how is pakistan going to get all of the profit if it doesn't even have the assembly capacity for its own JF-17s? Do you think China is going to produce those fighters if they don't make money off them? As for the details of sales, someone else will have to weigh in here.
Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
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No body knows the exact details of sales & exports, except for the officials of course.
To some account, the export variant of JF-17 by Pakistan may not be completely produced at the PAC. The aircraft building might take place at CAC while PAC will put the western (or whatever) avionics & weapons system on it. This 'may' at least be true in the early stages which may last for quite a time.
In case of Pakistan, the contract suppliers (excluding Chinese) might be even bigger headache as some of them would be western. Unlike China they would be pushing for quick profit, plus rejecting sales to anti-Western customers.
To some account, the export variant of JF-17 by Pakistan may not be completely produced at the PAC. The aircraft building might take place at CAC while PAC will put the western (or whatever) avionics & weapons system on it. This 'may' at least be true in the early stages which may last for quite a time.
In case of Pakistan, the contract suppliers (excluding Chinese) might be even bigger headache as some of them would be western. Unlike China they would be pushing for quick profit, plus rejecting sales to anti-Western customers.
There is no such thing as 100% profit in this deal. The money would split between CAC & PAC regardless of who is selling. On the other hand China would technically get bigger chunk because much of the supplies will come from China.
China to provide Pakistan four AWACS aircrafts
Updated at: 1512 PST, Friday, September 05, 2008
ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshall Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed on Friday said China would provide four AWACS aircrafts to Pakistan for the purpose of aerial surveillance, adding an agreement in this regard has been signed by the two countires.
Talking to Geo News, he said talks were also underway to purchase FC-20 aircrafts from China and added 30 to 40 planes would be provided to Pakistan under the agreement signed by China and Pakistan.
Air chief Marshall further said four such aircrafts were being also acquired from Sweden for aerial surveillance.
http://www.geo.tv/9-5-2008/24238.htm
Updated at: 1512 PST, Friday, September 05, 2008
ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshall Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed on Friday said China would provide four AWACS aircrafts to Pakistan for the purpose of aerial surveillance, adding an agreement in this regard has been signed by the two countires.
Talking to Geo News, he said talks were also underway to purchase FC-20 aircrafts from China and added 30 to 40 planes would be provided to Pakistan under the agreement signed by China and Pakistan.
Air chief Marshall further said four such aircrafts were being also acquired from Sweden for aerial surveillance.
http://www.geo.tv/9-5-2008/24238.htm
So why would PAF go for two different versions of AWACS? Wouldnt that had to the over all logistic costs of maintaining two different platforms intended for the same role. Cost effective solution would have been if we would have gone for the Saab2000 Erieye and gradually increased its numbers.
Chinese AWACs are coming with some degree of Transfer of Technology (don't know at what leve), plus Pakistan can acquire full ToT & export license from China as well. In addition, they would be risk free during any war or conflict time from any sort of sanctions.
They would be easily operatable with JF-17s & FC-20s (J-10s) and may be even F-7s[?].
While i have no disagreement over what you have written, my question was solely related to a single issue that i highlighted in my previous post, which is the cost factor for supporting and maintaining two different platforms for the same role and that too for an already budget constraint air force? Is it a feasble option that we link the F-16s with erieye while we link the J-10 and JF-17 with the chinese AWAC?
dude this topic has been discussed to death in defence-pk and you must be aware of it if you really are IceCold from defence-pk.
both AEW&CS have their own specialty like Erieye being a full multi role platform and ZDK-03 a more of a air to air with better capability in this aspect.. Erieye will be also used on our western borders... its a better option then putting all eggs in one basket...
First of all this topic has not been put to death because its never discussed altogether. Also its not like one platform has an X ability and other has Y ability. Its simple erieye can perform both roles or are you suggesting that it cant. I am simply talking about the cost and yes with two platforms it will get higher and certainly not advisable for an airforce that has to lend money from the US to upgrade its F-16s.
Strictly speaking on economic basis I would say "no" but then I don't know the PAF's budget for now & future. Guys at the PAF would certainly have done their maths.
It would have been more feasible if all aircrafts were linked with single AEW&Cs but in case of Pakistan keeping all aircrafts dependent on western AEW&Cs might be bit risky. There will always be the risk of "what ifs?"
On the technical side I don't know if there are any problems with integrating JF-17 & J-10 with ERIEYEs. If there are then the two main frontline fighters cannot be left orphaned from an AEW&Cs.
Lastly; I think Pakistan's Strategic Forces would trust a Chinese AEW&Cs flying over sensitive areas/facilities more then a western.
Thankyou for your response. Certainly i agree with what you have said. Your last line was a bit shocking as if i have understood it correctly the context in which you have mentioned it, is it really possible for a contractor to actually bug their products? That will give a huge blow to the company as no other nation would then go for their products ever again. I remember back some time, a similar concern was raised over the F-16s too that they might come buged.
Well the question is not whether contractor can bug the system or not. It is about "trust." Nevertheless, Pakistan has been deploying the F-16s for the security of nuclear assets since PAF got them.
export license? You are stepping ahead of yourself now.
I have not seen any evidence of that on the Chinese side.
Yeah I am just looking ahead
The point being we can at least think of such things with Chinese. With the west ... just for get it.Of course there is no evidence since there has been no move towards it.
According to ACM Tanveer Mehmood PAF has upgraded few of the Mirage fighters (thats Mirage III & V) for air-to-air refueling while the first tanker should arrive in a month or two.
He also said that the chances of American missiles on JF-17 are quite grim & PAF will look towards other sources, such as; Europe, France & even "Russia."
In addition PAF would like to accelerate on the FC-20 & missile deals (get them done ASAP).
[Source: DAWN News Tv Channel Interview, aired September 8th, 2008]
He also said that the chances of American missiles on JF-17 are quite grim & PAF will look towards other sources, such as; Europe, France & even "Russia."
In addition PAF would like to accelerate on the FC-20 & missile deals (get them done ASAP).
[Source: DAWN News Tv Channel Interview, aired September 8th, 2008]
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see, I can see the point of getting European missiles, but going for Russian missiles just make no sense to me. PLAAF has plenty of experience with that, and they are generally overhyped.
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Well that is what he said unless he had a tongue slip. On the other hand we do no of the French deal.
Pakistan cites anti-terrorism need for F-16s
Published: Sunday, 14 September, 2008, 02:18 AM Doha Time
WASHINGTON: Pakistan uses F-16 fighters to support a campaign against border militants and needs upgrades to be able to fly at night, a Pakistani official said yesterday.
The official underlined equipment needs and listed recent achievements fighting Al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents ahead of a US congressional hearing next week that will examine the utility of F-16s in US ally Pakistan’s war on terrorism.
Pakistan has flown nearly 100 missions during three weeks in August that produced some 500-550 Taliban casualties.
“These missions have been very focused, and since air power is always effective, the Taliban are very much upset about this and have retaliated,” said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
“This campaign will last for some time,” he told a small group of reporters.
The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia will hold a hearing on Tuesday and grill Bush administration officials on the F-16 program with Pakistan and its utility in counterterrorism operations against Al Qaeda and Taliban extremists.
The title of the hearing — “Defeating Al Qaeda’s Air Force: Pakistan’s F-16 Programme in the Fight Against Terrorism” - betrays lawmakers’ skepticism and belief that Pakistan wants the advanced fighters to deploy against rival India, an analyst said.
In July, two senior Democratic Party lawmakers asked the Bush administration not to shift $226.5mn in US counterterrorism aid to Pakistan to upgrade Pakistani F-16 fighters, saying they feared the plan diverted cash from more urgent counterterrorism efforts.
The Pakistani official said well-funded and well-armed militants had dug in with anti-aircraft guns that made it risky to use helicopters to support the army’s fight against militant havens in the northwestern Bajaur region.
Pakistani forces were “very much handicapped” by the lack of equipment to enable the F-16s to fly and fight at night, giving the militants the ability to regroup after daytime encounters, said the official.
“We are blind and they are moving at will,” he said.
The debate takes place against the backdrop of long-standing US criticism that Pakistan has not done enough to fight militants hiding in remote corners of that country and staging attacks against US and Nato troops in Afghanistan.
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=241387&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23
Published: Sunday, 14 September, 2008, 02:18 AM Doha Time
WASHINGTON: Pakistan uses F-16 fighters to support a campaign against border militants and needs upgrades to be able to fly at night, a Pakistani official said yesterday.
The official underlined equipment needs and listed recent achievements fighting Al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents ahead of a US congressional hearing next week that will examine the utility of F-16s in US ally Pakistan’s war on terrorism.
Pakistan has flown nearly 100 missions during three weeks in August that produced some 500-550 Taliban casualties.
“These missions have been very focused, and since air power is always effective, the Taliban are very much upset about this and have retaliated,” said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
“This campaign will last for some time,” he told a small group of reporters.
The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia will hold a hearing on Tuesday and grill Bush administration officials on the F-16 program with Pakistan and its utility in counterterrorism operations against Al Qaeda and Taliban extremists.
The title of the hearing — “Defeating Al Qaeda’s Air Force: Pakistan’s F-16 Programme in the Fight Against Terrorism” - betrays lawmakers’ skepticism and belief that Pakistan wants the advanced fighters to deploy against rival India, an analyst said.
In July, two senior Democratic Party lawmakers asked the Bush administration not to shift $226.5mn in US counterterrorism aid to Pakistan to upgrade Pakistani F-16 fighters, saying they feared the plan diverted cash from more urgent counterterrorism efforts.
The Pakistani official said well-funded and well-armed militants had dug in with anti-aircraft guns that made it risky to use helicopters to support the army’s fight against militant havens in the northwestern Bajaur region.
Pakistani forces were “very much handicapped” by the lack of equipment to enable the F-16s to fly and fight at night, giving the militants the ability to regroup after daytime encounters, said the official.
“We are blind and they are moving at will,” he said.
The debate takes place against the backdrop of long-standing US criticism that Pakistan has not done enough to fight militants hiding in remote corners of that country and staging attacks against US and Nato troops in Afghanistan.
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=241387&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23
US Congressional committee plans hearing on F-16 sale
By Anwar Iqbal
WASHINGTON, Sept 13: A US congressional panel has called a hearing on the Bush administration’s decision to sell F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, probing allegations that Islamabad is using US anti-terrorism funds to buy weapons that can only be used against India.
The title of the hearing —“Defeating Al Qaeda’s Air Force: Pakistan’s F-16 Programme in the Fight Against Terrorism” — indicates that the programme may face strong criticism from US lawmakers.
The hearing was called by Congressman Gary Ackerman, a New York Democrat, who chairs the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia.
Last week, Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama also accused Pakistan of using US anti-terrorism funds for “preparing for a war against India”.
On Sept 16, the House sub-committee will seek witness testimony about the complete scope of the F-16 programme with Pakistan, including the number of planes, updates made to the existing planes, proposed armaments, schedule of delivery and source of payment. It will also probe how Pakistan has so far used US foreign military financing (FMF) for counter-terrorism and law-enforcement activities against Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
“The sub-committee will seek testimony on how these planes contribute to Pakistan’s efforts in the fight against terrorism and extremism, how the use of additional FMF to pay for mid-life updates to Pakistan’s existing F-16 fleet enhances those efforts and whether the sub-committee should expect further requests to use FMF provided to Pakistan for support of the F-16 programme,” said Mr Ackerman.
The sub-committee is also expected to examine what counter-terrorism equipment or programmes were foregone as a result of the Bush administration’s request on July 16 to use counter-terrorism funds for financing mid-life updates of Pakistan’s aging F-16 fleet. The panel will also look at how the F-16 programme fits into the broader US strategy in the fight against terrorism as well as into the overall US relationship with Pakistan.
By Anwar Iqbal
WASHINGTON, Sept 13: A US congressional panel has called a hearing on the Bush administration’s decision to sell F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, probing allegations that Islamabad is using US anti-terrorism funds to buy weapons that can only be used against India.
The title of the hearing —“Defeating Al Qaeda’s Air Force: Pakistan’s F-16 Programme in the Fight Against Terrorism” — indicates that the programme may face strong criticism from US lawmakers.
The hearing was called by Congressman Gary Ackerman, a New York Democrat, who chairs the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia.
Last week, Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama also accused Pakistan of using US anti-terrorism funds for “preparing for a war against India”.
On Sept 16, the House sub-committee will seek witness testimony about the complete scope of the F-16 programme with Pakistan, including the number of planes, updates made to the existing planes, proposed armaments, schedule of delivery and source of payment. It will also probe how Pakistan has so far used US foreign military financing (FMF) for counter-terrorism and law-enforcement activities against Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
“The sub-committee will seek testimony on how these planes contribute to Pakistan’s efforts in the fight against terrorism and extremism, how the use of additional FMF to pay for mid-life updates to Pakistan’s existing F-16 fleet enhances those efforts and whether the sub-committee should expect further requests to use FMF provided to Pakistan for support of the F-16 programme,” said Mr Ackerman.
The sub-committee is also expected to examine what counter-terrorism equipment or programmes were foregone as a result of the Bush administration’s request on July 16 to use counter-terrorism funds for financing mid-life updates of Pakistan’s aging F-16 fleet. The panel will also look at how the F-16 programme fits into the broader US strategy in the fight against terrorism as well as into the overall US relationship with Pakistan.