Yes, and then tank platoons can independently operate without infantry. Or, at least, with much lesser need in infantry.
Way of using old tanks
- Thread starter evripide
- Start date
I seriously doubt that. Unless the tanks plan to personally demolish every building in the city, they will still need infantry to sweep them. Which brings us back to the same point. You need light infantry to do the building-to-building sweep, while your armor dominates the streets.
Yes, tanks would still need infantry to clear buildings. But that infantry could be far behind tanks now, and tanks could conduct quick deep sweep throu enemy controlled territory without being sitting duck for enemy ATGM's.
Also, infantry could concentrate more on actually clearing building rather than baby sitting own tanks.
I highly doubt that it will work in conjuction with tanks in a urbanized environment, the weapons systems have been selected specifically to work in conjuction with infantry, all information that I have seen also states that it was designed specifically for that purpose. You have to have boots on the ground Chrom to clear out buildings, we will never be able to do it solely with armor, recent history has proven that. I would take high angled auto cannons and a Thermoboric weapons platform any day over a tank main gun.
hey i thought this thread was for upgraded tanks and not the way tanks (in general ) are used.
anyway getting back to topic
how many tanks in the world come purely under the "upgraded to fill the gap" category ??
im aware of only 3
indian C.I.Ajeya (t-72M1 upgraded with polish dwara FCS,ERA, etc etc )
pakistani Al Zarrar (Type-59 / 69 upgraded with 125mm gun ,ERA, etc etc)
american M-60 upgraded to varius levels ( gotta confess dont know much )
does the polish PT-91 twardy come under this category or is it considered a totally new tank?
and if these tanks were to be ranked( solely on tank performance and not crew performance) which would be the top 3/ 5 /10 tanks?
information and opinions most welcome.
anyway getting back to topic
how many tanks in the world come purely under the "upgraded to fill the gap" category ??
im aware of only 3
indian C.I.Ajeya (t-72M1 upgraded with polish dwara FCS,ERA, etc etc )
pakistani Al Zarrar (Type-59 / 69 upgraded with 125mm gun ,ERA, etc etc)
american M-60 upgraded to varius levels ( gotta confess dont know much )
does the polish PT-91 twardy come under this category or is it considered a totally new tank?
and if these tanks were to be ranked( solely on tank performance and not crew performance) which would be the top 3/ 5 /10 tanks?
information and opinions most welcome.
Yes. But you constantly omit the other, VERY major task of said infantry - protecting tanks ! Clearing building is all good and necessary - but it is less than half infantry job in urban combat, especially offensive.
Protecting tanks by suppressing enemy infantry is by far most important reason and main task of BMP-T. BMP-T replace infantry NEAR tanks, ofc it is not intended to clear buildings.
Again, with BMP-T support tanks can well operate independently of infantry, if needs. Without BMP-T support - they need much more fragile BMP-2/3 to protect itself against infantry.
They need both either way. In fact the one thing they don't need is the tanks themselves. At least not on a strategic level. Again, tactically attaching tanks and BMPT's to infantry is much more fruitful then tanks and BMPTs with some infantry support.
Now back on topic, I would call the Twardy an upgrade tank. There are several others. T-72B2 Rogatka definetly passes as one of them. There was a proposed upgrade of T-80UM2 turrets on existing T-80 tanks which was interesting.
Now back on topic, I would call the Twardy an upgrade tank. There are several others. T-72B2 Rogatka definetly passes as one of them. There was a proposed upgrade of T-80UM2 turrets on existing T-80 tanks which was interesting.
PT-91 is both new tank and upgrade, as newly produced hull still remains almost the same as original T-72.
Original T-72M1 can be upgraded to PT-91 level without too much problems, hence it is upgrade.
As for other upgrades... there is at least 2 "premium" T-72 upgrades: One russian (Rogatka, about T-90 level), and 1 Ukrainian. There is also Belorussian upgrade, similar to Russian one.
Some goes for T-62/T-64 upgrades - Russian and Ukrainian offer good packages.
Additionally, almost every major T-72 user (ex-Warsaw pact, China, Middle East) country offer own upgrade for T-62 / T-72 of different quality. Israel also offers partial upgrades.
A good use for old MBT's is forward resupply vehicles, this is in recognition of the fact that there are no fixed lines in modern combat, your supply points may be 30km from the front "face" of combat and any type of hostiles could be encountered along that route, therefore you can load up a hollowed out MBT even make it unmanned with a remote weapons station and allow it to go into the frey while ensuring adequite protection to make sure the supplies get there.
That is more than just inefficient.
A tank chassis needs much too much maintenance and is extremely expensive to operate.
If one is scared about attacks by guerillas or scared of mines and IEDs one needs to use protected trucks which are already in use with most countries operating in countries like Iraq and A-stan.
For normal supply one just uses normal offrad capable trucks and that's it. Everything else is too much of a strain to the logistic system.
Not to talk of the advantage that trucks are able to carry pallets much more easily.
A tank chassis needs much too much maintenance and is extremely expensive to operate.
If one is scared about attacks by guerillas or scared of mines and IEDs one needs to use protected trucks which are already in use with most countries operating in countries like Iraq and A-stan.
For normal supply one just uses normal offrad capable trucks and that's it. Everything else is too much of a strain to the logistic system.
Not to talk of the advantage that trucks are able to carry pallets much more easily.
I was reffering to more trivial things like behind the lines ATGM teams and anti-logistics tasked special forces. Plus a tank has the ability to get out of muddy shell ridden spots even offroaders would have trouble with
Big problem: the logistical load of getting the old MBTs there. Tanks (especially old ones) rarely self-deploy, because the fuel cost & maintenance load are too great. You therefore need transporters to get your old MBTs to near the front. I doubt a cost-benefit analysis would come out in favour of the old MBTs.
I have no doubt, my scenario was based on a global force on force meet in the middle style ware of attrition where winning at all costs counts
ATGM teams?
Your old tank (lets take a T-55 or Type 69 for example) is going to get blown away by nearly every half decent ATGM or RPG.
And mine resistant trucks should be nearly as good protected (maybe even more) against mines and IEDs set up by enemy special forces than an old tank.
And I just can emphasize on how expensive it is to operate even one old tank compared to a big bunch of trucks.
Your old tank (lets take a T-55 or Type 69 for example) is going to get blown away by nearly every half decent ATGM or RPG.
And mine resistant trucks should be nearly as good protected (maybe even more) against mines and IEDs set up by enemy special forces than an old tank.
And I just can emphasize on how expensive it is to operate even one old tank compared to a big bunch of trucks.
Ok you have proved your point, but consider the psychological implications of an MBT rolling down the front to an MRAP driving down the road...The opposing force is going to go "OH S**T" if they see a tank but the reaction won't be as glamorous with an MRAP.
Remember this.
Your proposed tank is not much better armed than the trucks he accompanies.
What would be a really good vehicle for supply convoy protection would be a wheeled IFV.
One of the dozens of Piranha II/III/IV versions or a vehicle on VAB or Boxer chassis with a decent autocannon.
Not to expensive to operate, especially while most convoys still use streets except for the last km to the units, but enough firepower and good optics to scare away and repulse lightly armed threats behind your own lines.
And if the enemy is not an idiot he will be much more scared by a modern wheeled IFV than by an old T-55.