Egyptian air force F-16s

[Scorpius]

I heard that the Egyptian air force F-16s lack BVR capability.Is that true.If yes then isn't it kind of useless.
how good are EAF pilots compared to Israelis,and other Arab states?

 

[Burner]

False!

On June 25, 1980, Egypt signed a letter of agreement to acquire 40 Block 15 F-16A/B fighters (34 A single-seaters and 8 B two-seaters) under the Peace Vector FMS program. The first F-16 was accepted by Egypt in a ceremony at Fort Worth in January of 1982, with the first six planes arriving in Egypt in March of that year.

Under Peace Vector II, Egypt ordered 40 F-16C/Ds (34 Cs and six Ds) with AIM-7 Sparrow capability. These were Block 32 machines, and were one of the few examples of F-16C/Ds being built that were compatible with the AIM-7 Sparrow. First F-16C/D deliveries were in October of 1986, the 242nd Regiment at Beni Suef being the first to be equipped with the type.

In June of 1990, Egypt signed an order for 35 Block 40 F-16Cs and 12 Block 40 F-16Ds. These were to be powered by the General Electric F110 turbofan. This order was under Peace Vector III, and these planes were intended to equip two squadrons as well as to make up for attrition. The first Peace Vector III F-16s were delivered to Egypt in October of 1991.

A contract to produce 46 Block 40 F-16C/Ds for the Egyptian Air Force was placed with TUSAS Aerospace Industries (TAI) of Turkey. 34 of them were F-16Cs, 12 were F-16Ds. This was carried out under the auspices of the Peace Vector IV program, and marked the first sale of a foreign-built Fighting Falcon to a third-party nation in the history of the F-16 program. All but one of the earlier F-16s for Egypt had originated on the Lockheed/General Dynamics production line at Fort Worth. The first TAI-built aircraft was delivered to Egypt in early 1994. For formal bureaucratic reasons dealing with the rules and regulations under which the Foreign Military Sales program operates, TAI is not allowed to deliver F-16s directly to Egypt. Instead, the aircraft are initially delivered to the USAF, which then turns them over to Egypt.

Under Peace Vector V of May 1996, 21 Block 40 F-16Cs were ordered. Deliveries began in November of 1999, and should continue until 2002. As part of Peace Vector V, GBU-15 and AGM-84 capability will be integrated into all of Egypt's earlier F-16Cs.

Another dozen Block 40 F-16Cs and an equal number of F-16Ds were ordered in August 1999 under Peace Vector VI. This raises overall F-16 Egyptian orders to 220, including 60 F-16Ds. The Peace Vector VI planes will be powered by General Electric F110-GE-100B turbofans and will be equipped with the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-88(V) fire control radar.

Four wings of the Egyptian Air Force now operate the F-16. 34 F-16As and six F-16Bs from Peace Vector I are at Genaclis. 34 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds from Peace Vector II are with the Beni Sueif Wing. 35 F-16Cs and 12 F-16Ds from Peace Vector III are with Abu Sueir Wing. Egypt will have received a total of 175 Fighting Falcons by the time all the TAI machines have been delivered. By 1997, all of Egypt's Block 15 and 32 aircraft had been brought up to Block 42 standards.

SOURCE: http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?id=8&bg=52

As you can see, the EAF's F-16s DO HAVE BVR capability. It would be plain dumb not to have it.:rel
About the Egyptian pilots, I don't really know, but I think it's safe to say that the Israelis are the best in their region, and some of the best trained in the world. Correct me if you think I'm wrong.

 

[ROCK45]

Egyptian AF

The Egyptian air force operates a large F-16 fleet and was wondering would they be going the F-35 route? I didn't see anything and thought as a natural Viper replacement down the road that maybe it might happen.

Would Egypt be interested in the UAE Mirage 2000-5/9 if they were really up for sale?

Does the FC-1 or if it were cleared for export the J-10 have a chance in Egypt?

 

[F-15 Eagle]

The Egyptian air force operates a large F-16 fleet and was wondering would they be going the F-35 route? I didn't see anything and thought as a natural Viper replacement down the road that maybe it might happen.

Would Egypt be interested in the UAE Mirage 2000-5/9 if they were really up for sale?

Does the FC-1 or if it were cleared for export the J-10 have a chance in Egypt?

I doubt they will get the F-35 but the Mirage 2000-5/9 and FC-1/J-10 is very possible. Maybe the SU-35BM too.....

 

[eaf-f16]

I doubt they will get the F-35 but the Mirage 2000-5/9 and FC-1/J-10 is very possible. Maybe the SU-35BM too.....

Why not the F-35? You can't have Israel become one of the F-35's earliest export costumers and then tell Egypt, one of your most powerful allies in the region and one of the 3 Arab countries that has peace with Israel, Admin. Text deleted. You've been on here long enough to know whats acceptable

It's a matter of when with F-35. Probably 2-4 years after Israel get accepts it's first F-35's.

It took us 2 years to get our first F-16's after the Israelis got the first of theirs.

But if the Israelis get theirs as early as they are saying they want it, then the 4 year figure is more realistic.

 

[ROCK45]

Egypt

I think the F-35 down the road seems possible but I don't think the SU-35BM would have a chance. Egypt AF would be taking on a whole new type to setup and support doesn't seem likely.

eaf-f16 does Egypt even fly there older Mig-21 or Mig-23 anymore?

Wasn't there a rumor a few years ago that Egypt might buy Mig-29s?

 

[eaf-f16]

I think the F-35 down the road seems possible but I don't think the SU-35BM would have a chance. Egypt AF would be taking on a whole new type to setup and support doesn't seem likely.

eaf-f16 does Egypt even fly there older Mig-21 or Mig-23 anymore?

Wasn't there a rumor a few years ago that Egypt might buy Mig-29s?

The MiG-21 was retired only fairly recently and IIRC the MiG-23's didn't even survive the 80's.

The only 3rd generation fighter-aircraft currently used by the Egyptian Air Force now are the F-4E's we bought back in the 70's-80's and the Mirage 5's we got from Libya before the October War. I'm a little unsure about the status of the Mirage 5, though.

The MiG-29's were meant to replace the old MiG-21's that were going to get retired. It's pretty safe to say we won't be buying those now. I think the reason it took so long for the MiG-21 to be put out of service was because the EAF couldn't find anything to replace them with.

I agree with you on the Su-35BM. Very unlikely and we probably can't afford it. Not to mention that it would play into Israel's hand and secure for them the acquisition of the F-35 early on.

 

[al3ameed]

EAF-F16,

Since when did they believe in parity? Admin. Text deleted. Unacceptable language - learn how to express yourself without reverting to reproductive verbs

Egypt might get the F35, but then the Israelis will probably get the F22, and you can be certain no Arab country will get that.

 

[eaf-f16]

EAF-F16,

Since when did they believe in parity? Admin. Text deleted. Unacceptable language - learn how to express yourself without reverting to reproductive verbs

Egypt might get the F35, but then the Israelis will probably get the F22, and you can be certain no Arab country will get that.

70 years? We've only been allies for about 30.

Israel said it probably won't even get as many F-35's as it wants initially because it wants to do an upgrade program for its F-16 and F-15 fleets.

I didn't say the US will ever give us parity with Israel in terms of armament (or political impunity).

But if the US literally allows Israel to pick and chose weapons for us then our relationship will deteriorate to the point where an alliance with them would actually become a strategic burden on us. At which point it would be better for us to dump them as an ally.

But right now, that's not the case. But it's certainly starting to be.

 

[AntiBond007]

70 years? We've only been allies for about 30.

Israel said it probably won't even get as many F-35's as it wants initially because it wants to do an upgrade program for its F-16 and F-15 fleets.

I didn't say the US will ever give us parity with Israel in terms of armament (or political impunity).

But if the US literally allows Israel to pick and chose weapons for us then our relationship will deteriorate to the point where an alliance with them would actually become a strategic burden on us. At which point it would be better for us to dump them as an ally.

But right now, that's not the case. But it's certainly starting to be.

Well, I'm sure the question that will arise is why does Egypt even need F-35's for, at least at the early stage? The nations that will get the F-35 first will be the ones who were part of the program and Israel/Singapore (Israel and Singapore were actually minor participants but anyway).

Egypt, did not participate in the program, and has no enemies which I can think of which would attack it (Of course some Egyptians would point to Israel, as if it would decide to attack it for its amusement).

So, why does Egypt need F-35's for? Pakistan still uses F-16's (and I didn't hear of F-35's going to them) and its an American ally in a more dangerous location than Egypt.

 

[eaf-f16]

Well, I'm sure the question that will arise is why does Egypt even need F-35's for, at least at the early stage? The nations that will get the F-35 first will be the ones who were part of the program and Israel/Singapore (Israel and Singapore were actually minor participants but anyway).

Egypt, did not participate in the program, and has no enemies which I can think of which would attack it (Of course some Egyptians would point to Israel, as if it would decide to attack it for its amusement).

So, why does Egypt need F-35's for? Pakistan still uses F-16's (and I didn't hear of F-35's going to them) and its an American ally in a more dangerous location than Egypt.

Your post shows a lack of understanding of one of the most basic policies of US strategy in the Middle East and Middle Eastern politics.

The whole point of US military aid to Egypt is to allow Egypt to maintain a military capable of deterring Israel (and vice versa). This has been known since the very beginning. It's practically part of the peace agreement.

Also, wasn't Israel kicked out of the program for selling military equipment and technology to China?

 

[swerve]

Also, wasn't Israel kicked out of the program for selling military equipment and technology to China?

Israel was never in the JSF programme. Some of the partners didn't want to share their technology (remember, not everything in the JSF is American) with Israel. Israel is allowed to buy the F-35 (you don't have to be in the programme to be a customer), but not participate in development.

 

[radiosilence]

Israel was never in the JSF programme. Some of the partners didn't want to share their technology (remember, not everything in the JSF is American) with Israel. Israel is allowed to buy the F-35 (you don't have to be in the programme to be a customer), but not participate in development.

Israel signed on to the JSF program as a security cooperation participant (SCP) a status lower than full partner countries in 2003. Its inaccurate to say it was never in the JSF Program. SCP are allowed to explore configurations of JSF to meet its unique operational needs.

 

[swerve]

Israel signed on to the JSF program as a security cooperation participant (SCP) a status lower than full partner countries in 2003. Its inaccurate to say it was never in the JSF Program. SCP are allowed to explore configurations of JSF to meet its unique operational needs.

From what I understand it to entail, a "security cooperation participant" doesn't sound like being in the programme. It seems to be a purely customer status. You've formally declared an interest in buying the aircraft, & get technical briefings, can make suggestions (which nobody has to pay attention to) about design choices, & discuss possible configurations for the aircraft which you intend to buy. That level of customer involvement has been far from unknown in aircraft developments for many years where the customer has the necessary technical ability, & is commonplace in airliner development, without anyone considering such actual or potential customers to be part of the development programme. Call them "Tier 1 customers".

 

[radiosilence]

From what I understand it to entail, a "security cooperation participant" doesn't sound like being in the programme. It seems to be a purely customer status. You've formally declared an interest in buying the aircraft, & get technical briefings, can make suggestions (which nobody has to pay attention to) about design choices, & discuss possible configurations for the aircraft which you intend to buy. That level of customer involvement has been far from unknown in aircraft developments for many years where the customer has the necessary technical ability, & is commonplace in airliner development, without anyone considering such actual or potential customers to be part of the development programme. Call them "Tier 1 customers".

The Israelis put down 20 millions dollars when they signed on to become a security cooperation participant so they are more than your typical customer.

 

[AntiBond007]

Your post shows a lack of understanding of one of the most basic policies of US strategy in the Middle East and Middle Eastern politics.

The whole point of US military aid to Egypt is to allow Egypt to maintain a military capable of deterring Israel (and vice versa). This has been known since the very beginning. It's practically part of the peace agreement.

Also, wasn't Israel kicked out of the program for selling military equipment and technology to China?

I doubt that Egypt needs to "deter" Isreal as it never had any ambitions to destroy or do harm to Egypt (unless provoked), the reverse is not so. If deterrence is the main issue, why was there a peace deal? Deterrence is what kept the US and Soviet Union from destroying one another. If Egypt needs to be constantly deterred by Israel, that is some peace deal (i.e peace as long as Israel is strong). Does Jordan need to deter Israel as well now? And anyway, If your speaking militarily, the F-35 will not provide Egypt with any additional deterrence, only some artificial prestige. If you really believe that deterrence is Egypt's main goal, its not their air force that will provide it.

Israel was for a short period out of the program, than let back in after some consultations with the US.

Also I'm pretty sure there is some minor Israeli equipment on the plane , like the Helmet Mounted Display etc.

About the "security cooperation participant" , that exactly what I meant. Israel will get the plane sooner than most I gather because of that status, and I hear they have their own variant (with some Israeli equipment and such, much like the F16I I suppose)

 

[pindown]

I find it difficult to understand the logic of , Israel atacking
egypt , the Egyptian air force needs to remain operational
and up to date to deal with far more realistic threats,
Today Egypt has a great deal to worry about, with Iran
and its quest for an all islamic fundamentalist middle east
For many years now egypt has been considered the no 1
power house in the ME after Israel
this is being erroded by Iran ,

 

[AntiBond007]

I find it difficult to understand the logic of , Israel atacking
egypt , the Egyptian air force needs to remain operational
and up to date to deal with far more realistic threats,
Today Egypt has a great deal to worry about, with Iran
and its quest for an all islamic fundamentalist middle east
For many years now egypt has been considered the no 1
power house in the ME after Israel
this is being erroded by Iran ,

Well, then it boils down to prestige in the area. Iran won't attack Egypt directly, but Egypt wants to remain a "regional power", having F-35's would probably create an aura of power around Egypt, but for all practical purposes I see no need for them. When Egypt asks the US for F-35's, and the US asks for a reason to have such an advanced fighter, how will it respond (I don't think including Israel in the response is a good answer)? Egypt has Abrams tanks, and F-16's but those are not the same as the US versions (well, at least the tanks), they have different armor etc. The F-35 is the pinnacle of US technology (behind F-22), I find it hard to believe (although anything is possible) that it would export the same version to Egypt that it takes for its own air force.

And the thing about the F-35 is that without its stealth, its not that much different than the F-16 in terms of capabilities. So if the US degrades that aspect, well than you have a really expensive F-16 upgrade.

 

[pindown]

we will live and learn

we seem to be similar in our thoughts and logic , unfortunately
logic is hard to come by in the israel and the middle east,
my logic says that the arab nations here should be as worried
about Iran as Israel , but when i discuss this point with arabs
there answer is ,,, I quote ,,,, If israel is allowed the bomb why
not Iran ?
We live in a strange neighbourhood
F35 if aquired by our neighbours would be worrying but
copable ,
but if a bomb comes into the hands of Iran all the f35
stealth aircraft in the world wont be able to stop the outcome

 

[eaf-f16]

I doubt that Egypt needs to "deter" Isreal as it never had any ambitions to destroy or do harm to Egypt (unless provoked), the reverse is not so.

I like how, lately, people who don't understand the politics or the history of the region feel like they are experts because they superficially skim through a few articles on Wikipedia.

Israel is the one that attacked Egypt in '67 not the other way around. When we fought their army in '73 we were fighting to get back our own land (not to wipe them off the map as most Zionist fascists claim). They also invaded Lebanon without any good reason, aside from the Litani River, annexing Southern Lebanon and overseeing the massacre of a few thousand Palestinian refugees.

Israel is a historically belligerent nation with ambitions to expand (that's just how Zionism is). So long as you border with them and have no means of protecting yourself from them, they will violate your sovereignty.

If deterrence is the main issue, why was there a peace deal? Deterrence is what kept the US and Soviet Union from destroying one another. If Egypt needs to be constantly deterred by Israel, that is some peace deal (i.e peace as long as Israel is strong). Does Jordan need to deter Israel as well now?

Yes. Yes, it does.

And it isn't peace as long as Israel is strong, it is peace as long as Egypt doesn't trust Israel. Because as soon as it does, the Sinai will be Western Israel.

And anyway, If your speaking militarily, the F-35 will not provide Egypt with any additional deterrence, only some artificial prestige. If you really believe that deterrence is Egypt's main goal, its not their air force that will provide it.

Can you please expand on this?

I don't understand how the F-16 didn't give us any "additional deterrence"?

Your saying that we should have stayed flying MiG-21's while the Israelis flew the latest versions of the F-16 and F-15?

Do you think Israel would have respected our sovereignty then? Or at least not tried to bully us?

Israel was for a short period out of the program, than let back in after some consultations with the US.

Also I'm pretty sure there is some minor Israeli equipment on the plane , like the Helmet Mounted Display etc.

About the "security cooperation participant" , that exactly what I meant. Israel will get the plane sooner than most I gather because of that status, and I hear they have their own variant (with some Israeli equipment and such, much like the F16I I suppose)

As far as I know, they're still kicked out (Israel out right gave to China US technology. Some ally, eh?).

P.S: I much prefer we didn't turn this into a "Israel is the Good Guy vs. the Bad Guys" thread. Another thread was closed because of that. So, I'm not going to talk about politics any further.