The Indian Tejas

[niteshkjain]

Cruicial Missiles = WVR missiles.
Strategic Missiles = BVRs and or PGMs.
(I seriously hope that DODO is not considering to install Brahmos on LCA).

The 2,000 kg penalty weight that came with the F404 IN20 had to takes its toll somewhere. So it took on the weopons load decreasing it from 4 ton to 2 ton which is still slightly better then a Mig 21 (1.5 ton) that LCA is supposed to replace if inducted in time.

Aliph please apply some sort of logic if for LCA is not going to carry both WVR and BVR missiles then what the hell it is going to carry.

Can you please clarify.

 

[niteshkjain]

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/319117.html

LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat
Express News Service
Posted online: Friday, June 06, 2008 at 2222 hrs

New Delhi, June 5: The home-grown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is set to be inducted in 2011, will not be able to fly with a full-weapon load and will also need a new engine—instead of the Kaveri engine—to meet the minimum requirements for fighter aircraft drawn up by the Indian Air Force (IAF). To accommodate these modifications, the planes will also need to be redesigned.

In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat.
The primary reason for the problem is the lower thrust provided by the GE 404 engine powering the aircraft. While plans to develop a newer engine are under discussion, there is no scope for improvement at least for the first lot of 40 aircraft, of which 20 have already been ordered by the IAF. “There is no way that the first 40 aircraft will have any other engine than the GE 404. The engine gives a power of 80-85 Kilo Newton while the IAF requires them to have a capability of 95-100 Kilo Newton,” a top MoD source said, adding that the current thrust provided by the engine limits the angle of attack — a measure of the maneouverability of the aircraft—to 17 degrees against the IAF’s minimum requirement of 21 degrees. This makes the fighter unsuitable for aerial combat, especially given that neighbouring countries already possess more agile fighter planes.
With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified. This would need design changes that will take another 3-4 years,” the source said.
However, India is yet to decide whether to go in for a completely imported engine or jointly develop an engine with a leading international player. With the Kaveri engine making little headway, India is planning to rope in manufacturers like General Electric (US), Snecma (France), Rolls Royce (UK) and NPO Saturn (Russia) for the project.

 

[niteshkjain]

http://www.saharasamay.com/samayhtml/articles.aspx?newsid=100257

'Tejas' hot weather trial successful

Posted at Friday, 06 June 2008 09:06 IST
Bangalore, June 6: Hot weather flight trials of India's light combat aircraft Tejas were conducted successfully at Air Force Station in Nagpur.

The trials were planned at Nagpur because of the high ambient temperature conditions prevailing there during this period, a DRDO release said here.

The aim of the trials was to test operation of the aircraft systems under high ambient temperature conditions of over 40 degree Celsius and the stringent conditions the aircraft would be expected to operate in after its induction into the Indian Air Force.

A composite team of members from IAF (AF), ADA, HAL, CEMILAC, DGAQA, with support from Air Force Station, Nagpur and Maintenance Command, IAF, conducted the trials, the release said.

A total of seven flights amounting to four hours were flown at Nagpur on two prototype aircraft, PV2 and PV3.

The tests included flights at 200 metres above ground and speeds up to 1,000 km per hour after 'hot soaking' the aircraft on tarmac for two to four hours, where the aircraft skin temperature reached values in excess of 70 degree Celsius.

The test flights were monitored in real time using a mobile telemetry station of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), positioned at Nagpur for this purpose.

This was the first time that the Tejas aircraft had flown to a distance of about 1,000 km from Bangalore non-stop at such high ambient temperature conditions.

The aircraft is next planned for operations over the deserts of Rajasthan, delivering precision guided bombs, later this year, it said.

 

[kay_man]

grrrrr

This is just poor management on the part of drdo .
did they not know tht 95-100 kN thrust was needed before they ordered the ge404 . what the hell man

no wonder these retards get criticised soo much .

 

[niteshkjain]

This is just poor management on the part of drdo .
did they not know tht 95-100 kN thrust was needed before they ordered the ge404 . what the hell man

no wonder these retards get criticised soo much .

hey relax yaar, LCA is doing satisfactorily, engine and radar issues are there but for radar already Israel has been roped in, and for engine somebody will be roped in. Check the previous posts and chill

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Aliph please apply some sort of logic if for LCA is not going to carry both WVR and BVR missiles then what the hell it is going to carry.

Can you please clarify.

When did I say it wont ? It will but whatever number of weopons it was suppose to carry will be a lot less now.

Not sure what exactly you want me to clarify ? :unknown

 

[kay_man]

hey relax yaar, LCA is doing satisfactorily, engine and radar issues are there but for radar already Israel has been roped in, and for engine somebody will be roped in. Check the previous posts and chill

I am not worried about the intellectual capability of DRDO , these guys are some of the brightest ppl around , they have built very advanced weapon systems from scratch when there were a lot of embargoes on india and that too without any loss of life during testing.

but you must consider the time factor also . the first 20-40 aircrafts i am sure will be LABELLED as underpowered or substandard, not to mention we spend millions on engines that we will need to replace pretty soon .

I just hope the air force is as patient and optimistic as you are about this .

It just brings to mind the HF-24 marut .

im very sure the tejas wont end up like the marut but im just worried about the time and cost overruns and the possibilty of the IAF losing intrest.......all this could have been avoided u know .

 

[niteshkjain]

I am not worried about the intellectual capability of DRDO , these guys are some of the brightest ppl around , they have built very advanced weapon systems from scratch when there were a lot of embargoes on india and that too without any loss of life during testing.

but you must consider the time factor also . the first 20-40 i am sure will be LABELLED as underpowered or substandard, not to mention we spend millions on engines that we will need to replace pretty soon .

I just hope the air force is as patient and optimistic as you are about this .

It just brings to mind the HF-24 marut .

im very sure the tejas wont end up like the marut but im just worried about the time and cost overruns and the possibilty of the IAF losing intrest

check this, empty weight of the much large typhoon is 11 tons and F16 later blocks around 9tons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16

how is indian media claiming the weight of Tejas is 10 tons now ? is it
loaded weight i.e. with full internal fuel ? or mtow with full fuel & weapons?

IAF is doing mission-creepitis trying to make a day1 MRCA out of it.

imo for A2A:
internal radar + 2 wing tanks + 4 BVR missiles + 2 wvr is adequate +
60-100% internal fuel.

for A2G:
80-100% internal fuel + Litening + 2 x 1000lb LGB / 4 x 500lb LGB / 6 x 500lb unguided bombs + internal cannon should work fine in CAS/BAI

they seem to want turn performance of a F-16-block15 , climb rates of a
stripped down Mig31, acceleration of a F22 , wing loading of a piper moth,
cost of a Mig21FL and payload of a F15E with ECM of a F15I
all shoehorned into Tejas !

This is just to give the examples that most of the reports that are coming in media are from some "unnamed sources". Whereas reports of successful trials are from official sources. Now you are free to come to conclusion

Referring to wikipedia is strongly discouraged. Use more credible source, which cannot be edited by anyone.
- SABRE

 

[kay_man]

check this, empty weight of the much large typhoon is 11 tons and F16 later blocks around 9tons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16

how is indian media claiming the weight of Tejas is 10 tons now ? is it
loaded weight i.e. with full internal fuel ? or mtow with full fuel & weapons?

IAF is doing mission-creepitis trying to make a day1 MRCA out of it.

imo for A2A:
internal radar + 2 wing tanks + 4 BVR missiles + 2 wvr is adequate +
60-100% internal fuel.

for A2G:
80-100% internal fuel + Litening + 2 x 1000lb LGB / 4 x 500lb LGB / 6 x 500lb unguided bombs + internal cannon should work fine in CAS/BAI

they seem to want turn performance of a F-16-block15 , climb rates of a
stripped down Mig31, acceleration of a F22 , wing loading of a piper moth,
cost of a Mig21FL and payload of a F15E with ECM of a F15I
all shoehorned into Tejas !

This is just to give the examples that most of the reports that are coming in media are from some "unnamed sources". Whereas reports of successful trials are from official sources. Now you are free to come to conclusion

OOOOOOOOOOO YEAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!

i only realised this flaw after you mentioned it . most sources cofirm the weight of the LCa as around 5 tons...and full load as 12.5 tons !!!!!!

noe even if we add 2 tons as people are claiming we still have 7 tons empty weight...........where did the 10 tons come from ???!!!!!nfloorl:

You don't need to be sarcastic to make your point. Adopt a proper approach and try not to use the "laughing on floor" icon, regardless of it being in our options.
- SABRE

 

[niteshkjain]

When did I say it wont ? It will but whatever number of weopons it was suppose to carry will be a lot less now.

Not sure what exactly you want me to clarify ? :unknown

Hey sorry I got you wrong

 

[niteshkjain]

Posting this old news about clarifying the angle of attack issue

http://www.thehindu.com/2005/05/08/stories/2005050801521100.htm

LCA Tejas completes 400 test flights

Special Correspondent

BANGALORE: Light Combat Aircraft Tejas completed 400 test flight sorties early on Saturday when the aircraft's Technology Demonstrator 1 (TD-1) and Proto Vehicle 1 (PV-1) were launched. Wing Commander Raj Tyagi and Wing Commander Vikram Singh flew the two aircraft, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said here.

Tejas TD-1 has been fitted with a new air data probe after its scheduled servicing. The latest test flights were for calibration of air data system at different altitudes and speeds for the TD-1. Wg. Cdr. Singh has so far flown the highest number — 112 — of test sorties on Tejas.

Both aircraft flew for 47 minutes each. TD-1 is now ready for exploration of the flight envelope further, the ADA said. The LCA has already flown at speeds up to 1.4 mach at an altitude of 15 km. The ``angle of attack'' of 20 degrees and manoeuvre load of 4 per cent G (indicating the resistance to gravity) have been achieved on the three prototype aircraft.

The fourth aircraft (PV-2) with reduced structural weight, completely new avionics, and cockpit displays is now going through ground vibration and structural coupling tests. This aircraft will also be fitted with multi-mode radar, R 73 missiles, and drop tanks. Its maiden flight is scheduled for next month.

 

[rjmaz1]

The American company makes more powerful GE414 engines, which power the US Air Force's mainstay F-16 fighting falcons,

Hahaha nfloorl:

Sounds like a school boy is writing these new articles..

Keep the sarcasm to a limit and provide credible information apposed to the article instead. ... and try not to use "nfloorl:"
- SABRE

The 2,000 kg penalty weight that came with the F404 IN20 had to takes its toll somewhere

Umm, what are you talking about?

2,000kg penalty
A F404 engine only weighs 1000kg. So does the LCS have another two F404 hidden somewhere?

I dont think you know what your talking about here..

 

[niteshkjain]

Hahaha nfloorl:

Sounds like a school boy is writing these new articles..


Umm, what are you talking about?

2,000kg penalty
A F404 engine only weighs 1000kg. So does the LCS have another two F404 hidden somewhere?

I dont think you know what your talking about here..

Dont blame me, I just posted the news Even i am amused by the way they report the things.

 

[vetrival]

HAL is now ready to consider the TEJAS as a multirole aircraft but it will still remain a Light Combat Aircraft and there will be no significant increase in it's projected payload.The previous problems with the Kaveri engine are in the process of being addressed, this should provide the LCA with greater thrust and the ability to carry full combat load while maintaining the required flight performance and the ability to supercruise(only when armed with an air to air weapons package).The said engine will be ready by 2009-2010 for flight testing(according to the Deffence Minister's scientific advisors) and for integration with the TEJAS by 2012-2014.The problem with the radar on the other hand is being solved by bringing Israel’s Elta Systems Ltd into the program, Elta will either provide of the shelf EL/M-2052 AESA radars or co-develop a new radar based on the aforementioned radar.Whatever may be the case the AESA radar will provide the TEJAS with a huge advantage as none of the aircrafts in service with pakistan or china have AESA capabilities. When the final variant of the TEJAS rolls out(2012-2014) it will be a true 4++ generation fighter capable of thrashing PAF's f-16s and JF-17s.
Use paragraphing, other wise its hard & boring to read.
Today I feel like an English teacher.
-SABRE

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

HAL is now ready to consider the TEJAS as a multirole aircraft but it will still remain a Light Combat Aircraft and there will be no significant increase in it's projected payload.The previous problems with the Kaveri engine are in the process of being addressed, this should provide the LCA with greater thrust, the ability to carry full combat load while maintaining the required flight performance and the ability to supercruise(only when armed with an air to air weapons package).The said engine will be ready by 2009-2010 for flight testing(according to the Deffence Minister's scientific advisors) and for integration with the TEJAS by 2012-2014.The problem with the radar on the other hand is being solved by bringing Israel’s Elta Systems Ltd into the program, Elta will either provide of the shelf EL/M-2052 AESA radars or co-develop a new radar based on the aforementioned radar.Whatever may be the case the AESA radar will provide the TEJAS with a huge advantage as none of the aircrafts in service with pakistan or china have AESA capabilities.To conclude when the final variant of the TEJAS rolls out(2012-2014) it will be a true 4++ generation fighter capable of thrashing PAF's f-16s and JF-17s.

First, You need to "fix" LCA before you start comparing it to any other plane.

As of today (after 20+ years), LCA is in no better shape then an advanced trainer.

What the future holds is very uncertain and it goes double for LCA based on its past history of delays.

As the technology becomes available and not to mention quantum jump that the Chinese are making in aerospace industry (something really to envy), capabilities of planes (with Chinese input) in the region will be quite serious.

and also you can not ignore the fact that other planes will also be upgraded/modified further and further but that is another issue. I like to live in present and not into "will have this or that" stuff.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,the lca has successfully completed its hot weather trials and is now proceeding to test its air to ground precision strike capability.

here is the link and the article:

http://www.aol.in/news/story/2008060609339012000010/India/index.html

India's jet fighter to deliver precision guided bombs

Indo Asian News Service

Last Updated: June 06, 2008 09:35:22

New Delhi, June 6 (IANS) After successful completion of its hot weather trials, India's indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas will now be configured to deliver precision guided bombs.
The trials for this will take place in the Rajasthan desert later this year, a defence ministry official said Friday.
Already running 10 years behind schedule, the supersonic multi-role fighter aircraft would, however, be armed with only 'limited weaponry' when it is inducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2012.
Earlier Tejas, a project of the state-runHindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), was to have been armed with air-to-air beyond visual range missiles, air-to-ground missiles and cluster bombs. However, the limited thrust provided by its GE-404 engine has limited its arsenal.
India will soon invite bids for developing a more powerful engine for the Tejas as the development of its indigenous Kaveri engine is yet to be completed.
The delay in the Tejas project prompted the IAF to float a global tender last year for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. The responses are now being examined and field trials of the aircraft in contention are likely to begin early next year.
The aim of the hot weather trials was to check operation of the aircraft's systems under high ambient temperature conditions of over 40 degree Celsius.
'A first look at the test data indicated that all the trial objectives were met satisfactorily. The aircraft is now being configured for delivering precision guided bombs in the deserts of Rajasthan later this year,' an official said.
During the trials, the Tejas flew non-stop for more than 1,000 km from Bangalore, where it has been undergoing flight trials since 2000, when it first flew. This was made possible by the recent integration of external fuel tanks on the aircraft.

 

[vetrival]

First, You need to "fix" LCA before you start comparing it to any other plane.

As of today (after 20+ years), LCA is in no better shape then an advanced trainer.

What the future holds is very uncertain and it goes double for LCA based on its past history of delays.

As the technology becomes available and not to mention quantum jump that the Chinese are making in aerospace industry (something really to envy), capabilities of planes (with Chinese input) in the region will be quite serious.

and also you can not ignore the fact that other planes will also be upgraded/modified further and further but that is another issue. I like to live in present and not into "will have this or that" stuff.

The problems with the LCA are already being fixed.In February 2006, the ADA awarded a contract to the French aircraft engine company SNECMA for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems, other companies such as the the NPO Saturn and the EuroJet Turbo GmbH have also offerd to provide assistance.
The Israeli's are helping out with the LCA's radar(they will provide the EL/M-2052 AESA radar) also with the advent of the MMRCA deal another alternative has arisen which is the upcoming E-CAPTOR(AESA) wich is meant for the the Tranche 3 Eurofighters .The EuroRadar consortium and specifically EADS have already offered to either provide the aforementioned EF radar or to co-develop a new radar with India based upon the E-CAPTOR (The offer was made probably to strenthen the Eurofighter's position in the MMRCA deal).
The steps taken by ADA and HAL to involve foreign companies will ensure that the problems that the LCA was facing(radar and engine)will be the properly addressed (though this will put a dent in India's claim that the LCA is a truely indigenius aircraft).
The advancements made by China in the aerospace sector are definately commendable but the Indian aerospace sector is also ready to compete with it's Chinese counterpart on an equal footing.
As far as the future upgrades on the other planes(the JF-17 perhaps?) are concerned neither China nor Pakistan(the two major adversaries of the IAF) are going to aquire AESA radar tech in the near future(the US effectively trashed China's attempt to aquire advanced radar tech from other countries) and to develop a credible AESA systen indigeniusly would require atleast 2 decades.
U may like to live only in the present but I like to plan for the future and prepare contingencies(planning for the future is one of the hallmarks of effective management).

 

[swerve]

... another alternative has arisen which is the upcoming E-CAPTOR(AESA) wich is meant for the the Tranche 3 Eurofighters or the AMSAAR(another AESA option for the EF).The EuroRadar consortium and specifically EADS have already offered to either provide the aforementioned EF radars or to co-develop a new radar with India based upon E-CAPTOR or AMSAAR(The offer was made probably to strenthen the Eurofighter's position in MMRCA deal).....

Slight misunderstanding here. AMSAR (not AMSAAR) isn't a radar, it's a joint technology development programme, which has had inputs into E-CAPTOR (aka CAESAR, or Captor ASEA Radar) & other W. European AESA radars.

 

[vetrival]

Slight misunderstanding here. AMSAR (not AMSAAR) isn't a radar, it's a joint technology development programme, which has had inputs into E-CAPTOR (aka CAESAR, or Captor ASEA Radar) & other W. European AESA radars.

I have taken note of my mistake and will make the necessary corrections. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

The problems with the LCA are already being fixed.In February 2006, the ADA awarded a contract to the French aircraft engine company SNECMA for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems, other companies such as the the NPO Saturn and the EuroJet Turbo GmbH have also offerd to provide assistance.

Being offerred assistance is not considered 'fixed".

The Israeli's are helping out with the LCA's radar(they will provide the EL/M-2052 AESA radar) also with the advent of the MMRCA deal another alternative has arisen which is the upcoming E-CAPTOR(AESA) wich is meant for the the Tranche 3 Eurofighters .The EuroRadar consortium and specifically EADS have already offered to either provide the aforementioned EF radar or to co-develop a new radar with India based upon the E-CAPTOR (The offer was made probably to strenthen the Eurofighter's position in the MMRCA deal).

Being Helped and being offered is no where even close to considered as "fixed".

The steps taken by ADA and HAL to involve foreign companies will ensure that the problems that the LCA was facing(radar and engine)will be the properly addressed (though this will put a dent in India's claim that the LCA is a truely indigenius aircraft)


The advancements made by China in the aerospace sector are definately commendable but the Indian aerospace sector is also ready to compete with it's Chinese counterpart on an equal footing.

Ready to compte on Equal footing ? Are you serious? Lol. LCA is a prime example how ready to compete on equal footing Indian Aerospace Sector is !!

As far as the future upgrades on the other planes(the JF-17 perhaps?) are concerned neither China nor Pakistan(the two major adversaries of the IAF) are going to aquire AESA radar tech in the near future(the US effectively trashed China's attempt to aquire advanced radar tech from other countries) and to develop a credible AESA systen indigeniusly would require atleast 2 decades.

Yes and they told you personally that eh ?

U may like to live only in the present but I like to plan for the future and prepare contingencies(planning for the future is one of the hallmarks of effective management).

You seriously need to tell that to DODO. The number of will you use says it all.

Which brings us back to the same point. LCA is NOT fixed and as of today it is no better then a trainer. So not a good idead to compare it with other aircrafts untill LCA is "fixed".