Bullpup or Conventional rifle?

[McTaff]

i once test this concept for drum magazine. the long curve path took a heavy toll on a spring. halfway through, the spring aren't strong enough to push the round reliably. an extra strong spring may cause a problem when feeding the bullet into the magazine. furthermore, the strong spring may cause the bullets to "jump" out of magazine.

I apologise for not being clear in my post - I imagined a different system, not a spring system.

I really need to draw what I'm imagining. It wouldn't be perfect, but I thought it might have potential. What I'm thinking is also a neat way to dispense with the spent cartridges too, and would allow for reasonably safe and easy loading.

I'll need to get back to you on this. (but I am willing to bet pennies that someone has already thought of it, and probably has a patent; and the reason it isn't in common use is because it probably doesn't work!)

EDIT TO ADD:
I just found a drum-magazine patent that outlines the distinct disadvantages of some drum-type arrangements. I can see related issues I hadn't thought of, an although they specifically refer to magazines that feed upwards into a column, there are significant issues that I'd need to look at in-depth. Still, they aren't showstopping items, but it'd require a complicated engineering solution to begin with. Lots of prototypes would need to be designed and tested to fine tune it, as it isn't a simple device.

Seeing that the whole idea of magazines is that they are cheap, simple and have few moving parts, I'm putting this one in the 'too hard basket' as it were.

 

[mattyem]

bullpup vs conventional

The issue tends to be that of a glass "half full or half empty"

Both will have their hardcore supporters and critics.

In the feild every rifle has its downfall and successes.

I would look at the type of rifle SF use in determining which is prefered, which is that of conventional. The fact that these are used more most have some bearing on which is better?

Just my thoughts on the matter anyway. Im and trained on use with the Steyr as it is the infantry weapon of issue here, and I can honestly say that personnally I have had no issues at all with the weapon. I find it both comfortable and reliable, only having jams whilst using blank rounds.

I find the weight distribution of the rifle more comfortable aswell (my personal preference, others find that of the m4 better)

 

[Eeshaan]

What about the FAMAS ? How does it compare to the other bullpup rifles in use today ?

Also, the Tavor TAR-21 is said to be quite a good weapon. Supposed to be reliable & works well in desert/extreme climate. It is currently being used in small numbers by Indian Special Forces.

But anyways, it should be noted that the rifle that many people state as the most reliable assault rifle currently in use is the G36 series of weapons, which happens to be of conventional design.

Side note : Iran is developing a bullpup rifle called Khaybar KH2002, which is supposed to be an M16 converted into bullpup configuration.

 

[Chino]

US Military anti-bullpup?

Every new rifle that this nation full of private arms maker invents/makes is a conventional rifle - especially the kazillion different AR types.

While FN of Belgium make the FN2000, the FNH of USA makes the SCAR. And then there's the Masada, XCR etc.

Would you agree that there is a general disinterest in bullpup in the USA?

So, too, the Germans, it seems. Besides not issuing it in the military, this prolific weapons inventing nation have not even shown much interest in developing a bullpup (other than the G11 - but that's a special case).

If the Germans want to make a bullpup they could do it in a jiffy and it would probably be a great weapon. But why are they so disinterested? You can't say there isn't a market for bullpups internationally either. The Germans have already cornered the market for replacement (non-AR) conventionals with the G36. So why not make a bullpup and compete for the bullpup market as well?

 

[F-15 Eagle]

I would have to choose the conventional rifle as my favorite. The bullpup is a favorite with many smaller nations but it fails to win the harts and minds of the bigger nations like the U.S. and Russia. Most nations use ether the M16/M4 now mostly the M4 as well as the AK-47 and AK-74 all are conventional rifles.

The M4 Carbine is my favorite rifle.

 

[mattyem]

It also appears to be an issue of tried and true.

Many of the larger militarys will keep using a conventional style rifle because it has always been used and due to the length these have been in service problems have time to be ironed out and improvments made, hence we see the M4 and ak74.

With exisiting infilstructure in place for production and maintenance of these weapons, why change?.

We mainly see smaller nations adopting the bullpup, and ones that do generally dont have any thing in place for manurfacture and production of weapons of their own. Here we see the sales and marketing of these bullpups being presented and displayed to the nations who have contracts out for small arms.

Maybe it is in the production costs of theses weapons and market pitch that has seen them enter active service more throughout the world.... just a thought.

Thanks

 

[DavidDCM]

We mainly see smaller nations adopting the bullpup, and ones that do generally dont have any thing in place for manurfacture and production of weapons of their own.

You mean small nations like France, UK and China? Or nations without development and production facilities of their own like Austria and Singapore?

 

[F-15 Eagle]

You mean small nations like France, UK and China? Or nations without development and production facilities of their own like Austria and Singapore?

France and the U.K. are small but China is large. China still manly uses the AK-47 the last time i checked.

 

[DavidDCM]

How did you "check" China? Did you go there and take a look at every single infantry unit and their armoury? They are in the middle of transitioning to their new bullpub rifle and the majority of new pictures shows that this seems to go very well.

Last time I checked, France and UK were pretty big regarding industrial and political influence, and this is what we're talking about, no? Or do you think it's "area in km²" that matters when you buy or sell a new rifle?

 

[gf0012-aust]

France and the U.K. are small but China is large. China still manly uses the AK-47 the last time i checked.

Incorrect, the chinese are rapidly transiting to their bullpup - and in fact all of their tier one units are using the bullpup. Numerically, just their tier 1 units would be bigger than some countries baseline militaries.

they are extensive and committed users of the bullpup for a variety of reasons.

 

[Waylander]

And the UK and France are small for you?
Just because they don't have a million men in their army?

If France and the UK, two of the most modern and important countries out there, are not big and important for you who is?
Some 3rd world army just because they have more men in their army?
Sure they are going to lead the way when it comes to introduction of weapon systems...

 

[Chino]

France and the U.K. are small but China is large. China still manly uses the AK-47 the last time i checked.

haha, you "checked"....

Either on TV doco, news, in real life, or even in far flung Tibet, I have not seen the PLA using the AK47. and hasn't done so sine the 80s after the Sino-Vietnam border war. They use the Type 81. It only looks like an AK to someone not paying any atention, and has no interchangeable parts.

All these info are on the web.

 

[Hamdaman101]

SA80 bad?

Stuart,

Sorry, no, its an awful piece of kit inflicted upon the British Army.

Way too heavy, SUSAT fogs up too easy and remains too delicate despite the L85-A2 upgrade by Heckler & Koch.

And let's not start on the LSW. Absolute rubbish.


Give them the kit.

OK. First thing is that you cant rely on the paperwork alone. Secondly I am only an army cadet but I have used both weapons in the feild in every weather condition short of arctic. I can say with no ego that the only reason the L85A2 will malfunction is because person using was f###ing about with it, i.e. manges to get dirt in the barrel, does not cock properly, or simply likes to hit things with it. (Rifle Butting something is alright because of the butt pad.) Ive used SUSATs also (We only get them on LSWs) and I think they perform just as well as as any other sight. In any case the SUSAT comes with an iron sight on the top just in case.

 

[o4r]

Why don't just we compare the two type of configuration based on end user rather than from research of other.

I compare both based both type on my experience as a solider and not some study report. I used it and I am a end user.

I am a end user of both M16 and SAR21. I fired severals fire arm like HkG36, HK33, GPMG, Aug and to smaller arms... S&W 500 is a fantasy weapon..... frigthening but need a very large frame monster to carry and fire it. The recoil is like firing a shotgun on one hand... terrible. (All arms testing is an invitation to States, Florida)

Firing bullpup sound louder than a standard rifle. When I use bayonet, I prefer M16, I can still fire , but a bullpup, I think I prefer the knife on my left and rifle on my right.

I prefer to grid a standard M16 over a SAR21 bullpup, I dunno how to describle it but it just different, maybe years of holding a standard rifle, you feel different. At 200m, both seem to perform the same but at 300, I am still better with a standard rifle. I just can't get better with a bullpup... maybe still trying to get use to it.

On ground flat, we were taught a few method, one of the best, was holding the bullpup like a pistol, both hand on the pistol grid, it gives better accuracy then the normal method... so it is not true that bullpup lying on the ground force us to be higher profile.

I prefer standard rifle when changing mag. Bullpup, I have to bring the arm forward and slunt it sideway, likewise with a standard M16, I do not require to do so. One more thing, having plastic mag for bullpup is a waste of time, I can't see my mag but when using M16, I really like it, I know how many rounds I roughly left, and I can still fire when changing my mag.

Personally, the my favorite arm for built up area is still either a pistol or SMG or a shotgun. Rifle whether it is bullpup or standard rifle is just isn't short enough, maybe the word is handy. Bullpup do has a advantage being able to grip the handle with both hand like a pistol in CQB. But pistol and SMG is superb at CQB, going to corner and quicker to turn, HK33 is a interesting little bastard because it really kind of funny to fire a rifle caliber bullet in a compact slightly larger than a MP5. Shotgun is terrifying to the enemy.... a huge diameter barrel is always frightening, good effect.

My 3 cents point of view.

 

[SuperSLime]

HK33 is a interesting little bastard because it really kind of funny to fire a rifle caliber bullet in a compact slightly larger than a MP5.

I think you mean the HK53, the carbine version of the 33. It's a good weapon all right. Have you tried a G3K though? It's not all that much bigger, and it's 7.62mm. VERY interesting

 

[kato]

And the G36C is of course even shorter than the HK53. The G3K is considerably longer than a HK53 (several inches).

 

[SuperSLime]

The G3K is considerably longer than a HK53 (several inches).

It is, but it's still a lot of bang in a pretty small package.

 

[kato]

It's also a damn unstable platform, has next to no accuracy (for a rifle), and has some damn high recoil for a 7.62mm NATO platform.

 

[SuperSLime]

It's also a damn unstable platform, has next to no accuracy (for a rifle), and has some damn high recoil for a 7.62mm NATO platform.

Well, it depends what you want to do with it. We used them mainly for COIN in Northern Ireland, loaded with AP rounds. Unlike an MP5 or HK53, they can disable cars by cracking the engine block.

 

[o4r]

I think you mean the HK53, the carbine version of the 33. It's a good weapon all right. Have you tried a G3K though? It's not all that much bigger, and it's 7.62mm. VERY interesting

I think so... It is just a Hk33 reduced size that all what I see thought.... Have you ever being in a close combat... you will prefer to put more rounds into that idiot you're facing and make sure he drops to the ground and will not do anything after that.

It is not like in a movie.. you shot the target and he flies... they don't, they just drop to the ground and something you gives it a couple more to make sure they don't get up again.......

7.62mm is good but they just can't put that many shots on the person that quickly and ready for another.. The recoil is too much.

That why I said, pistol round is better at very close quarter, a MP5 is good but required a lot of maintenance. I have tried MP7 but have not got a chance to hold a P90. MP7 is good, low recoil but 4.7mm .... hmmm...... but I am able to put 5 to 6 rounds on an idiot in a very short time... that really matter.