The Arjun Tank

[Chrom]

To Extern:

According to DOD Russian tank crews averaged firing 6 maingun rounds of ammunition, 3 day and 3 at night on a annual basis, this information is based up to the year 1998. My question to you is how has this changed, do they still only shoot annually and what is the average amount of ammunition. Also is dfferent according to regions, meaning Siberian based units would train more on a frequent basis.

May be only combat (not 14.5mm practice rounds) counted? Else it looks like unbelievable little training.

 

[Feanor]

1) According to follow -up information they have modernised 150 T-72 and 15 T-80 in 2007. However it was not Rogatka, but more simple modernisation, without French TI camera. They have explained further in 2008, that there is no sence in deep modernisation, and better to allocate more money for additional T-90A purchase, after scraping oldest T-55, T-64, T-72 for metall (done).

So all older T-72, and other old tanks have been scrapped already, and focus is going on replacement of remaining tanks with T-90A. Makes a lot more sense to me.

2) Yes, the number of 60 tank a year is problematic to re-equip one TD and one motor-rifle, but needed to note that:
- the part of tanks will be replaced with BMPTs

Has that been confirmed for sure? I really hope it doesn't go through, it doesn't look like a good idea to me. Also when will we see serial production of the BMPT. So far tank batallions have been getting T-90s only, with no BMPT replacement as far as I know, and I think I heard you or chrom mention earlier that the BMPT is supposed to be integrated organically on a platoon level.

- according to my calculation the allocated money is enough to produce 150 T-90A a year starting from 2009 (see T-90 thread). UVZ - is just a huge plant. I dont see any problem for UVZ to produce 150 or even 200 tanks a year if needed.

If we ignore inflation? Or did you take projected inflation into account?

 

[eckherl]

May be only combat (not 14.5mm practice rounds) counted? Else it looks like unbelievable little training.

I am going for a estimated 125mm training or service rounds.

 

[Chrom]

I am going for a estimated 125mm training or service rounds.

Then it might be true. Due to lack of funds russians try to preserve technic resources (including gun barrel life) as much as possible. This might well change in near future. However, for most training duties 14.5 round is enough and 125mm rounds are only used to confirm qualification.

 

[Chrom]

Has that been confirmed for sure? I really hope it doesn't go through, it doesn't look like a good idea to me. Also when will we see serial production of the BMPT. So far tank batallions have been getting T-90s only, with no BMPT replacement as far as I know, and I think I heard you or chrom mention earlier that the BMPT is supposed to be integrated organically on a platoon level.

Keep in mind, at projected BMP-T production rate within next few years, there will be not enough BMP-T to equip even 1 TD / motor-rifle. So most likely BMP-T will be first used for training and evaluation, likely including local conflict places like Chechnya.

If we ignore inflation? Or did you take projected inflation into account?

I think ignore inflation, since for obvious reason if inflation is higher than projected than tax's income will be also higher -> more money for military purchases -> same amount of tanks purchased as planned.

 

[Waylander]

Then it might be true. Due to lack of funds russians try to preserve technic resources (including gun barrel life) as much as possible. This might well change in near future. However, for most training duties 14.5 round is enough and 125mm rounds are only used to confirm qualification.

We had that discussion in the past, hadn't we?
I still say that 14,5 trainign round cannot be an effective substitute for real 125mm training rounds.
Firing the real ones gives you a whole new level of stress during a live fire exercise which is what one wants to achieve.
Otherwise one could fully rely on simulators and systems like MILES and AGDUS.

 

[Chrom]

We had that discussion in the past, hadn't we?
I still say that 14,5 trainign round cannot be an effective substitute for real 125mm training rounds.
Firing the real ones gives you a whole new level of stress during a live fire exercise which is what one wants to achieve.
Otherwise one could fully rely on simulators and systems like MILES and AGDUS.

Several real rounds then are enough to get used to stress. Either way, i dont argue what more live rounds would be better. The question however, how much real training benefit it would bring. I still think not much.

 

[eckherl]

Several real rounds then are enough to get used to stress. Either way, i dont argue what more live rounds would be better. The question however, how much real training benefit it would bring. I still think not much.

Chrom,

You do not see the benefits of firing live maingun rounds, why, a tank is a different acting beast when firing live projectiles, units do act different when training, it builds unit cohesion and brings on other aspects, for example logistical support. Do you realize on how hard it is to conduct a passage of lines due to a unit being out beans, bullets and diesel, it takes alot of practice to hand off a battle to a fresh unit because you are out of logistics, especially if you have a persistant opponent. You would be surprised on how fast you can go thru a combat load of ammunition, this is just one of the many things that you have to practice doing or you are going to get your unit killed.

 

[nevidimka]

recently there was news of a proposed Russian-Indian collaboration on designing and building the next generation tank modelled after the brahmos missile project.
How is this development carrying on? and if this collaborations gain more pace, what does it hold for Arjun's future?

Also is this new proposed tank the T95 tank?

 

[Feanor]

The answer is, nobody knows. The T-95 isn't even an official designation. Iirc the official one is Object 775. Again it was supposed to be shown this year for the first time but we're still waiting and no news have come on it.

 

[nevidimka]

I'm starting to think the The russian proposal for a joint venture with the Indians is indeed for the T-95 tank.
Perhaps currently the Russian MD is not giving the tank a big priority, and the increased amount of T-90 productions indicate that.

 

[niteshkjain]

Guys some info about pinaka and what's in store for future:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/13pinaka.htm

India tests multi-barrel rocket launcher


August 13, 2008 14:24 IST
Last Updated: August 13, 2008 15:46 IST

India's indigenously developed multi-barrel rocket launcher weapon system, 'Pinaka' was successfully tested on Wednesday jointly by the army and scientists from a defence base at Chandipur-on-sea, about 15 km from Balasore, Orissa.

'Pinaka', which has undergone several tough tests since 1995 and in its advance stage of development, were put to sample trials at the Proof Experimental Establishment by army and scientists from Defence Research and Development Organisation, defence sources said.

"The objective of the trials was to assess its stability in flight as well as accuracy and consistency," a defence official said, adding that the MBRL, capable of acting as a force-multiplier, can gradually replace the current artillery system.

The first round of trial, conducted at 1214 hours, yielded the desired results, PXE director Maj-Gen Anup Malhotra said.

The tests coincided with the golden jubilee celebrations of the DRDO.

The sophisticated 'Pinaka' is an area weapon system aimed at supplementing the existing artillery gun at a range beyond 30 km. Its quick reaction time and high rate of fire gives an edge to the army during low-intensity warlike situation.

The unguided rocket system is meant to neutralise bigger geographical area with rapid salvo of rockets. With a range of 40 km, 'Pinaka' can fire salvo of 12 rockets in 44 seconds. One salvo each (12 rockets) from the battery of six launchers can neutralise at a time a target area of 3.9 sq km.

The system's capability to incorporate several types of warheads makes it deadly for the enemy as it can even destroy their solid structures and bunkers.

Wednesday's exercise involved six rounds of sample trials for which rockets were picked up randomly from 102 samples, the sources said.

Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), which is the nodal agency to develop the 'Pinaka', has also reported to have developed a high performance artillery rocket system, which can fire up to a range between 70 km and 120 km, they said.

ARDE has announced that it is developing a 7.2-metre rocket for the Pinaka MBRL, which can reach a distance of 120 km and carry a 250 kg payload. These new rockets can be fired in 44 seconds, have a maximum speed of mach 4.7, rise to an altitude of 40 km before hitting its target at mach 1.8 and can destroy an area of 3.9 sq km.

Integrating UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle) with the Pinaka is also in the pipeline, as DRDO intends to install guidance systems on these rockets to increase their accuracy.

Development and trials will continue and the rocket is expected to enter service by 2012.

The first Pinaka regiment was raised in February 2000. A regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves, the sources said.

Tata Power's [Get Quote] advanced material division and Larsen and Tubro's heavy engineering division were awarded a Rs 200 crore contract to produce 40 Pinaka MRBLs each.

 

[aaaditya]

well two points are apparent from the above article;

1) at least about 108 pinaka launchers are in servfice.

2) the agnivarsha project is in a relatively advanced stage of development.

though one thing i find difficult to understand is that how can a rocket carrying a heavier warhead (250 kgs) destroy an area of same size as the pinaka rocket which carries a 100 kg warhead,should'nt the area of destruction be greater than 3.9 kms with the new rocket.

 

[niteshkjain]

Guys check this, was it really "tested?" If yes, on which occasion? Or just DDM

India tests multi-barrel rocket launcher ‘Pinaka’ - Sify.com

India tests multi-barrel rocket launcher ‘Pinaka’


Balasore (Orissa): India successfully tested Wednesday an advanced version of the indigenously built multi-barrel rocket launcher 'Pinaka' from a defence base in Orissa, officials said.

The multi-barrel rocket launching system (MBRLS) was tested from the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) in Chandipur-on-sea in Balasore district, some 230 km from state capital Bhubaneswar.

“It was a product launch,” S.P. Dash, director of the Chandipur defence base, told IANS over telephone. PXE is part of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Capable of firing 12 rockets in a single salvo with 1.2 tonnes of high explosives within 40 seconds, the Pinaka system has already been tested on the field during the Kargil war.

“The developed version is a sophisticated shoot-and-scoot high mobility system. The test today (Wednesday) was aimed at improving the system and sub-system,” defence officials said.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom,

You do not see the benefits of firing live maingun rounds, why, a tank is a different acting beast when firing live projectiles, units do act different when training, it builds unit cohesion and brings on other aspects, for example logistical support. Do you realize on how hard it is to conduct a passage of lines due to a unit being out beans, bullets and diesel, it takes alot of practice to hand off a battle to a fresh unit because you are out of logistics, especially if you have a persistant opponent. You would be surprised on how fast you can go thru a combat load of ammunition, this is just one of the many things that you have to practice doing or you are going to get your unit killed.

1. Never heard NATO tankers routinely shot more than FULL LOAD of tank MG ammo in exercises.

2. I still cant understand what live or training round have to do with supply chain and logistic while training. If one wish to include logistical problems in exercise - they can perfectly do it with practice rounds. Including even they weight & size if needed.

3. i understand what shooting live rounds is valuable experience. Just do not overestimate it - it is not like russian tankers do not shot them at all. They DO shot them sometimes, and have some clue how sounds real round fire.

 

[Chrom]

well two points are apparent from the above article;

1) at least about 108 pinaka launchers are in servfice.

2) the agnivarsha project is in a relatively advanced stage of development.

though one thing i find difficult to understand is that how can a rocket carrying a heavier warhead (250 kgs) destroy an area of same size as the pinaka rocket which carries a 100 kg warhead,should'nt the area of destruction be greater than 3.9 kms with the new rocket.

This is highly exaggerated figure, so there is no surprise.

 

[eckherl]

1. Never heard NATO tankers routinely shot more than FULL LOAD of tank MG ammo in exercises.

2. I still cant understand what live or training round have to do with supply chain and logistic while training. If one wish to include logistical problems in exercise - they can perfectly do it with practice rounds. Including even they weight & size if needed.

3. i understand what shooting live rounds is valuable experience. Just do not overestimate it - it is not like russian tankers do not shot them at all. They DO shot them sometimes, and have some clue how sounds real round fire.

Chrom,

I cannot speak for other NATO members inregards to firing complete combat loadouts and conducting logistical replenishment in training and combat scenarios but the U.S does in fact practice this, if you have never served with a armor unit then it would be difficult for you to grasp on what I am saying. Conducting logistical replenishment or passing a battle off to a fresh unit does present its own challenges and has to be practiced with the real deal instead of subcaliber ammunition.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom,

I cannot speak for other NATO members inregards to firing complete combat loadouts and conducting logistical replenishment in training and combat scenarios but the U.S does in fact practice this, if you have never served with a armor unit then it would be difficult for you to grasp on what I am saying. Conducting logistical replenishment or passing a battle off to a fresh unit does present its own challenges and has to be practiced with the real deal instead of subcaliber ammunition.

I still cant understand what logistic have to do with subcaliber rounds. For logistical training (supply, etc) purposes full weight simulated rounds can be used. Dont forget, russian tanks have autoloader - so there is no need for loader training with heavy weight rounds.

Please, try to think different. Instead of thinking how different 23mm and 125mm rounds are, try to think how you would simulate (for training purposes) 125mm logistical difficulties using 23mm rounds.

 

[eckherl]

I still cant understand what logistic have to do with subcaliber rounds. For logistical training (supply, etc) purposes full weight simulated rounds can be used. Dont forget, russian tanks have autoloader - so there is no need for loader training with heavy weight rounds.

Please, try to think different. Instead of thinking how different 23mm and 125mm rounds are, try to think how you would simulate (for training purposes) 125mm logistical difficulties using 23mm rounds.

OOOKAY!

Seeings how you are not grasping on what I am talking about lets leave the conversation alone.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting news ,it seems that the indian governement is quite serious about development of a next generation main battle tank with russia.

here is the link and the article:


http://en.rian.ru/world/20080819/116132598.html



MOSCOW, August 19 (RIA Novosti) - India could consider plans to produce a new-generation tank jointly with Russia, the managing director of the BrahMos Aerospace joint venture said on Tuesday. Sivathanu Pillai said that while the new tank had yet to be developed, it could be built in Russia. He offered no indication of when the project could be launched, however.
Russian experts earlier said Russia and India could launch production of a new tank in the near future.
India currently assembles T-90S main battle tanks under a Russian license.
The T-90S version is in service with the Indian Army, and the local production of T-90S Bhishma tanks started recently in India.
In 2001, India bought 310 T-90S tanks from Russia.
Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace designs, produces and markets supersonic missiles, whose sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian army and navy.