Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[StingrayOZ]

Here’s NavyLookout’s take on the PA-Ng project. Seems like a decent concept. The concern is cost plus a stealthy NGF for naval aviation isn’t going help with cost either. The biggest issue is only one ship. Not sure how long a refueling takes for their LEU reactors but would be surprised if it is less than year.

Its a great looking ship, however, it looks expensive. Billions just on the emag launchers alone. If you wanted a high cost high risk carrier, this would be it. It looks very different from the QE class, seems to have premium everything.

Not sure who this is for against. Its more capable, but the existing CdG was already pretty capable against mid and lower tier opposing nations. While more capable, it isn't capable enough to take on peer threats, and no war like that would make sense with just one carrier. Even with refuelling taking a year, ships need maintenance, and upgrades. Training and force structure become fickle with just one.

But it is very cool.

 

[John Fedup]

Sad that the UK and France (and perhaps jointly with Spain/Italy/Germany) couldn't get on the same page and build three of these ships along with a joint 5th Gen naval fighter. Cooperation for this, bridge too far....

 

[Ananda]

Well it's official, Airbus shown A321MPA aim with French as first customer. Don't know of other European especially the likes German already commit on this. However they (Airbus) according to Xavier translation seems wiling to bespoke it toward customer need.

Thus export outside Euro zone in my opinion is not impossible. Knowing French, they will offer it also to other Global South customers that already bought Rafale. They will try to compete in export market with P8.

Add:
If this is base on A321 Neo, then they want to shown the market they can give more operational radius that any 737 base P8 can give. Afterall that's what A321 Neo do in market against MAX.

 

[StevoJH]

Sad that the UK and France (and perhaps jointly with Spain/Italy/Germany) couldn't get on the same page and build three of these ships along with a joint 5th Gen naval fighter. Cooperation for this, bridge too far....

I don’t see the benefit of Nuclear Propulsion for France (other then National Pride) when they are budget limited as they are.

A ship of similar size to the Queen Elizabeth class (PA2?) that is conventionally powered and that they could possibly afford to purchase two of would presumably have been a more logical decision from a force design standpoint?

The article linked above lists a roughly equivalent sized air group to the Queen Elizabeth class as well.

 

[John Fedup]

I don’t see the benefit of Nuclear Propulsion for France (other then National Pride) when they are budget limited as they are.

A ship of similar size to the Queen Elizabeth class (PA2?) that is conventionally powered and that they could possibly afford to purchase two of would presumably have been a more logical decision from a force design standpoint?

The article linked above lists a roughly equivalent sized air group to the Queen Elizabeth class as well.

France has a substantial nuclear industry, both civil and military, so nuclear propulsion isn't an unreasonable choice. A 50 year life cycle is a huge amount of fossil fuel. Then there are the military advantages of NP, range and endurance as well as extra power for future energy directed weapons and EMALS. I seriously doubt two QE class ships could be built in lieu of one PA-Ng. No Euro NGF exists yet and when does come along, STOBAR is an inferior choice based on CATOBAR preference by the USN and now the PLAN. Wouldn't be surprised to see a NP carrier from China by the end of the decade or early next decade. I agree two or three carriers are required and this requires other EURO members to step up. Spain and Italy only see the Mediterranean need and the Northern EUROS don't see the need at all.

 

[Ananda]

Xavier video on Euronaval 2024 on Blacksword Baracuda. Suffren SSN Conventional derivative that has been choose by Netherlands Navy. It will be using Li-Ion and X Rudder. Similar configurations then smaller Scorpene Evo.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I don’t see the benefit of Nuclear Propulsion for France (other then National Pride) when they are budget limited as they are.

A ship of similar size to the Queen Elizabeth class (PA2?) that is conventionally powered and that they could possibly afford to purchase two of would presumably have been a more logical decision from a force design standpoint?

The article linked above lists a roughly equivalent sized air group to the Queen Elizabeth class as well.

To add what John Fedup said, i think France also requires unlimited range to be able to reach the French overseas territories in the Indian and Pacific Ocean in a single trip.

 

[Rob c]

To add what John Fedup said, i think France also requires unlimited range to be able to reach the French overseas territories in the Indian and Pacific Ocean in a single trip.

Don't for get the crew and aircraft, the ship still needs to reprovision for them and refuel with aviation gas at regular intervals. One of the british arguments for going conventional was that this had to happen just as regularly as refueling the ship so there was not the huge advantage that some would think as both could be carried out at the same time.

 

[John Fedup]

Don't for get the crew and aircraft, the ship still needs to reprovision for them and refuel with aviation gas at regular intervals. One of the british arguments for going conventional was that this had to happen just as regularly as refueling the ship so there was not the huge advantage that some would think as both could be carried out at the same time.

Perhaps not huge but definitely significant IMO. Also, aviation fuel doesn’t need to be replenished very often on the long transits albeit the escort ships do. In a perfect world, the escorts would have NP as well. The USN used to have Long Beach cruisers with NP to accompany the USS Enterprise but unfortunately NP Long Beach cruisers were far from perfect.

 

[StevoJH]

Perhaps not huge but definitely significant IMO. Also, aviation fuel doesn’t need to be replenished very often on the long transits albeit the escort ships do. In a perfect world, the escorts would have NP as well. The USN used to have Long Beach cruisers with NP to accompany the USS Enterprise but unfortunately NP Long Beach cruisers were far from perfect.

The escorts are not Nuclear powered, and at least in the near future there do not appear to be plans to build nuclear escorts (everything planned or under construction is conventionally powered.

As a result of this the speed of advance of any carrier deployment is going to be dictated by the economical cruising speed of its escorts, and probably more restricting, the replenishment ship to replenish both them and the carrier with fuel.

A Nuclear powered aircraft carrier is going to be significantly more expensive to both design, build, and operate. Especially if only a single unit is planned. A unique nuclear plant is planned for the ship, which has to be designed and engineered, which also means unique training for the engineering crew.

 

[John Fedup]

The escorts are not Nuclear powered, and at least in the near future there do not appear to be plans to build nuclear escorts (everything planned or under construction is conventionally powered.

As a result of this the speed of advance of any carrier deployment is going to be dictated by the economical cruising speed of its escorts, and probably more restricting, the replenishment ship to replenish both them and the carrier with fuel.

A Nuclear powered aircraft carrier is going to be significantly more expensive to both design, build, and operate. Especially if only a single unit is planned. A unique nuclear plant is planned for the ship, which has to be designed and engineered, which also means unique training for the engineering crew.

I was under the impression the planned reactors for the carrier will be be modified sub reactors (designated as K22?). Modified, I must admit, is a vague term.

 

[StevoJH]

I was under the impression the planned reactors for the carrier will be be modified sub reactors (designated as K22?). Modified, I must admit, is a vague term.

+50% planned power output per reactor, which is a non trivial amount.

Any changes have to be designed, tested and certified. This will not be inexpensive and to be amortised over only 2 reactors?

 

[koxinga]

The escorts are not Nuclear powered, and at least in the near future there do not appear to be plans to build nuclear escorts (everything planned or under construction is conventionally powered.

As a result of this the speed of advance of any carrier deployment is going to be dictated by the economical cruising speed of its escorts, and probably more restricting, the replenishment ship to replenish both them and the carrier with fuel.

Yes, and the same issue holds for the USN for decades. Nuclear powered escorts didn't make much sense for the expense since the rest of the other elements of a CSG is still conventional (e.g frigates, destroyers)

A Nuclear powered aircraft carrier is going to be significantly more expensive to both design, build, and operate. Especially if only a single unit is planned. A unique nuclear plant is planned for the ship, which has to be designed and engineered, which also means unique training for the engineering crew.

Correct on all counts. As far as the French thinking is concerned, "unique capability" (in this case, compact naval reactors) is a sovereign capability that they don't want to lose (having spent so much to acquire, being the only European nuclear powered carrier) and job security for the industrial sector for decades.

 

[swerve]

Well it's official, Airbus shown A321MPA aim with French as first customer. Don't know of other European especially the likes German already commit on this. However they (Airbus) according to Xavier translation seems wiling to bespoke it toward customer need.

Thus export outside Euro zone in my opinion is not impossible. Knowing French, they will offer it also to other Global South customers that already bought Rafale. They will try to compete in export market with P8.

Add:
If this is base on A321 Neo, then they want to shown the market they can give more operational radius that any 737 base P8 can give. Afterall that's what A321 Neo do in market against MAX.

Naval News & Aviation Week say elsewhere it's based on the A321XLR, the extreme long range model of the A321neo. It should have more internal space for equipment & weapons (hence the big bomb bay & no need for underwing weapons) & still have longer range than any 737 variant.

They're aiming it at France, but it's competing with a Dassault option based on the Falcon 10X, which the base medal of has a very long range but is much smaller, so might have to trade off range to get an adequate payload.

 

[John Fedup]

What’s the backlog on A321XLR? As the best long range desirable single aisle jet, Airbus will see more cash flow from the commercial market than from MPA sales. By the time a viable product is developed, France will be the only customer as other clients will have P-8s or MPAs based on business jet airframes.

 

[Ananda]

I still see the prospect for export asside French still available, but not as much as P8. This is competition not only for more or less similar size MPA (with A321 provide better range and potentially payload). However this also competition on business model.

From that interview Airbus already approaching customer with modular flexibility. Thus they approach for more bespoke option should the customer choose too (from their base offer). It all depends whether French will take this one,or rather Dasault one. There are potential French customers that could take it, but off course not in population of P8.

 

[John Fedup]

I still see the prospect for export asside French still available, but not as much as P8. This is competition not only for more or less similar size MPA (with A321 provide better range and potentially payload). However this also competition on business model.

From that interview Airbus already approaching customer with modular flexibility. Thus they approach for more bespoke option should the customer choose too (from their base offer). It all depends whether French will take this one,or rather Dasault one. There are potential French customers that could take it, but off course not in population of P8.

I can see potential opportunity for a business jet based MPA but other than France, what countries are left that can afford a A321XLR based MPA? I wonder if Airbus/France are considering a E-7 alternative based on the A321XLR?

 

[Ananda]

BBJ base MPA has better chances, but if Frenchie buy this and AIRBUS build it, they will need more export. I personaly don't want to underestimate both AIRBUS and France abilities on their lobby and opening export market.

Gulf Kingdoms can be an example, if they can get multiple fighters in their inventories, getting both BBJ and A321 based MPA are not improbable for them. Afterall they always keep multiple fleet types.

Then potential from other French customers in Southeast Asia, South Asia and South America. They can be customers, but off course will take time and will not in similar population base as current P8. India and Indonesia can be example, yes India already has P8i, but A321 MPA with bespoke Indian sensors and electronics with their MIC involvement can be attractive to New Dehli.

However if Airbus and France want to play long term game it is always possible. The matter is whether France want to commit on this and Airbus see market potential for it to build.

 

[koxinga]

Well, it seems to be almost official, the A321 has been selected by the French.

Avions de patrouille maritime : le ministère choisit Airbus

Le ministère des Armées a sélectionné la proposition d'Airbus Defence & Space au détriment de celle de Dassault Aviation pour le programme d'avions de patrouille maritime (Patmar). Ce programme vise à renouveler après 2030 la flotte constituée par 18 Atlantique 2.

www.latribune.fr

A couple of key export targets come to mind. Singapore needs to replace their Fokker 50s, which has been operating since the mid 1990s. Indonesia as well could be interesting. In South America, Brazil is exploring their MPA options.

Brazilian Air Force, Embraer launch study for surveillance fleet

A military source tells Defense News that Brazil has started looking for options to replace its P-3AM Orion maritime patrol aircraft starting in 2031.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Ananda]

Xavier on Euronaval 2024. Interviewing project managers of French OPV NG. Seems it is something that they develop to replace Floreal Frigate. The dimensions only slightly bigger, but perhaps build more on endurance in patrolling French overseas territories in Indies and South Pacific.