the west is in the middle of moving to th 5th generation.