IRIAF Tomcat

[chris30338]

Tomcat Forum

Parked doesn't mean they fly. What date is the International Air Power entry?

Sorry, they don't go by date, just by volume. This volume is 23. Please also check out the the Tomcat Association Forums. The link is below. These are the folks who actually built and flew these jets. There is a section on the Iranian Tomcats near the bottom of the Forum lists.

I can't post the link (this forum won't let me) but google "Tomcat-sunset.org" and put www in front. That should get you there.

Here's a link showing airborne Iranian Tomcats:

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/amirtomcat/3221/

Here are a couple of youtube clips of Iranian Tomcats.

[ame="http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=GRThVHE_2og"]YouTube - IRIAF F-14[/ame]

[ame="http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xeShdyTnrjA&feature=related"]YouTube - Iranian F-14 wiith AIM-54 Phoenix[/ame]


Hope this helps

 

[Feanor]

Thanks, I'll be sure to take a look, though agian even flight-capable doesn't mean combat ready. Your post implied that the Iranians still have a substantial Tomcat fleet, and have even managed to modernize it. I know Iran is pretty big on reverse engineering, and has managed to produce some fairly sophisticated stuff, but reverse engineering the Phoenix and modernizing the F-14 is a whole new level.

 

[chris30338]

Iranian Tomcats

Thanks, I'll be sure to take a look, though agian even flight-capable doesn't mean combat ready. Your post implied that the Iranians still have a substantial Tomcat fleet, and have even managed to modernize it. I know Iran is pretty big on reverse engineering, and has managed to produce some fairly sophisticated stuff, but reverse engineering the Phoenix and modernizing the F-14 is a whole new level.

If you live in the US, the "International Air Power" issue I was refering to is still on sale in stores such as Barnes & Noble and Borders if you're interested in reading the whole story. It's a quarterly publication.

 

[Actual]

Thanks, I'll be sure to take a look, though agian even flight-capable doesn't mean combat ready. Your post implied that the Iranians still have a substantial Tomcat fleet, and have even managed to modernize it. I know Iran is pretty big on reverse engineering, and has managed to produce some fairly sophisticated stuff, but reverse engineering the Phoenix and modernizing the F-14 is a whole new level.

I think me and Feanor once again agree.

Does anyone here believe their F-14s, F-4s or F-5s could ever meet for instance say RSAF's F-15s in combat? Never mind the USAF or USN.

Could IRIAF's fighter force as a whole sustain a CAP?

Anyone who really looks on Google Earth will find an Iranian air force without shelter, antiquated SAM defence and non-existant C4I.

 

[Feanor]

And after all if they had reverse engineered and managed to actually modernize the F-14, why would all their indigenous fighters be based around F-5/F-4 and some rumored Russian components?

Chris I'll try to get a hold of that International Air Power issue out of my next paycheck. Again thanks for the heads up.

EDIT: I didn't find it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Could anyone toss a link to where to get it please?

EDIT2: Ok I think I found it nvm, thanks.

 

[Actual]

And after all if they had reverse engineered and managed to actually modernize the F-14, why would all their indigenous fighters be based around F-5/F-4 and some rumored Russian components?

Chris I'll try to get a hold of that International Air Power issue out of my next paycheck. Again thanks for the heads up.

Wow, hold on. Their F-14s are far from modernised (unless you consider slinging I-HAWK SAMs in place of Phoenix AAM) - the tactical use of IRIAF's F-14s during the Iran-Iraq war was as 'mini-AWACS' using their long-range AWG-9 radar.

The absolute misery of the Iraqi air force is the true consideration here.

 

[chris30338]

Wow, hold on. Their F-14s are far from modernised (unless you consider slinging I-HAWK SAMs in place of Phoenix AAM) - the tactical use of IRIAF's F-14s during the Iran-Iraq war was as 'mini-AWACS' using their long-range AWG-9 radar.

The absolute misery of the Iraqi air force is the true consideration here.

Actually, they were far more than mini-awacs during the Iran-Iraq war. Tomcats were credited with over 150 victories. You might want to order the book below for the detailed story of the Iranian Tomcats and their role during that war.

 

[Actual]

Actually, they were far more than mini-awacs during the Iran-Iraq war. Tomcats were credited with over 150 victories. You might want to order the book below for the detailed story of the Iranian Tomcats and their role during that war.

I have the book.

IRIAF F-14s scored 150 victories... And you believe this?

 

[Actual]

Prey tell, what did they use?

I suggest you get hold of the following;

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iranian-Phantom-Combat-Osprey-Aircraft/dp/1841766585/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211226149&sr=1-1"]Amazon.co.uk: Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat (Osprey Combat Aircraft) (Osprey Combat Aircraft): Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop, Jim Laurier: Books[/ame]

How the true Irainian strength fought the air war.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Actually, they were far more than mini-awacs during the Iran-Iraq war. Tomcats were credited with over 150 victories. You might want to order the book below for the detailed story of the Iranian Tomcats and their role during that war.

That is ridiculous, some sources clam that more F-14 where shot down then them shooting down airplanes. And as far as I know the Top was -10 airplanes no way did they shoot down 150 if that was the case the U.S army would be ordering more F-14 by now.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Atilla, have a look at this:

Have a look at my comment? Iranians are underestimating the Iraqi airforce remember they had a lot of French Airplanes Mirages F-1's I believe not sure.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

Regardless, the IRIAF was in a rapid state of decline by the time the Iran-Iraq War began on 22 September 1980. Due to the poor state of both air forces, air power played little role in the conflict. Early air battles tended to favor the Iranians whose pilots were better equipped and trained, but the lingering arms embargo and repeated purges of experienced personnel continued to reduce the nation's air capabilities. Meanwhile, Iraq took delivery of Dassault Mirage F1s armed with Matra R-550 Magic air-to-air missiles that steadily improved the nation's effectiveness in the air.

As for the F-14s, only a small number were ever airworthy at any given time (generally 10 to 20) and these were typically kept out of combat. They were most often used as airborne early warning platforms owing to the design's powerful radar, and were therefore deemed too valuable to risk in air-to-air combat. In this role, the planes were sometimes defended by F-4E and F-5E fighters. At least some F-14s were lost in action, but the claims of the two sides are in poor agreement, as is always the case in warfare. Iraq claims some 11 kills:

1. 21 November 1982: F-14 shot down by a Mirage F1EQ
2. March 1983: F-14 shot down by a MiG-21
3. 11 September 1983: 2 F-14s shot down while attempting to intercept Iraqi aircraft
4. 4 October 1983: F-14 shot down in a dogfight
5. 21 November 1983: F-14 lost during air battle over Bahragan
6. 24 February 1984: F-14 lost
7. 1 July 1984: F-14 lost
8. 11 August 1984: 3 F-14s shot down

Meanwhile, Iran claims that the F-14 accounted for 35 to 45 kills against the Iraqi Air Force for only one shot down. Iran has admitted to up to 12 further losses, but claims they all resulted from engine stall during dogfights rather than enemy fire. Though the claims of neither side have been verified, F-14s are known to have accounted for 3 air-to-air kills against Iraqi aircraft, including two Mirage F1s and a MiG-21. Western estimates for the true kill-loss ratio attained by the F-14 during the conflict credit 4 kills against 4 or 5 losses.

 

[chris30338]

I have the book.

IRIAF F-14s scored 150 victories... And you believe this?

Remember that (a) These pilots were all American trained in the latest tactics and (b) They were flying superior jets with far superior weapon systems.

Read the book I mentioned earlier. It's very well written and provides a fair amount of technical detail without getting tedious.

 

[ROCK45]

Flying F-14s

chris30338
I to am a F-14 fan and saw them fly twice at air shows up and personnel but having them combat ready is very different then just flying. Put these classic fighters in afterburners a while put some Gs on them and then count up the total. One of the reasons the USN drop the mighty F-14s was maintenance issues and that's with a spare parts chain in place and trained personnel doing the work to keep them flying. I just can't see a large number of them being really combat ready, flying straight for a flyby was probably difficult enough just to pull off. Don't you think US or other forces in the region would have made more of a deal if Iran had 20+ operational F-14s? The film clip doesn't really mean much there's a little Hollywood everywhere if you know what I mean.

I have read in other forums that many question the Iranian claims of what the F-14 did during the war. I think some of claims are very possible I never been impressed with the Iraqi AF. Some facts remain Iran doesn't have a strong AF anymore the lack of new purchases have hurt them badly. No air power means even if they had long range SAMs they wouldn't be able to protect them or at least not for a long period of time. How many of there current aircraft could sortie two or three times in row and be combat infective? The handful of Mig-29s and F-14/F-5, etc isn't impressive even to 1991 standards never mind 2008 weapons standards.

 

[chris30338]

chris30338
I to am a F-14 fan and saw them fly twice at air shows up and personnel but having them combat ready is very different then just flying. Put these classic fighters in afterburners a while put some Gs on them and then count up the total. One of the reasons the USN drop the mighty F-14s was maintenance issues and that's with a spare parts chain in place and trained personnel doing the work to keep them flying. I just can't see a large number of them being really combat ready, flying straight for a flyby was probably difficult enough just to pull off. Don't you think US or other forces in the region would have made more of a deal if Iran had 20+ operational F-14s? The film clip doesn't really mean much there's a little Hollywood everywhere if you know what I mean.

I have read in other forums that many question the Iranian claims of what the F-14 did during the war. I think some of claims are very possible I never been impressed with the Iraqi AF. Some facts remain Iran doesn't have a strong AF anymore the lack of new purchases have hurt them badly. No air power means even if they had long range SAMs they wouldn't be able to protect them or at least not for a long period of time. How many of there current aircraft could sortie two or three times in row and be combat infective? The handful of Mig-29s and F-14/F-5, etc isn't impressive even to 1991 standards never mind 2008 weapons standards.

Keeping the F-14's flying is really a lot to do with pride in the aircraft itself and an acknowledgment from the Iranians that they know what a lethal weapon system this is. The pride part is something that's always mentioned in almost every story I read about why the Iranians are keeping these jets operational inspite of the cost. Another side benefit is the slap in the face to the United States knowing that they are keeping one of their most lethal weapon system's operational inspite of sanctions. The F-14/Phoenix combo is still unmatched in the Middle East. The AMRAAM cannot match the range of the AIM-54C. According to "International Air Power" magazine (volume#23), they spent over $1 Billion modernizing their fleet of about 44 aircraft. They wouldn't make an investment like that if they didn't think this aircraft could perform or just to use it for airshows. Iran is doing full depot level mainainance on their F-14 fleet which basically means stripping these aircraft down to the basic parts, refurbishing/replacing worn parts, replacing all the associated wiring, and rebuilding them.

Underestimating Iranian capabilities would be a serious mistake. Most analysts assumed that keeping the F-14's flying for this long was just not possible and way beyong Iranian know-how. As one analyst commented on seeing a photo of an overhauled Iranian F-14 "But its on the ground" or another comment was "Anyone can give an aircraft a fresh coat of paint". Naturally, seeing these aircraft actually flying is always a shock for folks who underestimate Iranian resourcefulness.

Granted, their air force isn't what it used to be. But then, they know they cannot match the United States in any air war. Their entire war plan depends on Hezbollah like tactics that gave the Israelis recently so much grief in Lebanon. Also, any American ground incursion into Iran would be foolhardy since almost all American supply lines travel through Shiite controlled southern Iraq. On top of that, the Iranians would completely let loose the Shiite militias to target American assets in Iraq which would make our position in Iraq pretty untennable. But this track is for another forum.

 

[AegisFC]

Keeping the F-14's flying is really a lot to do with pride in the aircraft itself and an acknowledgment from the Iranians that they know what a lethal weapon system this is. The pride part is something that's always mentioned in almost every story I read about why the Iranians are keeping these jets operational inspite of the cost. Another side benefit is the slap in the face to the United States knowing that they are keeping one of their most lethal weapon system's operational inspite of sanctions.

How is it a slap in the face? They can only fly a handful at a time and they either have to copy and fabricate parts themselves or pick over the carcass of another plane. A lot of these articles buy whole heartedly into the Iranian spin because people want to believe that despite everything they are managing to keep these planes in the air, and the truth is I doubt they can put a dozen of them in the air at any moment unless it is a staged event.

The F-14/Phoenix combo is still unmatched in the Middle East. The AMRAAM cannot match the range of the AIM-54C.

Their Phoenix missiles (if any remain) would be no good by now, the fuel in the missiles have a shelf life and the Phoenix while good at shooting Soviet bombers and largish cruise missiles is not an anti-fighter missile and is too large and clumsy to be used against a maneuverable target, especially considering that the Iranians would have the first generation of that missile line.

Underestimating Iranian capabilities would be a serious mistake. Most analysts assumed that keeping the F-14's flying for this long was just not possible and way beyong Iranian know-how. As one analyst commented on seeing a photo of an overhauled Iranian F-14 "But its on the ground" or another comment was "Anyone can give an aircraft a fresh coat of paint". Naturally, seeing these aircraft actually flying is always a shock for folks who underestimate Iranian resourcefulness.

Overestimating them isn't that smart either.

 

[Feanor]

Wow, hold on. Their F-14s are far from modernised (unless you consider slinging I-HAWK SAMs in place of Phoenix AAM) - the tactical use of IRIAF's F-14s during the Iran-Iraq war was as 'mini-AWACS' using their long-range AWG-9 radar.

The absolute misery of the Iraqi air force is the true consideration here.

Note the if in my post. I don't believe that those airplanes are anything more then display pieces at this point in time, that occasionally fly for parade purposes.

 

[chris30338]

Actually, according to our (American sources) and that journal I mentioned, American radar in the Gulf have tracked about 16 Iranian Tomcats sortieing in formation at the same time in November 2003. That's more than a handful and does not signify limited operational capability of Iranian Tomcats.

They only received about 284 Phoenix missiles from the original 1000 ordered before sanctions blocked further shipments. After using just over 200 during the war they solved the supply problem by reverse engineering the Phoenix. The AIM-54 Phoenix proved itself repeatedly during the war by downing numerous maneuvering fighter sized aircraft. They wouldn't have made the effort of reverse engineer the Phoenix if they didn't think it was a capable system. The Project Sky Hawk Program (mating the Hawk Surface-Air System with the F-14) was used as a stop-gap measure in 1985 (at the height of the Iran-Iraq conflict) in case the Phoenix Reverse Engineering project failed. The Hawk system is still used by the Iranians using a locally manufactured version of the Hawk called the SEJIL.

The Iranians have always proved themselves better and more resourceful than most estimates. After the war, in 1988, Iran flew 23 Tomcats in a military parade over Tehran which astounded most analysts since they assumed these jets would have been grounded by then. Now, they have shown themselves capable of completely stripping and rebuilding their Tomcats which most analysts still cannot believe. Lastly, the CIA concluded even during the Iran-Iraq war that the Iranians were manufacturing parts locally. That was after they inspected an F-14 that was induced to defect to Iraq during that war. That was about 20 years ago. One can assume that their capabilities in this area have increased significantly since then.

I don't think overestimating the Iranians is the problem here.

 

[ROCK45]

AIM-54 Phoenix

The early model AIM-54 Phoenix might have scored hits in the Iraqi-Iran war many years ago against basically fighters flying in the blind but not in modern warfare. A fighter pilot would have to make a mistake to be hit by one now the missile wasn't really design for that when it was new.

There will be no American invasion of Iran at best the nuclear reactor would be leveled.

Hezbollah like tactics that gave the Israelis recently so much grief in Lebanon.

Don't kid yourself if those rockets started hitting more targets and became more effective whole areas would be leveled. Those tactics work because the of scale the fighting Israel can change the scale in a heartbeat. The poor people of Lebanon who stay near anything Hezbollah controlled would and easily become targets if things got worse. The Hezbollah are never going to inflict more pain then Israel can give out don't think any different because your fooling yourself. All they do is hide behind the innocent who are actually from Lebanon and bring more death and destruction to the area. Until just the people from Lebanon and the Israeli's work this out with no outsiders it's doomed to fail. The Hezbollah are outsiders just like the Syrians or did the Israeli's take over one of there orange groves too. Israel isn't going away and the innocent people of Lebanon pay the price because of the Hezbollah and groups like them who could care less who dies. My entire adult life watching this on the news and for what useless, senseless killing, and mainly from people who don't even live or are from there! I not from region and realize it's much more complex then I'm describing it was just the way you mention the Hezbollah and how much trouble they gave Israel. There just another group imposing the will on people from Lebanon there's no difference then Israeli shells being fired at rocket launchers, there still being killed.

I don't think I'm underestimating Iranian air force capabilities I think there best weapon/aircraft are there Su-24s and I think it's there only asset. Face it if your don't buy new platforms in ten years what do you think your going to have?

 

[chris30338]

The early model AIM-54 Phoenix might have scored hits in the Iraqi-Iran war many years ago against basically fighters flying in the blind but not in modern warfare. A fighter pilot would have to make a mistake to be hit by one now the missile wasn't really design for that when it was new.

There will be no American invasion of Iran at best the nuclear reactor would be leveled.


Don't kid yourself if those rockets started hitting more targets and became more effective whole areas would be leveled. Those tactics work because the of scale the fighting Israel can change the scale in a heartbeat. The poor people of Lebanon who stay near anything Hezbollah controlled would and easily become targets if things got worse. The Hezbollah are never going to inflict more pain then Israel can give out don't think any different because your fooling yourself. All they do is hide behind the innocent who are actually from Lebanon and bring more death and destruction to the area. Until just the people from Lebanon and the Israeli's work this out with no outsiders it's doomed to fail. The Hezbollah are outsiders just like the Syrians or did the Israeli's take over one of there orange groves too. Israel isn't going away and the innocent people of Lebanon pay the price because of the Hezbollah and groups like them who could care less who dies. My entire adult life watching this on the news and for what useless, senseless killing, and mainly from people who don't even live or are from there! I not from region and realize it's much more complex then I'm describing it was just the way you mention the Hezbollah and how much trouble they gave Israel. There just another group imposing the will on people from Lebanon there's no difference then Israeli shells being fired at rocket launchers, there still being killed.

I don't think I'm underestimating Iranian air force capabilities I think there best weapon/aircraft are there Su-24s and I think it's there only asset. Face it if your don't buy new platforms in ten years what do you think your going to have?

I agree with the 2nd part. Yes, the Iranians need to modernize as the Tomcat and the Phoenix will remain potent for only so many years. The SU-24 Fencer is a good jet but in an AWACS environment, nap of the earth flying won't hide them anymore.

Actually, Middle Eastern studies was one of my hobbies. Hezbollah is a Shiite organization, supported by Iran since it is also a Shiite state. The Shiites in Lebanon are native to that country, just like the Sunnis and Druze. The Shiites used to have literally no power, and when Israel drove the PLO from Lebanon in 1979-80, the Shiites openly welcomed this "liberation" since the PLO and the Palestinians are majority Sunni. Things went sour when Israel decided to occupy southern Lebanon, where most of the Shiites lived, and that's where this conflict began...... in a nutshell.

I don't agree with many of Hezbollah's policies, especially since Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon. However, objectively speaking, they are an irregular army and no irregular force will meet a well equipped and organized adversary on the battlefield. That would be suicide and expecting them to do so would be foolish. Hezbollah, as an irregular military force, is considered one of the best trained and equipped forces around. The Israelis paid dearly for underestimating them. For example, they nearly lost a frigate when Hezbollah attacked it with an anti-ship missile. Israeli soldiers returning from the front could barely believe how well equipped these guys were. Some compared their level of equipment to Israel's own well equipped special forces.

Granted, Israel could have tried leveling all of southern Lebanon but that really wouldn't have helped them. The thousands of civilian casualties would have given Hezbollah a huge propaganda victory and caused them little physical harm since most of them were protected in hundreds, if not thousands of hidden concrete underground bunkers all across southern Lebanon. I read an interesting assessment of Hezbollah's tactics written by several US generals, as part of a study, and they were very impressed. Interesting since the US military is not a sympathetic audience for Hezbollah as an organization.

 

[Feanor]

Hezbollah, as an irregular military force, is considered one of the best trained and equipped forces around. The Israelis paid dearly for underestimating them. For example, they nearly lost a frigate when Hezbollah attacked it with an anti-ship missile. Israeli soldiers returning from the front could barely believe how well equipped these guys were. Some compared their level of equipment to Israel's own well equipped special forces.

Yes and no. They are certainly a well trained force that performed surprisingly well, however most of their weapons were outdated and performed very poorly. Now they did use good tactics to make up for the poor performance of the older ATGM's, but for the most part it was the presence of the new Kornets that accounted for the lions share of the damage. The issue of course is that Israel didn't fight a proper COIN war. They didn't bring in the massive numbers of light infantry, nor do they have the tactical strike CAS (they use fighter jets for it). The result of a regular conventional force facing a dedicated, well trained, and moderately well equiped insurgent force on their fome ground is usually predictable.