Burke vs. WW2 Japanese carrier group

[jarvis]

Apologies if this is the wrong forum and also if the thread topic seems childish, but a buddy and I have been arguing about this and from googling it seems the experts hang out in here.

Suppose you matched a newer block Burke against a WW2 Japanese carrier group. Say one carrier, a couple cruisers, and a destroyer screen. How exactly would the modern destroyer take 'em out?

It seems the carrier's air wing would be useless, as anything they put in the air would be a nice slow flying medium altitude large radar signature target to easily knock out of the sky from great distance.

The Japanese would also be blind, since the WW2 tactic of locating the enemy with scout planes would be impossible since they'd splash down as soon as they went up. Obviously the Burke would quickly locate the carrier group and in turn easily avoid being detected.

The sticking point we have is how does the Burke sink the ships? Would a barrage of SM2s be enough to sink the large old school armored warships? I don't think the Burke would want to come in range of the cruisers can it hit 'em with the 127 while staying out of range of the 8" guns on the cruisers? Would the AA guns be too much for SH-60 to throw some hellfires into their bridge? Maybe the Burke attacking from closer at night?

Thoughts appreciated, as we obviously don't have the depth of knowledge of the regulars in this forum and we'd love additional info to chew on.

Thanks

 

[windscorpion]

You have to consider, without the chance of resupply, how long does the ammo - especially SAMs - last?

 

[jarvis]

Agreed.

I was thinking with 35-40 torpedo planes and dive bombers rolling in at 230 mph that's easy ESSM fodder. The SM2's could be reserved for banging on the surface targets.

Either way that's the biggest factor: does the Burke have enough offensive counter-ship punch to win it.

Also - thanks for kind reply

 

[Systems Adict]

Mmm...

Nice Scenario !

I take it we're going on the assumptions that....

#A. We're on a war footing & that ALL vessels are bursting at the seams with full compliment of Ammo & crew / equipment, rather than a peace time load out (which is usually about 1/4 of FULL load out).

#B. Neither side has used any supplies / sustained ANY losses in a previous engagement (i.e. just left harbour & are meeting up)

#C. On following with the comments in the discussion of the original post, no resupply / no support or contact (in any form), for either side, with sympathetic forces.

#D. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ddg-51-specs.htm

... Are we going with a Flight I, or Flight II ?? (would prefer the Older / Flight I)



On this basis, I'd give a single Burke 85 to 90% chance of wiping the floor...



Justification:

1. That might only be a 5" gun on the front, but with the technology imbalance / use of modern accuracy / range calculations (all in the Burke's favour), it gives them at approx 9 miles away, in my books, a 3 or 4 to 1 hit probability against the opposing force (i.e. for every 3 or 4 hits on the battle group, they would be Lucky to score 1 on the Burke). More targets for the Burke to Hit, but only 1 ship for them to try & find !

2. Although they have torpedo bombers, the Torps are Dumb (no active tracking ability), so the planes have to fly a straight & steady course, with them dropping the torps no further away than say 1000 - 750 yards (purely so that they can get a proper hit on the Burke, as it's ability to out maneuver the group would be yet another technological imbalance). This would give ample opportunity for crewmen to use just about anything from GPMG's to things like Stinger / Javelin missiles. Add to this the use of CWIS, it safely puts about a 1KM safety zone around the ship.

The slim opportunity of a direct overhead Hi-altitude attack by fighters / Bombers would be the greatest fear of the Burke, but would be a suicide mission for the opposing force & may only have, at best, a 5% chance of succeeding!

3. Having NO Helo, but x2, 3 Tube Torpedo launchers & x2 Quad pack Harpoon launchers, The enemy, even with their greater numbers is facing with some license, an equivalent sized battle group, without it's carrier!

Having x8 Harpoon missiles & x12 Torps for the 3 barreled launchers (forgetting about the 90 standard missiles), it's pretty much a done deal that if they start with the Harpoon Missiles at 15 - 30 Miles, they would have a 95% kill rate. The Mk46 torpedo's would be launched at say 8,000 yards, again, because of the technological imbalance they'd have about a 75% kill rate.


Does anyone wanna agree, or shoot me down ??

Systems Adict :unknown

 

[kato]

Always half the numbers for standard double tapped sorties. One-fifth for the SM2 btw, at minimum, for a mission kill.

In addition, a Block IIA Burke doesn't carry Harpoon at all, not even the launchers to be filled on a war-footing. The VLS wouldn't have 90 SM2, gotta reserve at least 8 for ASROC, and another 16-24 for Tomahawk on standard loadout. No TASM.

The Mk46 is a primary anti-submarine torpedo btw. And the rather measly 98 lb warhead wouldn't be particularly useful against large surface ships.

Hence the "useful load" of a standardly-equipped Flight IIA Burke would essentially consist of roughly enough SM2 to mission-kill (not sink) around 12 targets. If we subtract the SM2 that would be spent on the air squadron, the ship would be down to... well, maybe enough for one target.

Approaching to 8000 yards would be suicidal, considering Japanese cruiser armament. Once blocked by say two hostile ships at such range, even just a 1% hit rate per gun on a mobile target at 12nm (easily achievable by then-standards) means that likely within 90 seconds the first round would impact. And with the barely-there armour of a Burke, it doesn't matter whether it'd be a destroyer's 5" or a cruiser's 6" or 8" gun.

 

[Grand Danois]

I think those IJN cruisers might be a bigger bite than that one would think. If they're CA's we're talking 10 x 8" guns each (plenty of firepower), a displacement of 13,000-15,000 tonnes, and built for taking a pummeling - well armoured and perhaps 35 kt sustained max. A single Mk 45 5" doesn't seem like an effective weapon... otoh the 5" would be a good weapon for taking down torpedo bombers at a fair range.

The Burkes Mk 46 torp sports a 98 lb warhead. Not much, but perhaps the best bet. I'd load the Mk 41 VLS with two dozen RUM-139 Vertical Launch ASROCs (Mk 46 torps) and use them as standoff weapons, as not to get into range of those 2 x 10 x 8" guns plus their secondary batteries - owie!

I'm not sure two quad cannisters with Harppons would be enough for two cruisers, a carrier and a destroyer screen!

 

[jarvis]

I was thinking a Block IIA Burke would have enough ESSM + gun alone to take out anything in the air that flies with a propeller and gives a big radar sig, so all the SM2s could be used for the surface targets, giving the advantage of being able to pelt 'em with 100% accuracy at a range where the Japanese ships would have nothing to fight back with. But as mentioned by above poster does the armor plated style of WW2 cruisers make 'em impervious to a SM2 warhead or not?

If I were that Burke I sure wouldn't want to come into pot shot range of the big guns of their cruisers, but I was thinking perhaps a modern 127 has more range than a 1937 built 8", at least for any reasonable effective accuracy.

Furthermore with their air wing reduced to nothing the helo might have a role at a standoff range, I dunno.

Again thanks for replies.

 

[Grand Danois]

If I were that Burke I sure wouldn't want to come into pot shot range of the big guns of their cruisers, but I was thinking perhaps a modern 127 has more range than a 1937 built 8", at least for any reasonable effective accuracy.

This was the standard wartime Japanese heavy cruiser weapon, having been mounted in dual mountings aboard the Furutaka, Aoba, Myoko, Takao, Mogamiand Tone classes.

Bore 8.0 inches
Weight 18.7 tons
Length OA 405.9 inches
Weight Projectile 277 lbs.
Muzzle Velocity 2756 ft/s
Max. Elevation +40/-5 degrees
Max. Range 32,150 yards
Rate of Fire 2-4/min

http://www.combinedfleet.com/203_50_2.htm

...and the Burke, assuming the mod 4 version...

Elevation With Conventional Projectiles using Mark 67 Cartridge
Range @ 47 degrees 25,880 yards (23,660 m)
Elevation With Conventional Projectiles using EX-175 Cartridge
Maximum Range about 40,000 to 42,000 yards (36,600 to 38,400 m)

With a loadout of 680 shells

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-62_mk45.htm

The 5" Mk45 of the Burke is LOF in ASuW mode. The SM-2 and ESSM are LOS. In other words, the CAs of the IJN will be able to pelt the Burke with gunfire - they don't need to be particularly accurate. The armour of the CAs vary, e.g. the turrets of the Mogami class only have 25 mm on the turrets - but up to 150 mm on other vitals.

So don't get into range. The Burke doesn't stand up to more than a few 8" shells inside the hull.

The reason the Burke is in trouble, is because the USN would use air power on such a target.

 

[jarvis]

If I was the O5 of that Burke I guess I'd keep my distance and work over their air wing and lob SM2s to cripple vitals on the surface ships during the day. When night comes close to gun/helo range and engage from max range with the advantage of modern darkness peekaboo technology.

Or of course on could always fall back on the classic move:

"Concentrate all fire on that superstar destroyer!"

 

[AegisFC]

The Burke has several advantages, for one it is smokeless and can accelerate faster than the Japanese ships, it is fairly LO (for a largish ship), the Burke could stalk the Japanese group at will and slip into LOS of individual ships at night and take them out one at a time before either retreating or moving on to the next target.
I wouldn't worry about the armor, WW2 ships were armored against point of contact torpedoes and the most common angles of gun fire at the time, take a look at the Italian battleship Roma, just 2 primitive Fritz X missiles sunk it, hitting it where it was not covered by the armored belt, so I wouldn't worry about a cruiser being able to shrug off an SM-2 coming in much faster. At the very least the Burke would mission kill them without too much effort.

To the original poster, you watched Zipang didn't you, it presents a similar scenario but with a JMDF ship.

 

[Grand Danois]

The Burke has several advantages, for one it is smokeless and can accelerate faster than the Japanese ships, it is fairly LO (for a largish ship), the Burke could stalk the Japanese group at will and slip into LOS of individual ships at night and take them out one at a time before either retreating or moving on to the next target.
I wouldn't worry about the armor, WW2 ships were armored against point of contact torpedoes and the most common angles of gun fire at the time, take a look at the Italian battleship Roma, just 2 primitive Fritz X missiles sunk it, hitting it where it was not covered by the armored belt, so I wouldn't worry about a cruiser being able to shrug off an SM-2 coming in much faster. At the very least the Burke would mission kill them without too much effort.

To the original poster, you watched Zipang didn't you, it presents a similar scenario but with a JMDF ship.

The Fritz-x was a glide bomb hitting the Roma on the deck and Roma sunk due to a flawed design... But the mission kill should be possible taking out the turrets and FC.

 

[kato]

To the original poster, you watched Zipang didn't you, it presents a similar scenario but with a JMDF ship.

Only to a limited extent, as Mirai was effectively not facing anything except a carrier's dive bomber squadron

In that scene, iirc Mirai was MKed with a 500lb bomb on the superstructure and a fighter kamikazeing itself into the bridge, after MKing the carrier with a single Harpoon to the hangar deck. Could still limp away though.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'm not too sure many of the Burks weapons systems are going to be viable against something as heavily armored as a cruiser. An SM-2's warhead is hardly comparable to an AP 8in shell or an AP 500lb bomb when dealing with that sort of protection. Critical points like the bridge could be effectively taken out, out i'm skeptical the Burke is going to be able to do any serious damage with anything but the Harpoons, and even they may not be able to do any really crippling damage, unless they hit a magazine.

 

[RubiconNZ]

On a side but related note, I am curious can the Tac-IV Tomahawk be tasked for anti shipping at all?

 

[AegisFC]

On a side but related note, I am curious can the Tac-IV Tomahawk be tasked for anti shipping at all?

No they can not.

 

[AegisFC]

Only to a limited extent, as Mirai was effectively not facing anything except a carrier's dive bomber squadron

In that scene, iirc Mirai was MKed with a 500lb bomb on the superstructure and a fighter kamikazeing itself into the bridge, after MKing the carrier with a single Harpoon to the hangar deck. Could still limp away though.

Actually I meant the whole concept of a Burke type ship facing off against WW2 ships. I never finished the series mostly because I'm just not an anime fan and I don't remember getting that far in the series.

 

[jarvis]

I've never seen that series, this just stemmed from a discussion with a friend.

We cover just about everything... one battalion of US Rangers versus General Howe's British Army in 1775, 1st Armored Division versus 1942 German army, AC-130 versus Cloverfield monster, etc.

 

[Sea Toby]

I don't like this thread's basis of the scenario. For starters, one Burke wouldn't come up against a WWII Japanese carrier task force. Destroyers don't patrol alone, so I would expect at least four destroyers. While the Japanese carrier would have to do the old air search for ships, it would seem to me the destroyers with their new radars and sensors would get the first strike. As long as the destroyers kept the flight deck on fire, lobbing a few harpoons every hour, they should prevail. Once the destroyers eliminated the aircraft threat, they could close in and use their torpedoes against a surface target.

 

[jarvis]

For starters, one Burke wouldn't come up against a WWII Japanese carrier task force.

Dang it you spotted a flaw... a Burke probably won't come up against a WWII task force.

 

[StingrayOZ]

There are a few navies who still or used to till very recently run WWII era ships.

While the USN is unlikely to face them off, there are navies that operate simular ships that may send them to face off almost single handedly.


ARA General Belgrano verse a destroyer. Or India is still operating a WWII carrier