How close has Australia come to war

t68

t68

Well-Known Member
Regarding Indonesia: 'green water navy
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3897

A comment was made on how close that Australia and Indonesia nearly came to war with each other.

In the time between confrontation in the early1960s and East Timor in 1999, has Australia felt if there was a time when we would come to war or a smaller skirmish take place?

Also has there been any incidents between the defense force of both nations, where the have traded blows with each other?

At the time Indonesia invaded East Timor, was Australia in a position military it could have done anything about it?

Regards
 
StevoJH

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
t68 said:
Regarding Indonesia: 'green water navy
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3897

A comment was made on how close that Australia and Indonesia nearly came to war with each other.

In the time between confrontation in the early1960s and East Timor in 1999, has Australia felt if there was a time when we would come to war or a smaller skirmish take place?

Also has there been any incidents between the defense force of both nations, where the have traded blows with each other?

At the time Indonesia invaded East Timor, was Australia in a position military it could have done anything about it?

Regards
Click to expand...
Indonesia invaded East Timor in 1975, this was just 3 years after Australia pulled out of Vietnam, so "politically" i doubt anything could be justified, as for militarily, i don't know.

In 1999 on the other hand, the militia's that INTERFET were fighting, were armed and trained by the Indonesian military. Could a war have started? Well, gf answered that in the other thread, quite possibly. I assume we could have prevented resupply of their garrison in west timor, with the RAAF and RAN, the situation on timor itself however, might be different, at least while the Indonesians supplies held out, depending on the size of the Indonesian garrison.
 
J

Jecito

New Member
At the time Indonesia invaded East Timor, was Australia in a position military it could have done anything about it?

I'm sure the F-111's and Hornets would have deterred the Indonesians. A few bombs dropped on strategic locations like Jakarta and they would have packed up and left quick smart. Collins class subs and FFG's blockading Indonesian ports. SAS, Paras and Commandos could be deployed as well. Pretty much nothing militarily the Indonesian's could have done to retaliate. The capability was and still is there, all that was needed is the political will.
 
O

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If timor had of escalated, the incident would have been very difficult for both Indonesia and Australia. I know that Australia would have prevailed in timor, but what would have happened in other Indo states such as Ache? There were and are problems there as well. Would Ache blow up into another conflict, with the people there expecting international intervention as well? The indo govt would have to react to sepreratists there. That would put australia on the spot, esspesially if human the rights flag was waved.

As for East Timor, as pointed out already, the RAAF and Navy would have taken care of Indo re-sup, and the Indo Navy would have suffered embarresing losses. On the ground, the TNI would have been easy prey for night ambushes.

On another note, a good friend of mine was in Jakarta,(as a WO1) over seeing the training of Indonesian infantry. One story he releyed to me was the chilling sight of 7 inf battalions line dancing! he reckoned not one soldier was out of step. It turned out that line dancing was a warm up for marshel arts training, and again he said no one was out of step. In the field the indo infantry was not so good. The simply dont have the budget to train such numbers of infantry to a high standard. rations and ammo alone cost way to much to see their infantry train for long periods of time. Their lower ranks are too frightened of the high ranks to show inititive. Their night fighting ability is woeful. And we train them for their day tactics, so know what we are up against.
 
B

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
old faithful said:
If timor had of escalated, the incident would have been very difficult for both Indonesia and Australia. I know that Australia would have prevailed in timor, but what would have happened in other Indo states such as Ache? There were and are problems there as well. Would Ache blow up into another conflict, with the people there expecting international intervention as well? The indo govt would have to react to sepreratists there. That would put australia on the spot, esspesially if human the rights flag was waved.

As for East Timor, as pointed out already, the RAAF and Navy would have taken care of Indo re-sup, and the Indo Navy would have suffered embarresing losses. On the ground, the TNI would have been easy prey for night ambushes.

On another note, a good friend of mine was in Jakarta,(as a WO1) over seeing the training of Indonesian infantry. One story he releyed to me was the chilling sight of 7 inf battalions line dancing! he reckoned not one soldier was out of step. It turned out that line dancing was a warm up for marshel arts training, and again he said no one was out of step. In the field the indo infantry was not so good. The simply dont have the budget to train such numbers of infantry to a high standard. rations and ammo alone cost way to much to see their infantry train for long periods of time. Their lower ranks are too frightened of the high ranks to show inititive. Their night fighting ability is woeful. And we train them for their day tactics, so know what we are up against.
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I concur with OF that an escalation of the crisis would have been bad for both countries but for different reasons. I believe we had the ability to inflict far more casualties on the Indo's then they had the ability to inflict on us through superior firepower and tactics. In the end CDF prevailed, thankfully.

As a snapshot Tindal in 1999 was a very busy place, 2 Hornet sqns, tankers and a "ghost" sqn of -111s ready to go. Indo's made plenty of noise about unauthorised flights through their airspace during those years but were unable to do anything about it. Could have been -111 recon birds or Navy/Army Helo's or clean C-130's or all of them who can say? ;) Bouncing an unarmed flight of Hornets in transit to exercise with authorisation to proceed through Indo airspace was a little bizarre and I am not quite sure what the point of it was.

Anyway I think the Indo brass had the good sense to realise that an all out stoush would end badly for them and reigned the militia in.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
I was referring to the 1975 invasion of East Timor; I know the SAS was on stand by to evacuate the journalist, but unfortunately they were not sent in for what ever reason I don’t know.

Being three years after Vietnam how run down was defense?

I was only very young at the time and have no recollection of it, is there anyone old enough here that remembers what was the mood here in Aus?

Having read a small account of what happened, it appears that the government of the day seemed to be ok with it happening, but that is for another forum to discuss politics

Regards
 
S

Stryker001

Banned Member
Admin: Again, you're posting off topic comments to topical posts. You appear to have ignored the request made on the post deleted in the last 24 hrs.

You've had posts reported by other Members. This is regarded as a warning. If you don't change your approach you risk being banned for a period of time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

Stryker001

Banned Member
Admin: This is the second time you've posted comments that are nonsensical to the topic.

Take this as a first warning as you've ignored the deletion made in the last 24 hrs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
barra said:
Bouncing an unarmed flight of Hornets in transit to exercise with authorisation to proceed through Indo airspace was a little bizarre and I am not quite sure what the point of it was.
Click to expand...

A face saving exercise, so that Indonesia can pretend it actually has a combat capability...

A pair of non-upgraded F-5 Tigers bouncing a 4 ship Hornet flight (and I do NOT believe they would have been entirely unarmed...) doesn't sound like a good idea to me... :)
 
B

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
A pair of non-upgraded F-5 Tigers bouncing a 4 ship Hornet flight (and I do NOT believe they would have been entirely unarmed...) doesn't sound like a good idea to me... :)
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Believe it my friend, we don't want to appear to be to aggresive to our neighbours you know!! Live missiles are only ever carried when there is intent to use them and same-same for the cannon. I don't want to go to far into weapon loads but there are obvious security implications if an armed aircraft in-transit is forced to divert to a foreign airfield. It is bad enough with just CATM's.

Still would have been good to give our Indonesian friends a surprise. "So you want to play do you...." ;)
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
barra said:
Believe it my friend, we don't want to appear to be to aggresive to our neighbours you know!! Live missiles are only ever carried when there is intent to use them and same-same for the cannon. I don't want to go to far into weapon loads but there are obvious security implications if an armed aircraft in-transit is forced to divert to a foreign airfield. It is bad enough with just CATM's.

Still would have been good to give our Indonesian friends a surprise. "So you want to play do you...." ;)
Click to expand...
I would have thought they would have a small amount of ammo for self defence only.
It would not look to good if the got bounced and could not defend themselves.
The RAN has got a small amount of ammo for self defence when in transit to
main armament base's as they are no longer aloud to replensih in Sydney harbour in case of an explosion.
 
2S1

2S1

Banned Member
Given Indonesia has a bigger reproducing producing population, potentially a more vibrant economy and a resource rich/population negative target to its south...

Would Australia ever consider a nuclear defence?
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
barra said:
Believe it my friend, we don't want to appear to be to aggresive to our neighbours you know!! Live missiles are only ever carried when there is intent to use them and same-same for the cannon. I don't want to go to far into weapon loads but there are obvious security implications if an armed aircraft in-transit is forced to divert to a foreign airfield. It is bad enough with just CATM's.

Still would have been good to give our Indonesian friends a surprise. "So you want to play do you...." ;)
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the cannon can be "politically deniable"... :)

I notice however we are one of the VERY few Countries that fly their $40m fighter aircraft ANYWHERE without arming them, officially...

Even flying here, the US has at least one of it's aircraft armed...
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
2S1 said:
Given Indonesia has a bigger reproducing producing population, potentially a more vibrant economy and a resource rich/population negative target to its south...

Would Australia ever consider a nuclear defence?
Click to expand...
It was considered and abandoned in the 60's...
 
icelord

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
2S1 said:
Given Indonesia has a bigger reproducing producing population, potentially a more vibrant economy and a resource rich/population negative target to its south...

Would Australia ever consider a nuclear defence?
Click to expand...
Doubt it
There was an article a few mths ago regarding Inodnesias attempt to get long range missiles from USSR back in 70s, the USSR rejected it in fear of another Cuban missile crisis.
 
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