The Indian Tejas

[kay_man]

aaj ke taja samachar

dna news,

india looking for new engine for lca tejas. the news also stated that though lca has gained 2000 kgs more its mainly because of technology and electronics additions, but that also has made the tejas the most densely packed plane in its class electronically.

and the scientists are gonna keep working to put lca on diet. as for the kaveri engine...its still in test phase and from what it looks like the most likely contender for the engine is the ge414 with maybe some modification.

oh and the airforce is cosidering to order another 20 aircrafts.

 

[niteshkjain]

Hey can you please give the source for this news

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

If the plane has increased in weight by a huge 2,000 kgs, Is it safe to assume that Kaveri (which was originally designed and in building phase for almost a decade and still far from complete) is out of the question for LCA unless it is also modified to produce extra extra thousand of pounds worth of thrust to match the heavier LCA ?

If a new engine is indeed adapted for the two ton heavier LCA, then the engine will require further modifications to the airframe thus, changing the aerodynamics and that means automatically slippage of the plane's induction date by another couple of years if it ever will be inducted at the first place.

A failed design (Two axis plane) can only go so far. Even the upgraded mirages have three axis now not to mention all latest and modern deltas be it Typhoon, Grippen, J-10 or Rafale.

I think LCA is being kept alive by political establishment. Indian Airforce hasnt shown much interest. Pace of LCA only picked up once the Indian navy entered the fray but a single engine two axis plane with huge reliablity questions taking on and off from the carrier ? This wil be very interesting to see if one ever get to see it at the first place.

 

[wp2000]

update on LCA progress

I have not followed LCA's progress for a while. But recent posts are confusing to me.

My understanding was, at the end of 2006,
1. 2010 IOC, although no one knew whether that's the start of the IOC or the end of the IOC.

2. To achieve this goal, following planes should be ready by 2010:

PV3, done in Jan or Feb 2007
PV4, cancelled,
PV5 twin seater, OCT 2007 ??
PV6 twin seater, sometime 2008
NLCA1 and 2, optionally sometime 2010
LSP1, done in April 2007
LSP2, Aug 2007 ??
LSP3, Nov 2007 ??
LSP 4-8, sometme in 2008
20 Serial Production version LCA for IOC: 2009-2010, 10 planes per year.

Am I off by much? Are PV5 and LSP2/3 flying?

Thanks

 

[niteshkjain]

If the plane has increased in weight by a huge 2,000 kgs, Is it safe to assume that Kaveri (which was originally designed and in building phase for almost a decade and still far from complete) is out of the question for LCA unless it is also modified to produce extra extra thousand of pounds worth of thrust to match the heavier LCA ?

If a new engine is indeed adapted for the two ton heavier LCA, then the engine will require further modifications to the airframe thus, changing the aerodynamics and that means automatically slippage of the plane's induction date by another couple of years if it ever will be inducted at the first place.

A failed design (Two axis plane) can only go so far. Even the upgraded mirages have three axis now not to mention all latest and modern deltas be it Typhoon, Grippen, J-10 or Rafale.

I think LCA is being kept alive by political establishment. Indian Airforce hasnt shown much interest. Pace of LCA only picked up once the Indian navy entered the fray but a single engine two axis plane with huge reliablity questions taking on and off from the carrier ? This wil be very interesting to see if one ever get to see it at the first place.

Aliph first go through this latest link and kindly put some more thoughts before posting anything

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200805301321.htm

Light combat aircraft hot weather trial successful
Nagpur (PTI): The much-awaited hot weather trial phase of prestigious Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme went off successful between Bangalore and Nagpur, defence sources said on Friday.

The progarmme got underway on Thursday with a flawless ferry flight of prototype vehicle-3(PV-3) and this was the first operation ferry flight of Tejas with external drop tanks which are intended to enhance the range/radius of action of aircraft, a defence release said.

In the event, the fuel system functioned perfectly, paving the way for more such long range ferry flight and out station trials. The LCA was ferried from Bangalore to Nagpur in about an hour's flying time and reached the destination with more than adequate fuel.

Over the next one week, the aircraft would be subjected to hot soaks on the ground followed by representative flight profiles at low and medium attitudes to check proper functioning of all on board systems under conditions of extreme heat which prevails in Nagpur.

The successful completion of these trials would thus mark a significant step towards attainment of all important initials operational clearence(IOC)and subsequent induction into the squadron service with the Indian Air Force, the release added.

 

[kay_man]

To aliph,

you are correct in saying that the kaveri replacement will require some modification to the air frame......but since the kaveri was made keeping in mind the LCA the modifications will be minimum.
also the kaveri produces more dry thrust than the current american F-404 in20 ...so even if it delivers a liitle less performance because of the increase in weight , it will still be much better than the current one.

also the kaveri is being worked on with french help (SNECMA if im not wrong ) so it will be ready pretty soon .

 

[kay_man]

Re:

I have not followed LCA's progress for a while. But recent posts are confusing to me.

My understanding was, at the end of 2006,
1. 2010 IOC, although no one knew whether that's the start of the IOC or the end of the IOC.

2. To achieve this goal, following planes should be ready by 2010:

PV3, done in Jan or Feb 2007
PV4, cancelled,

correct.

PV5 twin seater, OCT 2007 ??
PV6 twin seater, sometime 2008

under construction .

NLCA1 and 2, optionally sometime 2010
LSP1, done in April 2007
LSP2, Aug 2007 ??
LSP3, Nov 2007 ??

done already .

LSP 4-8, sometme in 2008

under construction .

20 Serial Production version LCA for IOC: 2009-2010, 10 planes per year.

they will be ready by 2011-2012 rather than 2010 .some body was being overly optimistic.

Am I off by much? Are PV5 and LSP2/3 flying?

Thanks

im not going to provide links for all but im pretty sure ull be able to find them on google/bharat rakshak etc etc ....pretty sound knowledge u have by the way .

 

[wp2000]

Thank you Kay_man, I just want a summerisation of the latest status.

So now the only confusing thing is whether LSP2,3 and PV5 are flying or not.

I remember 1-2 years ago I discussed the LCA status here and I thought the idea that 20 LCA for IOC by 2010 is nearly impossible, unless ADA/DRDO can finish all the LSP by 2008. Which means in 2007 and 2008, 4-5 new LCAs must join testing.

Now the confusing thing is, it seems that 2007 only had seen one new LCA (LSP1) flying. The PV3 was a long delayed one that which I didn't include in my calculation. I still can't find any news or threads on LSP2, LSP3 and PV5's test flights.

 

[niteshkjain]

Some info on Tejas

http://www.ada.gov.in/index.html
http://www.ada.gov.in/nasa.exe

 

[niteshkjain]

Finally something is moving towards engine front

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...bids-for-indigenous-lca-engines_10056376.html

India to invite bids for indigenous LCA engines

June 4th, 2008 - 2:47 pm ICT by IANS - Email This Post


New Delhi, June 4 (IANS) India will soon invite bids for developing a more powerful engine for the homemade Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas as the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine is yet to be completed, an official said Wednesday. Tejas, meant to replace the ageing MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force (IAF), is currently under development in Bangalore for the last couple of decades.

“A committee has been constituted and it is in talks with international players for developing a more powerful engine for Tejas. A RFP (request for proposal) in this regard will soon be issued,” an official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) told IANS on condition of anonymity.

The Aeronautical Development Agency of the DRDO is developing the supersonic combat aircraft along with the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

“Currently, two international companies are in the fray but the contract will be issued through due process and the company will be required to develop the engine under a joint venture with India,” the official told IANS.

The IAF has placed an order for 20 Tejas lightweight multi-role planes, India’s second indigenous fighter aircraft, and is inclined to increase the number to 40.

Earlier, it was planned that a turbofan engine, the GTX-35VS Kaveri, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), would be fitted to the production aircraft. But delays in development led to the purchase of General Electric engines, which even got through rough weather due to the sanction imposed post 1998 nuclear tests.

The IAF had expressed reservations about the GE engines as it increased the plane’s weight from 8,000 kg to 10,000 kg. This delayed the production of the aircraft and it will be ready for delivery only by 2011.

 

[kay_man]

Thank you Kay_man, I just want a summerisation of the latest status.

So now the only confusing thing is whether LSP2,3 and PV5 are flying or not.

I remember 1-2 years ago I discussed the LCA status here and I thought the idea that 20 LCA for IOC by 2010 is nearly impossible, unless ADA/DRDO can finish all the LSP by 2008. Which means in 2007 and 2008, 4-5 new LCAs must join testing.

Now the confusing thing is, it seems that 2007 only had seen one new LCA (LSP1) flying. The PV3 was a long delayed one that which I didn't include in my calculation. I still can't find any news or threads on LSP2, LSP3 and PV5's test flights.

There have been no recent updates on the Pv 5....but last i heard they were building it.

As for the pv3....it was made long time ago...and in fact the EXTERNAL DROP TANKS were tested on tht model. if im not wrong even the missile firing tests were conducted on pv3 .

And last but not least there are 3 LSP versions that have been handed over for testing....

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

To aliph,

you are correct in saying that the kaveri replacement will require some modification to the air frame......but since the kaveri was made keeping in mind the LCA the modifications will be minimum.
also the kaveri produces more dry thrust than the current american F-404 in20 ...so even if it delivers a liitle less performance because of the increase in weight , it will still be much better than the current one.

also the kaveri is being worked on with french help (SNECMA if im not wrong ) so it will be ready pretty soon .

Original Kaveri designed for the original LCA produced optimal thrust.

F404 procured as a stop gap measure for the original LCA was under powered.

So Indians installed an already underpowered engine on a two ton heavier plane.

So it is safe to conclude that LCA in its current form and the confirmed order of 8 + 20 will be really under powered planes.

Untill the French help out the Indians fixing the Kaveri and even then if the thrust is not increased, the TWR will be less then the TWR that was suppose to be for the original Kaveri on orignal LCA.

So we are looking at underpowered LCAs for quite a while. :shudder

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

The two thousand kilo grams increase in weight was due to installation of the GE engine and not due to excessive electronics.

How can ADA and DODO not forsee it before ordering it ? I mean the manual must have mentioned the weight of engine somewhere !!

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/india-to-invite-bids-for-indigenous-lca-engines_10056376.html

^^^
India to invite bids for indigenous LCA engines. Seems like Kaveri has hit some dead end againnnn.

 

[aaaditya]

Original Kaveri designed for the original LCA produced optimal thrust.

F404 procured as a stop gap measure for the original LCA was under powered.

So Indians installed an already underpowered engine on a two ton heavier plane.

So it is safe to conclude that LCA in its current form and the confirmed order of 8 + 20 will be really under powered planes.

Untill the French help out the Indians fixing the Kaveri and even then if the thrust is not increased, the TWR will be less then the TWR that was suppose to be for the original Kaveri on orignal LCA.

So we are looking at underpowered LCAs for quite a while. :shudder

the first batch of 20 lca's would be equipped with ge-404-in20 engines ,not the original ge engines.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news here,lca's radar fitted variant is expected to fly this year.

here is the link and the article:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nagpur/Radar-fitted_Tejas_this_year/articleshow/3089649.cms

NAGPUR: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is producing the indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas, will soon be coming with a new radar-fitted version of this fighter aircraft.

Currently in the production stage, the radar-fitted Tejas is expected to roll out this year itself, say sources. So far, the HAL has developed five prototypes and two technology demonstrators of the aircraft. This is now being followed by the limited series production (LSP). A prototype is similar to a laboratory version while and LSP comes straight from the production lines in the factory. Making LSPs is the next stage in aircraft production.

At present, the first under the LSP series, LSP-1, has already rolled out and LSP-2 is expected to be flying within less than a month. LSP-3 is expected to come out within this year and would be fitted with the radar mechanism. The radar will help in making precise hits.

"With a radar, the pilot can identify the target with more accuracy and also determine the range before it hits. Moreover, the present aircraft have already been fitted with laser-powered pods (LDPs) to drop bombs with accuracy," said a source. This makes it among one of the best aircraft of its kind in the world, added the source.

Tejas, which is being built jointly by HAL and Aeronautics Development Agency - an arm of the defence research and development organisation (DRDO) - is in Nagpur since two days. The prototype aircraft, PV-3, was flown from Bangalore on Thursday while the PV-2 was flown on Saturday.

The prototypes are undergoing various tests before aircraft of the final make is inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF). This will be followed by tests on LSPs, after which Tejas will get the much awaited initial operational clearance (IOC) followed by a final operational clearance. Once the configuration is finalised, regular production would begin.

There are plans to make eight aircraft in the LSP series which will also undergo certain tests too, and the final version to be used by the IAF will be based on the LSPs. Tejas is expected to be inducted into the IAF by 2010.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news,lca's jet fuel starter has been successfully tested.

here is the link and the article:


http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/01/24/stories/0224000y.htm

PTAE-7 jet engine trial successful




By Our Staff Reporter
BANGALORE, JAN. 23. The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) today announced the successful trial of the indigenously-designed and developed remote-controlled PTAE-7 jet engine and the state-of- the-art jet fuel starter (JFS) fitted in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), with the JFS demonstrating its starting capability on the main engine of the LCA during its maiden flight.
With the success of PTAE-7, the first turbo jet engine developed in the country, India joined a select group of nations, including the United States, Russia, France and the U.K. that have developed this class of engine.
Designed and developed by the Engine and Test Bed Research and Design Centre, Engine Division, HAL, Bangalore, the jet engine will power the pilotless target aircraft, Lakshya, developed by the ADE.
Lakshya is to be used for ground-air, air-air and ship-air missile target practice. The flight is commanded from the ground by telemetry and the aircraft can be recovered by parachute, both in land and water. The aircraft is provided with two targets on a 1.5 km-cable, and in case of emergency, auto recovery is possible. The maximum flight time is 50 minutes and a maximum life of 10 recoveries is envisaged.
PTAE-7 is a single shaft, lightweight, low-cost, short-life engine. The engine comprises a four-stage transonic axial compressor, a single-stage turbine, an annular flow combustion chamber and 16 fuel flow burners.
The PTAE-7 develops a thrust of 380 kg.f at ISA sea level static conditions with a specific fuel consumption of 1.15 kg./kg.f/hr. It has a length of 1,270 mm. and a maximum diameter of 330 mm., and weighs 65 kg. The engine is designed with materials and features for protection against seawater corrosion so that it can be used again after its recovery from sea.
Two of the engines were tested successfully three times at Balasore in Orissa in December. Each time, the engine was recovered from the sea, refurbished and re-run on the ground.
According to HAL officials, most of the critical qualification tests for the JFS have been completed. On completion of the tests, flight clearance was given for it in LCA, TD1 and TD2 aircraft for development flight trials.
Designed and developed by HAL's Engine and Test Bed Research and Design Centre, the JFS (GTSU-110) has the capability to provide inflight starting of the LCA main engine up to an altitude of 6 kms. The JFS also demonstrated its capability to start at Leh, the highest altitude airport in the world, during extreme cold conditions.
The designs were initiated by Mr. T.V. Vareed, founder and erstwhile Chief Designer of the Engine Design Bureau.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

the first batch of 20 lca's would be equipped with ge-404-in20 engines ,not the original ge engines.

GE 404 IN20 sure has more thrust but it also came at the cost of extra 2,000 kg in weight which by the size of LCA is huge.

So the current LCA despite having more thrust is still under powered.

Please see post number 175 for the link.

 

[wp2000]

hey guys,interesting news here,lca's radar fitted variant is expected to fly this year.

here is the link and the article:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nagpur/Radar-fitted_Tejas_this_year/articleshow/3089649.cms

...
At present, the first under the LSP series, LSP-1, has already rolled out and LSP-2 is expected to be flying within less than a month. LSP-3 is expected to come out within this year and would be fitted with the radar mechanism. The radar will help in making precise hits.
...
There are plans to make eight aircraft in the LSP series which will also undergo certain tests too, and the final version to be used by the IAF will be based on the LSPs. Tejas is expected to be inducted into the IAF by 2010.

Here's why I am confused. I thought LSP2 and 3 were flying already in 2007. But ?????

If this is true, then literally since the beginning of 2007, only one new LCA(LSP1) has made to the sky, barring PV3 which was supposed to fly long time before 2007.

Interesting to check LCA's status next year.

 

[niteshkjain]

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=577853

Already running 10 years behind schedule, the country's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft Tejas would be carrying only "limited weaponry" when they get ready by 2012.

As the first of these indigenous fighters strive for initial operational clearance in 2010, experts have come up with sudden complications that Tejas' US aeroengine GE404 does not have requisite thrust to give it power to carry its full load of weaponry, highly-placed sources said.

Tejas, on induction, were slated to be armed with air-to-air beyond visual range missiles, air-to-ground missiles and full complement of heavy and medium precision and cluster bombs.

But during the recent weaponisation of the fighters, experts have found out that Tejas, with the present engines, cannot carry its full load of armaments including crucial missiles.

"LCA's present GE404 engines give a thrust of only 80-85 kilo newtons, while the weapon payload of the fighter needs a thrust of 95-100 kilo newtons," a source said, indicating the initial 40 Tejas fighters of the IAF, when inducted, would only be "weaponised to a limited role".

India's defence planners have already started negotiations with US company General Electric, Snecma of France, Rolls Royce of UK, European defence consortium EADS and Russian NPS-Saturn on "co-development" or "technology transfer" of a more powerful aeroengine for Tejas.

"As things stand, there is no way that the initial batch of Tejas fighters would be powered by any other engine than GE404," the source said.

Under an agreement signed with Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), the first 40 LCA fighters are to be powered by GE404.

The American company makes more powerful GE414 engines, which power the US Air Force's mainstay F-16 fighting falcons, the European consortium also makes EZ-200 engines for the Eurofighters.

Other companies who have the capability to make such engines are Rolls Royce, Snecma and NPS-Saturn.

But the official said that future Tejas fighters would be fitted with more powerful engines to give them capability to carry full complement of strategic weapons.

Sources said the final clearance for the Tejas would come by 2012 and Air Force would be in a position to operate LCA squadrons by 2015-16.

I had made some points in BOLD now what is "crucial missiles" and "strategic weapons". Can some body please elaborate.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=577853



I had made some points in BOLD now what is "crucial missiles" and "strategic weapons". Can some body please elaborate.

Cruicial Missiles = WVR missiles.
Strategic Missiles = BVRs and or PGMs.
(I seriously hope that DODO is not considering to install Brahmos on LCA).

The 2,000 kg penalty weight that came with the F404 IN20 had to takes its toll somewhere. So it took on the weopons load decreasing it from 4 ton to 2 ton which is still slightly better then a Mig 21 (1.5 ton) that LCA is supposed to replace if inducted in time.