Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions

[sansei]

And by potential "Red Forces" what exactly do you mean in that context of "taking out existing missile inventories"?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[SGMilitary]

There are reports that the RSAF are waiting for more security information on

JSF-35.

Logically, the RSAF will be replacing her F-5 jets within the next 3-5 years time.

Will there be possibility that the RSAF will be procuring more F-15SG?

What are her plans to replace Fokker 50 transport aircraft?

Will the RSAF eventually procured at least 6 C17 airlifter from Boeing?

What are the plans to procure more SHORADS and anti-ballistic missile system?

Please comment.

Best Regards

 

[Red]

Both hit the target...
Both uses the same guidance technologies and network capabilities....

How many countries have SAMs that have ranges beyond 120km which is the max range of an unpowered JSOW?... Not all S300 versions exceed that range...

That's why the JSOW is called the Joint stand-off weapon...

Now, you`re being rather petty here. I was referring to a mixed bag of weapon inventories. And Im saying that modern air-forces would usually have a mixed of guided bombs, unguided bombs, powered bombs and cruise missiles. Many already do. Hence, the probablity is high that the RSAf would procure something along the lines of the slammer and jassm in the future. Especially, in the light that regional countries would eventually acquire the russian equivalent.

It depends on the availability and budget. Not all countries will sell cruise missile technologies. Most at least observe the MTCR.

And Singapore has the budget. Slammer is available now. Not too sure about the JASSM. MTCR is non-binding. And I dont remember Singapore signing it.

If regional, you mean SE Asia, then agreed. If regional you mean asia, then I'm pretty sure the confines of Singapore's sphere of influence do not extend past Pakistan in the west and the Pacific rim to its north.

And im sure you know that Im not talking simply about spheres of influence but the practicality of using a long range stand-off weapon versus an unpowered jsow when you are going as far as indonesia or beyond in SEA. A slammer or jsow is obviously better.

Cost is definitely an issue. So is politics. Batch purchasing is definitely a function of cost rather than a political consideration. The rationale is to spread out expenditure to reduce borrowings and interest cost. That was the fallacy of early procurement policies (there are a number of academic papers highlighting this in the Singapore context.)

I fail to understand why cost would be an issue in this instance of purchasing JASSMs and Slammers? I fail to see why Singapore will have trouble coughing up $70 million USD to buy the same number of Slam-er missiles(45 missiles) which South Korea recently purchased. Do you?

Batch purchasing is obviously a function of cost. Look at the equipment which the SAf has currently. It is a testament of what the SAF can afford. And politics is definitely an issue. Not just in Singapore but Malaysia as well. Hence, Singapore`s practice of buying many equipment in small batches. I would agree that infant Singapore in the past have had issues with defence procurement as Singapore was relatively poor then. However, this has changed dramatically. Look at the equipment which we have now.

Again. Why would cost be an issue if Singapore plans to buys slammers or Jassm?

Actually, the RSAF has never officially indicated the 80 figure. If one assumes that 7 squadrons of fighters will eventually be replaced, the NGF requirement is technically 140+. The 80+ (96) figure assumes that 3 F5 squadrons and the A4 squadron will be replaced. Once that is completed, it will be the turn of the F16s.

Yes. It was mentioned by the RSAF`s chief of air force in an interview with Janes. If you have read recent reports, RSAF`s preference is the F-35; failing which she will get more F-15SGs. It would be impossible for us get any F-35s prior to 2013-14 I think. Hence, it is very likely Singapore will buy 1 or 2 more batch of F-15SGs.

 

[Red]

Sorry for ribbing yer weasel. But i think you are using yardsticks more suitable for Malaysia perhaps?

 

[performance]

Singapore's defense budget is 5 billion, South Korea's is 20 billion. To put in perspective North Korea's budget is 5 billion.

Cost is an issue because Singapore's GDP is only 120 billion or so. It already has the highest per capita military spending in the world to make up for its lack of size.

 

[SGMilitary]

Dear Swerve,

Let me correct you.

Singapore defence budget in FY2007 exceeds more than US$7.0bn.

We have the means to spend on advance weapon systems that are readily

available.

As all of us are aware, the SAF approach has always been moderate in

implementing advanced weaponry in this region.

Best Regards

 

[harryriedl]

There are reports that the RSAF are waiting for more security information on

JSF-35.

Logically, the RSAF will be replacing her F-5 jets within the next 3-5 years time.

Will there be possibility that the RSAF will be procuring more F-15SG?

What are her plans to replace Fokker 50 transport aircraft?

Will the RSAF eventually procured at least 6 C17 airlifter from Boeing?

What are the plans to procure more SHORADS and anti-ballistic missile system?

Please comment.

Best Regards

I imagine that as Singapore is not a member of the F35 group it might have to wait longer than 5 years unless a Euro nation is willing to give up there slots

 

[swerve]

Dear Swerve,

Let me correct you.

Singapore defence budget in FY2007 exceeds more than US$7.0bn.

We have the means to spend on advance weapon systems that are readily

available.

As all of us are aware, the SAF approach has always been moderate in

implementing advanced weaponry in this region.

Best Regards

Correct me? What are you talking about?

 

[Magoo]

I imagine that as Singapore is not a member of the F35 group it might have to wait longer than 5 years unless a Euro nation is willing to give up there slots

Singapore (and Israel) has official observer status in the F-35 program. While it is not a fully paid up partner, it will be offered production slots ahead of any FMS customers. Israel may get in earlier if the USAD is willing to give up some of its slots.

At best, Singapore could probably take delivery of F-35s from about 2015.

Re JASSM - Australia is the only country to be granted access to the JASSM program, and it is likely to stay this way for the time being. Some European countries have asked and been denied. I also think it would be difficult politically for Singapore to justify getting a 400km+ range stand-off weapon in the JASSM's class, and for the US to supply it. SLAM-ER is a much more likely choice.

Cheers

Magoo

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[Red]

MTCR is a control mechanism for members who have the ability to export missile technology. The issue is not Singapore signing it but that the supplier ie US, has signed it.

Its not an issue for Australia (being a signatory) who already has that capability.

And the US has not been coy to export key weapons systems when it chooses to do so;exp, our E-2Cs. How many nations have E-2Cs in that age? If we are too see Bhramoses or Khs super-sonic missles popping out all over the place in SEA, an argument could already be made that the US ought to supply her allies with equivalent weapons. Lazy to read. Is`nt the MTCR restricted to 300 km range? If so, Slam-er or JASSMs 300 km or <300 km version would be more plausible and MTCR would not even come into the picture. Edit: Just read a bit about it. lol. It`s non binding and does not appear to have any punitive clauses. I doubt most nations would give a care about it if they are intent on making the sale and purchase saved for interest groups who are against the purchase of such systems and weapons.

Sure, Singapore can afford to buy SLAM-ERs and JASSMs but Singapore does not have an unlimited budget. If I can hit 3 targets with JSOWs instead of 1 with the SLAM-ER, I will opt for the 3 and so does the RSAF.

You have miscontrued what i have said. Im not suggesting we buy Slam-er over Jsow or JDAMs. Im saying we would most likely buy slam-er as a means to diversify our weapon inventory to suit differing circumstances best. Same with many other countries. Our JSOWs, for example, are great. But they are unpowered and lack the sophisticated flight mechanics of a true cruise missile. Both weapons will have thier uses.

ot necessarily. An aircraft esp the F-15 can fly the distance. A slammer only offers that hundred km or so extra range which doesn't make sense for the extra cost. Why pay 3
times the price of a JSOW for a SLAM-ER when a cheaper JSOW can do the job?

Here`s the deal. Why would you want the F-15 to fly further to, say, Java, when it can do the job much better from futher afield? We would most likely have to move an entire convoy of E-2cs/CAEWs, tankers and escorting aircrafts futher than necessary. The extra cost is really negligible especially if it puts the F-15Sg or F16s or any other aircrafts at a lesser risk.

Singapore doesn't have trouble coughing up US$70million. Its just a question of why spend that amount to get 70 munitions when I can get 210 with the JSOW or 2,800 with the JDAM? Of course if one has 2800 target then the cost wouldn't be $70m but $2.8billion for 2800 SLAM-ERs.

I`ve already answered this above. It is not about which weapon system is cheaper or which weapon Singapore ought to buy. It is about the different abilites which they provide and risk and threat management. Otherwise, we might as well opt for an all-jdam inventory since our planes and AEWs aircrafts can fly anywhere in SEA with tanker support.

Batch purchasing is still very much a function of Singapore purchasing strategy. Sure, Singapore can afford 3 squadrons of F-15s today but it won't buy all 3. That's because it would prefer to spread purchases out eg 1 squadron every 3-7 years. That way, expenses are evened out across timing and reduces budget pressures.

Yup.It would be better to spread costs. Seriously, it reflects Singapore`s government emphasis on prudence to the letter. It is also highly likely such procurement budgets have already been planned and kept separately only to be used when needed as the Singapore government is extremely sensitive with being seen as fickle minded after having made a decision.

As mentioned above and before. 1 SLAM-ER = 3 JSOWs = 40 JDAMs. Why buy 1 SLAM-ER to hit 1 target when I can buy 40 JDAMs and hit 40 targets.

Ditto. My response up there.

An example. The first 12 F-15SG were purchased in 2005. The next 12 were purchased in 2007. That's a 3 year spread. If I'm right, then there will be another squadron purchased sometime in 2010/11. And if the JSF comes into the frame at 2013-15, then the next purchase will be the JSF.


No problem. We share information and insights. That's a discussion forum. All I say is that with current JSF timelines, I see the RSAF only getting 2 squadrons of F-15s. If the JSF gets pushed back 2-4 years, then it will be 3. More than that, yes it could be 4 sqns of F-15s.

I would love to have more F-35s then F-15s but I think it is unlikely we will get any before 2015. Why would the other participating nations give way to Singapore after having invested so much money in the program? Israel is a different proposition altogether of course. If their US allies play it right, I`d reckon they could even get F-22s. So, it is likely they may get thier F-35s earlier.

A 3rd batch of F-15SGs is very likely and a 4th batch of F-15SGs is possible; especially if the number of sukhois in the region is to increase. My feelings is that the order for the next batch of F15Sgs will be made sooner than 2010; if not this year then possibly 2009. I know you are trying to extrapolate a trend but such orders do not necessarily have to be made at 3 year intervals. The important thing is to ensure that the supply of the F-15SGs is not stopped and create a capability gap issue.

Cheers

 

[SGMilitary]

Correct me? What are you talking about?

I'm sorry not directed to you.

Cheers!

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[weasel1962]

Re: Sniper for F16s as well...

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[SGMilitary]

Hey guys,

I can't actually recall which defense magazine but it was quoted that

Boeing is pitching to sell additional 24 F-15SG to RSAF including 6 C17

Globemaaster air lifter at a discounted price.

Anyone knows about this?Any advised or link to refer?

In my opinion, it will be most likely that the deal above will materialise looking

at the advantage of stronger Singapore dollar.

Any comments guys?

Cheers!

Regards,
SG Military

 

[cm07]

I do not see a need for RSAF to own C-17s. Larger LPDs will do frankly. Throw A400m into the mix will do.

As for more F-15s, I doubt there will be another 24, with 12 more likely. Buying that many planes will restrict funding for other projects and can cut into the purchase of JSF.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[swerve]

I do not see a need for RSAF to own C-17s. Larger LPDs will do frankly. Throw A400m into the mix will do.

As for more F-15s, I doubt there will be another 24, with 12 more likely. Buying that many planes will restrict funding for other projects and can cut into the purchase of JSF.

Larger LPDs? The four Singapore has are new, & provide a huge amphibious capacity for such a small country. Proportionately more than any other country in the world, I think.

 

[SGMilitary]

Sorry,NG stands for?

Will RSAF be acquiring Global HAWKS?

Unmanned G550?very interesting indeed.

The four LPDs are considered large for a small country like Singapore.

However, it will be better if RSN procure additional two Landing Helicopter

Decks to enhance the four that we have.

Will that be a possibility as normally 1 squadron comprise of 6 vessels.