Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

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niteshkjain

New Member
interesting, the part on ATV sounds entirely different from what we've been hearing about it. And it's hard to imagine you would develop a SSBN as a modified SSN. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Well I agree with you to some extent in a way that SSBN primary job is to lurk some where outside the conflict zone where as a SSN will be always present at the conflict zone. But both doesn't come without torpedo tubes. So if an ATV is carrying the sagarika then it can be a SSBN if it is carrying BrahMos then can act as SSN role. The interesting part will be the torpedo tubes, if it carries the 655 mm heavy torpedos also that will be interesting addition.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
This is an interesting move, clear indication towards interest in nuclear powered carrier
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...-men-on-french-aircraft-carrier_10088477.html

August 25th, 2008 - 8:01 pm ICT by IANS

New Delhi, Aug 25 (IANS) The Indian Navy, poised to acquire its biggest aircraft carrier with the Admiral Gorshkov, will soon position its men on the French Navy’s aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle to get exposure to big vessels and how they function, a senior official said.”We will position our men on the French naval ship to study large ships. This would also be an exposure for them in terms of how large carriers work,” said the naval official.

“The nuclear powered Charles de Gaulle would be good exposure for the Indian naval officials as there are many issues, like nuclear propulsion, involved in operating a large aircraft carrier at sea,” the official added.The training on board the French aircraft carrier will begin in October next year.

A 45,000-tonne carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, renamed INS Vikramaditya, was to be delivered in late 2007 or early 2008 but this has now been pushed back to 2012.

By 2022, the Indian navy aims to have a fleet of 160-plus ships, three aircraft carriers and 400 aircraft of different types.

The Indian Navy has increased cooperation with the leading navies of the world, including the Royal Navy of Britain, the US Navy and the French Navy.

Earlier this month, the Indian Navy conducted a combined patrol with the French Navy off the Horn of Africa to understand the situation in the area.

In May this year, the Indian Navy held a bilateral exercise called Varuna with the French Navy off India’s east coast. The French Navy had fielded its Landing Platform Dock-Mistral.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
Guys this needs attention:

Deccan Herald - Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat

Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat
DH News Service, New Delhi:
In what may change the strategic complexities in the Indian Ocean region, China is developing at least three aircraft carriers, the first of which is expected to be ready by 2012.


The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has also invested heavily in constructing the replenishment vessels.

The first Chinese carrier will be, Varyug – a 32,000 tonnes Admiral Kuznetsov class Soviet warship. Its ownership was handed over to Ukraine after USSR’s disintegration.

China is understood to have purchased the carrier from Ukraine. “It is expected to be ready by 2012.” said a navy officer. While aircraft carriers give the PLAN increased mobility in the Indian Ocean region and enables Chinese maritime activities, Beijing is also constructing six replenishment vessels that can provide fuel and other supplies to the deployed PLAN battleships. The first one’s capacity is more than the India tanker, INS Aditya.

Intense ship building activities are on in Hainan Island off Chinese southern coast, where nuclear ballistic missile submarines are being developed. At the moment, PLAN is playing the strategic game as it is not yet ready to venture out. But it is in a preparatory mode, he said, adding PLAN did not have air support. For comparison, the lone Indian aircraft carrier INS Virat is undergoing a refit and repair work as the government has decided to extend Virat’s life by another five-six years due to the delays in procuring the Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov.

Apparently Navy Chief Admiral Susheel Kumar’s last year’s public outburst against the Russian long hand tactics paid off with Moscow expediting the refit work and price renegotiations, he said.

The indigenous carrier, Air Defence Ship, is also under construction and expected to be ready for induction by 2015 only.


To me seems to be just a cry to get more budget.
 

2S1

Banned Member
It does indeed remind us of the Charlie class SSN in the 90s though in time it was returned and I've never really understood what contribution that made back then. So now the IN will operate an almost new Akula but will it really help to make the secretive ATV programme advance ? I'm sceptical, unless the ATV will eventually prove to be a clone of the Russian SSN...

cheers
Agreed.

I have no doubt using the Akula will provide invaluable training and introduce another capability to the IN.

But the sooner the IN gets its own ATV design in the water, the better. SSN warfare I hear is all about technology, developing doctrine and knowing your own ability. Using someone else's boats surely does not aid that.
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
India Today has article on page 46 on INS chakra, next year is going to be eventful

http://emagazine.digitaltoday.in/indiatodayenglish/01092008/home.aspx

*ATV to be launched in Visakhapatnam on Jan 26, 2009
* The Chakra to be inducted into the navy on Aug 15 , 2009
* ATV is a modified Akula-1 class submarine , the aim is to field 3 ATV by 2015 ,
* ATV will be the first submarine equipped with Brahmos missile and the indigenous 700 km range K-15 missile ( 12 K-15 or 16 Brahmos )
* The Chakra is a modified Akula-II class submarine
* ATV is powered by a single indigenously build nuclear reactor.
* Three ATV is under construction , hull fabrication and integration is completed on the first ATV , it will be on trail for 2 years
Do take care when using names with russian subs, as russian names and NATO names are easily mixed up. For example:
NATO codename Akula I/II = Russian Project 971 Shuka-B = SSN
NATO codename Typhoon = Russian Project 941 Akula = SSBN

Poject 885 Yasen / Graney Severodinsk class is a new attack submarine design that is a further derivative of the Project 971 Shuka-B (NATO:Akula).
Bharat Rakshak states that India will lease 2 Akula and that the ATV will be based on the Severodinsk and/or Akula. I take that to mean 'a derivative of Pojrect 885, which is itself a derivative of project 971'
That means ATV is an SSN. Based on drawings I've seen of proposed russian SSK, it would expect it to launch Brahmos from a VL-launcher. In SSKs there are usually 8 tubes but ATV is bigger and perhaps that gives room for 2 sets of 8. However, these cannot fire K15 (larger diameter missile). So if ATV also fires K15, then it must be that a different set of VL launchers will be fitted, which implies 2 versions of ATV (one SSN and one SSB). This seems unlikely. There are better design for a boomer available from Russian.
 

2S1

Banned Member
Do take care when using names with russian subs, as russian names and NATO names are easily mixed up. For example:
NATO codename Akula I/II = Russian Project 971 Shuka-B = SSN
NATO codename Typhoon = Russian Project 941 Akula = SSBN

Poject 885 Yasen / Graney Severodinsk class is a new attack submarine design that is a further derivative of the Project 971 Shuka-B (NATO:Akula).
Bharat Rakshak states that India will lease 2 Akula and that the ATV will be based on the Severodinsk and/or Akula. I take that to mean 'a derivative of Pojrect 885, which is itself a derivative of project 971'
That means ATV is an SSN. Based on drawings I've seen of proposed russian SSK, it would expect it to launch Brahmos from a VL-launcher. In SSKs there are usually 8 tubes but ATV is bigger and perhaps that gives room for 2 sets of 8. However, these cannot fire K15 (larger diameter missile). So if ATV also fires K15, then it must be that a different set of VL launchers will be fitted, which implies 2 versions of ATV (one SSN and one SSB). This seems unlikely. There are better design for a boomer available from Russian.


So you are following the old Soviet concept of SSN warfare?
 

niteshkjain

New Member
niteshkjain, sorry if I sound doubtful or disrespectful, but I'll believe when I see it. I think tphuang's post clarifies.
I didn't mean to say that u should agree, was telling you to just see the dates in it. Will any way come to know about it in some months. :)
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Well I agree with you to some extent in a way that SSBN primary job is to lurk some where outside the conflict zone where as a SSN will be always present at the conflict zone. But both doesn't come without torpedo tubes. So if an ATV is carrying the sagarika then it can be a SSBN if it is carrying BrahMos then can act as SSN role. The interesting part will be the torpedo tubes, if it carries the 655 mm heavy torpedos also that will be interesting addition.
I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.

Guys this needs attention:

Deccan Herald - Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat

Chinese aircraft carriers may pose security threat
DH News Service, New Delhi:
In what may change the strategic complexities in the Indian Ocean region, China is developing at least three aircraft carriers, the first of which is expected to be ready by 2012.


The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has also invested heavily in constructing the replenishment vessels.

The first Chinese carrier will be, Varyug – a 32,000 tonnes Admiral Kuznetsov class Soviet warship. Its ownership was handed over to Ukraine after USSR’s disintegration.

China is understood to have purchased the carrier from Ukraine. “It is expected to be ready by 2012.” said a navy officer. While aircraft carriers give the PLAN increased mobility in the Indian Ocean region and enables Chinese maritime activities, Beijing is also constructing six replenishment vessels that can provide fuel and other supplies to the deployed PLAN battleships. The first one’s capacity is more than the India tanker, INS Aditya.

Intense ship building activities are on in Hainan Island off Chinese southern coast, where nuclear ballistic missile submarines are being developed. At the moment, PLAN is playing the strategic game as it is not yet ready to venture out. But it is in a preparatory mode, he said, adding PLAN did not have air support. For comparison, the lone Indian aircraft carrier INS Virat is undergoing a refit and repair work as the government has decided to extend Virat’s life by another five-six years due to the delays in procuring the Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov.

Apparently Navy Chief Admiral Susheel Kumar’s last year’s public outburst against the Russian long hand tactics paid off with Moscow expediting the refit work and price renegotiations, he said.

The indigenous carrier, Air Defence Ship, is also under construction and expected to be ready for induction by 2015 only.
I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?
 

2S1

Banned Member
I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.


I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?
Mod edit: Text deleted. Kindly do not make comments which are derogatory and/or intended to offend people or cultures. Flamebaiting is not appreciated.
-Preceptor
 
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niteshkjain

New Member
I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.
Your point is correct, but seeing the IN budget, and the reports coming in, they might go for it. But any way the specs are not out there is lot of confusion, but more or less ATV will be SSBN not a SSN that role can be done by INS chakra.

I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?
No it seems to be more of a news to make the bureaucracy listen to genuine needs. IN is operating carriers from a long time and they obviously would like to keep that in this way only.
 

funtz

New Member
Mod edit: Quoted texted deleted and replaced with a moderator comment.
-Preceptor
India and Pakistan are more content to procure whatever they see fit for their security situation, although the two nations have to respond to each other, they are still between a ceasefire situation, hopefully situation will improve in the coming decade.

I haven't heard any navy that uses SSBN as a SSN.
I don't really see the point of something like this. Is IN really trying to match PLAN's expansion?
PRC is seen as a threat which is actively involved with enemy states and has influence around the neighbourhood, there are no options, but to beef up the military services accordingly, does not mean that they construct a 1000 boats and 100 submarines.

PRC military expansion should result in a lot of sales around the region

The technology demonstrator of the ATV SSBN will be coming out, followed by trials and then depending on how long the trials take an induction into the navy.
 

2S1

Banned Member
Mod edit: Text deleted. Kindly do not make comments which are derogatory and/or intended to offend people or cultures. Flamebaiting is not appreciated.
-Preceptor
I don't think the observation I made was in bad taste or disregard.

I appreciate the Moderator's view and judgement here; but I ask you to undertand the worthy conversation and argument. Especially when we all consider the mass-plenty overt politically motivated views currently displayed elsewhere on this website, your response here does seem rather disproportionate.
 
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niteshkjain

New Member
This is an interesting move, doing policing in Africa also
http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=14719

In the wake of recent hijacks of ships on the Somalia coast and the threat to shipping line, Indian Navy has sent a proposal to the Indian government of having regular patrols in the Somalia waters, on the line of US naval patrols, which is now stationed there.

The letter was written after pirates took over a cargo ship, 'Iran Deynat' in Somalia on August 21. There were total 24 people in the ship including three Indians. The ship 'Iran Deynat' was sailing towards Somalia carrying cargo from Poland.

The proposal deal with the implications of having regular patrols in the area, and this could lead to quicker response by the Indian Navy in case of similar responses in the future. This could lead to unilateral action or even joint action against pirates.

The transitional federal government of Somalia has authorized the United Nations Security Council to permit other countries to enter Somalia waters to fight pirates. Somali coastal waters are among the most hazardous in the world, despite the presence of US navy patrols there.

The US and NATO warships have been patrolling off the Horn of Africa for years in an effort to crack down on piracy off Somalia, where a UN-backed transitional government is struggling to restore order after 15 years of near-anarchy.

navy sources:

1. the transitional federal government of Somalia has authorised the united nations security council to permit other countries to enter somali waters to fight piracy

2. keeping this in mind, the indian navy has sent a proposal to the indian govt regarding activity in somali waters after the recent incident of piracy happened

3. the proposals deal with the implications of having regular patrols in the area. this could lead to quicker response by the navy in case of similar responses in the future

4. this could lead to unilateral action or even joint action against pirates. there is an american naval task force there, for example
 

niteshkjain

New Member
This should surely help in speeding the ship building industry
http://finance.indiainfo.com/2008/09/04/0809041647_bae_india_building_ships.html

BAE Systems India, subsidiary of the Britain-based global defence company BAE Systems, is planning a foray into shipbuilding besides expanding operations in India with more joint ventures and partnerships, a top company official said here Thursday.

"We are open to shipbuilding and will explore it. Our team will start working on it from the year end," Julian Scopes, the newly appointed president of BAE Systems India, told reporters. "We are working out plans for more strategic tie-ups in India. We are no more an aircraft company," he added.

BAE has a partnership with the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in Bangalore since 1983. Scopes said BAE was waiting for the Indian government's clearance for its strategic tie-up with the auto giant Mahindra and Mahindra (MM) to manufacture heavy armed land vehicles besides artillery equipment.

"Once we get the consent of the Indian government, our shares in the company would go up from 26 percent to 49 percent. This will give us a better economic recognition," he said.

BAE is also working on more partnerships with the state-owned Indian firms involved in defence research and development. "We want to expand in India. We are now limited to selling Hawks and linked to other smaller programmes concerning defence sector," Scopes said.

The company delivered over 12 advanced jet trainers Hawk to the Indian Air Force (IAF) this year. Scopes, however, refused to comment on an incident where a Hawk trainer skidded off the runway.

By this month-end, the IAF is hopeful of getting 24 of these trainer jets to start its first advanced pilot training course. Under the deal, India is buying 24 Hawks off the shelf and remaining 42 fighters will be assembled at the HAL facility in Bangalore under technology transfer from BAE systems.

The first HAL built Hawk trainer was inducted by the IAF on Aug 15. BAE Systems and HAL are scheduled to complete the delivery of all 66 aircraft by 2011.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
are BAE going to buy a ship yard or just tie up with a ship yard? It wasn't clear in the artical
 

Rish

New Member
Sorry mods, this is an old article and the link is from another forum. I couldn't find a free copy of the article anywhere else, so I had to resort to using this. The article was originally written for forceindia.net

I didn't realize that the second IAC would be 64,000 tonnes. I know it is premature to ask, but is there any news on this?

Heres the link: http://www.indiandefenceforum.com/index.php?topic=10267.0

Indian Navy eyes three-dimensional force to project power and stability in IOR

By Prasun K. Sengupta

The Indian Navy (IN) in the next five years plans to deploy two potent carrier battle groups (CBG) to project power as well as act as a stabilising influence in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and beyond. The basic aim behind a powerful three-dimensional naval force, with the ‘blue-water element’ jumping from the present 40 per cent to 60 per cent, is to keep India’s primary area of interest in IOR under adequate surveillance and to ensure that economic activity is not hindered.

It is for this reason that the 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, was contracted for in January 2004 and was originally scheduled to be inducted into service by the IN by August 15 this year.

India has already paid around USD 460 million of the USD 974 million earmarked for Gorshkov’s refit under a fixed price contract. However, Moscow now wants an additional USD 1.2 billion to refurbish the aircraft carrier, as the Russian shipyard, Sevmashpredpriyatiye, near the city of Archangelsk, has to do recabling work of 2,400 km (as opposed to 800 km as per original estimates), with the vessel being readied for service only by 2011.

As things now stand, the Vikramaditya will have on board the Poima-E CMS comprising nine multi-function consoles, Podberezovik-ET1 long-range air/surface search radar and a Fregat-M2EM medium-range radar, all built by Salyut State Moscow Plant FSUE. Close-in air defence will be provided by four Kashtan-M systems, while medium-range air defence will be provided by 64 Altair 9M317ME medium-range surface-to-air missiles (SAM) mounted on four 16-cell vertical launchers.

To cater for the unforeseen unavailability of the Vikramaditya, the IN could contract state-owned Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) to undertake another refit of its ageing 28,000-tonne aircraft carrier INS Viraat in 2008 to take care of any contingency through to 2012. But this option makes sense only if the navy in the near future acquires up to 12 pre-owned but refurbished AV-8B Harrier V/STOL combat aircraft from the US Marine Corps and upgrades them. This move will, in turn, avert another crisis facing the navy, this being the steadily dwindling fleet of Sea Harrier FRS Mk51 V/STOL aircraft that now numbers less than 10.

Another option that needs to go hand-in-hand is for CSL to expedite con[/glow]struction of the first 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC), which as of now is due for delivery only by 2012, with a second, larger IAC (displacing 64,000 tonnes) following in 2017. The primary early warning sensors and on-board air defence systems of the IAC will be identical to that on board the Project 15A DDG (these being the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR active phased-array radar with four antennae and Barak-2 long-range SAMs).

In addition, twin OTOBreda 76-mm/62 main guns will be mounted. The IAC’s integrated platform management system, propulsion control system, automatic fire detection system, advanced power management system and battle damage control systems are all now being designed by L-3 MAPPS. Fincantieri (part of Italy’s Finmeccanica group) is designing and supplying the integrated propulsion system centered around four GE LM-2500 marine industrial gas turbines.

A third option for the IN (one that it prefers the most but is being prevented from voicing out due to political reasons) concerns the US offer, made late last year, to lease to India for a 10-year period the conventionally-fuelled aircraft carrier, the 81,780-ton USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63), with India in return committing to the off-the-shelf purchase of about 40 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and four EA-18G Growlers, six Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye AEW & C aircraft and up to 12 Boeing/BAE Systems T-45C Goshawk lead-in fighter trainers.

The US has also offered to supply the critical steam catapults for the second, bigger IAC to be built by CSL, which will enable the vessel to house all aircraft types acquired by the IN for conducting operations from the leased Kitty Hawk (in contrast, the Vikramaditya and the first IAC will have STOBAR configurations that preclude the need for a steam catapult for launching aircraft from the carriers’ decks).

If this option is exercised by India, the Kitty Hawk, which can accommodate 85 aircraft and helicopters (it is presently home ported in Yokosuka, Japan and will be decommissioned by the year’s end) will be subjected to a 15-month service life extension programme (SLEP) costing about USD 150 million, which will add another 10 years of service life to the vessel. At the same time, its on-board armaments suite will be upgraded to accommodate two Raytheon-built RIM-162 ESSM medium-range SAM launchers and a close-in weapons system comprising four RIM-116 RAM missile launchers and four Vulcan Phalanx 20mm gatling guns. The entire commercial transaction, if undertaken, will be channelled through the US’ Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract implementation process.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The 64000 ton figure is pure speculation. The Indian navy has not said anything about the size of any third carrier, AFAIK. If you read this article - http://www.indiandefenceforum.com/index.php?topic=12514.0 you will see that Admiral Mehta says nothing about either the size or delivery date (2017 is optimistic even for a carrier of the same design, BTW, let alone a much larger ship, necessarily of a new design), only saying that India will order another carrier.

Sengupta has a poor reputation. In this particular case, note this - "the US offer, made late last year, to lease to India for a 10-year period the conventionally-fuelled aircraft carrier, the 81,780-ton USS Kitty Hawk". There is no evidence for this claim. The US Secretary of Defence thought a reporter was joking when he was asked about it, in February this year. The story didn't even get an official denial for some time, because it was considered too silly, too obviously false, to be worth denying. The story began as a journalist speculating about the possibility of such a deal, & mutated on the internet into a story that the USA had made an offer. And yet Sengupta presents it as fact!
 
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