New fighters for Greece.

[dk706]

Blackship do you know anything about what happened in larissa?? I haven't heard anything about it and I would love to.
Zeven the gripen does not stand a chance in the Greek competition. As you said the gripen due to its low cost and low maintenance cost is an ideal aircraft for small countries with small defense budgets and is certainly great for countries like Sweden and Switcherland that do not have any real threats to their integrity basically anything else would be an overkill..... The thing though is that nothing is an overkill for Greece. Talking about Greece as a small country and assuming that its defense needs can be covered with something that is not much of an improvement to what we already have is pure ignorance.

Just so you know greece scores some of the highest flying hours per pilot and has one of the highest per capita defense budgets in the world. If you had any clue about what goes on above the aegean every single day you would realize that greece and turkey have two of the most combat ready airforces in the world and they both require the best aircraft they can get since they are essentially facing each other and not some third work country airforce like the US and Nato in general have been facing in resent combat.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

BLACK SHIP do you think that has anything to do with how it might how done testing against a Block-52? I'm sure Greece put the Rafale through tests I know I would have. My two cent for Greece to spend the big money on a Rafale it would have to beat the Viper like 7-3 in air to air to take it on. I think the Mirage 2000-Ds are still marking targets for the Rafale in 2008, think about that a little Block-40 right? Even know the Rafale has a good range and payload, AG would still be the Greece's Vipers main role so it's air to air where the Rafale needed to stand out and shine. Greece has a lot invested in there Viper fleet I can't see them not using them where there suited so well.

The main concern is to have an air superiority aircraft.There are enough vipers around for the Air to Ground missions .The 52+ in service and in order are suitable for the requirements and with the conformal tanks are the long reach of the HAF.The Rafale simply ,while a very good weapons platform, has nothing exceptional to offer in the air to air performance but the EF does.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

Yes you´re right. my fault.
but 11 mill, is still small its about the same size as sweden. and greece and sweden have good relations and greece have purchased alot of military equipment and platforms from sweden before IREYE for exampel.

The fighter choice has nothing to do with the good will between Sweden and Greece.Orders of that magnitude are also political and should viewed as such.If you take into consideration the EF backing and the impressive performance of the aircraft itself is clear what choice will be made.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

dk706 in Larisa simply they didn't make an impression to our Vipers .Also 3 out of 5 had mechanical problems .As I said good performer but not exceptional.

 

[dk706]

In the official Eurofighter site a comparison of the performance of modern western aircraft is given measured against the Su-27 and the Eurofighter in the Air to Air role comes second only to the f-22. I have seen such comparisons elsewhere and they all seem to put Eurofighter just after F-22. This will probably be the biggest advantage of the aircraft in the greek competition.

Under any sircumstances i think the greek airforce sould test all the compiting aircraft against the F-16 brock52+ in realistic combat missions.

 

[zeven]

Blackship do you know anything about what happened in larissa?? I haven't heard anything about it and I would love to.
Zeven the gripen does not stand a chance in the Greek competition. As you said the gripen due to its low cost and low maintenance cost is an ideal aircraft for small countries with small defense budgets and is certainly great for countries like Sweden and Switcherland that do not have any real threats to their integrity basically anything else would be an overkill..... The thing though is that nothing is an overkill for Greece. Talking about Greece as a small country and assuming that its defense needs can be covered with something that is not much of an improvement to what we already have is pure ignorance.

Just so you know greece scores some of the highest flying hours per pilot and has one of the highest per capita defense budgets in the world. If you had any clue about what goes on above the aegean every single day you would realize that greece and turkey have two of the most combat ready airforces in the world and they both require the best aircraft they can get since they are essentially facing each other and not some third work country airforce like the US and Nato in general have been facing in resent combat.

Yes i Know.
i knew, greece have like 4.5 per cent spent on their military budget. and are 6th or 5th biggest in europe after turkey.
but why waste the money. if you can use them on smarter way.
And to say, gripen NG is inferior to rafale, EF and jsf, no i don´t agree. all of them havet their things.
so to say that gripen NG couldnt defend Greece but rafale could is BS.

First you guys (genarlizing) says gripen has to small legs and payload. and now when thats fixed, you found something els to misscredit the platform for.

gripen NG is almost an entirely new aircraft. all the avionics (the brain) and EW suits are upgraded,
technology speaking. the advantage, jsf had, will be rather limited when Gripen NG gets operational. ok they still has stealth, but inferior datalink. and so on.
and if you look at rafale and EF, i really cant find something that is so superior to gripen NG.
but i would go for EF anyway and i think EF is the best option for greece, but gripen NG need the credit it deservs.

 

[sierrahotel]

At the moment all HAF F-16 Sqns are 100% multirole.All sqns get full air to air and air to ground training and take on AD readiness duties.The advantage is clearne single sqn can provide a COMAO package and at the same time perform AA warfare,giving the Ops Director plenty of choices.Only the 2 M-2000 sqns have clear AD role with 331 sqn to have secondary antiship role.

 

[zeven]

In the official Eurofighter site a comparison of the performance of modern western aircraft is given measured against the Su-27 and the Eurofighter in the Air to Air role comes second only to the f-22. I have seen such comparisons elsewhere and they all seem to put Eurofighter just after F-22. This will probably be the biggest advantage of the aircraft in the greek competition.

Under any sircumstances i think the greek airforce sould test all the compiting aircraft against the F-16 brock52+ in realistic combat missions.

Ehm.
the official EF website.
give us, an independent compareson, and how the comparesion was made.

i trust the EF website as much as the gripens or jsfs for that sake. in other words NOT MUCH. thay are all commersial businesses, you cant think for one second they would talk average about themselves?

i dont think EF is so superior to others. only reason they got so much attention is because of the countries operates it. all huge military aviation countries.

i would love to read about all this different exercices, you talking about.

ps.
don´t get me wrong here, i do agree with you, that EF is the best choice availeble for the greece airforce..

 

[dk706]

In general it seams that the Eurofighter is a great aircraft but what i personally think it lacks is a mature and sophisticated AESA radar. An active version of the captor radar was on the papers and i hope that if Greece goes for the Eurofighter it will also prerequisite the AESA captor instead of the normal.

Blackship do you know of any actual results in the air to air training in larissa? Just a reminder here that the Eurofighter won every single battle in the simulations for the equivalent program for the Singaporean airforce. Actually in one scenario a single Eurofighter scored 3 simulated kills against Singaporean airforce F-16s. Despite of that Singapore went for the f-15 some suggesting due to its better air to ground performance.

 

[dk706]

Zeven dont get me wrong either Gripen NG is a great all around performer and very cost effective and i never discredit it. what i was suggesting was that it is wrong to degrade the needs of the greek airforce because greece is only 11million... I think in the end we both agree that the EF is the best choise for greece and will actually be the final choice due to both operational and political reasons.

 

[zeven]

In general it seams that the Eurofighter is a great aircraft but what i personally think it lacks is a mature and sophisticated AESA radar. An active version of the captor radar was on the papers and i hope that if Greece goes for the Eurofighter it will also prerequisite the AESA captor instead of the normal.

Blackship do you know of any actual results in the air to air training in larissa? Just a reminder here that the Eurofighter won every single battle in the simulations for the equivalent program for the Singaporean airforce. Actually in one scenario a single Eurofighter scored 3 simulated kills against Singaporean airforce F-16s. Despite of that Singapore went for the f-15 some suggesting due to its better air to ground performance.

Maybe not now, but when tranch 3 comes out. around the time Greece will make the purchase, it will be a mature plattform.
and the advantage of JSF, technology wise, will be none existing.
im still suprised that lockheed martin with a budget of over 300 bill usd. can´t achive something better.

 

[zeven]

Zeven dont get me wrong either Gripen NG is a great all around performer and very cost effective and i never discredit it. what i was suggesting was that it is wrong to degrade the needs of the greek airforce because greece is only 11million... I think in the end we both agree that the EF is the best choise for greece and will actually be the final choice due to both operational and political reasons.

Yes we do.

im looking forward to see, jsf vs eurofighter in upcomming exercices. its gonna be like christmas for me

 

[dk706]

Zeven I honestly hope that what you are saying will be true.... after all we all know that greece is bound to buy the f-35 at some point... I would guess right after 2014 when it becomes available to us. If f-35 proves to be inferior to the EF we wont need to buy f-35 at the end...this way we will break the greek tradition of investing in two aircraft designs at the same time...

 

[zeven]

Zeven I honestly hope that what you are saying will be true.... after all we all know that greece is bound to buy the f-35 at some point... I would guess right after 2014 when it becomes available to us. If f-35 proves to be inferior to the EF we wont need to buy f-35 at the end...this way we will break the greek tradition of investing in two aircraft designs at the same time...

Very true, and i do believe thats the way it will turn out.
because nothing yet indicates that F-35 will be superior.
it that was the case, no one would never even concider EF in the first place, because of the twin engine aint enough by itself to buy EF.

 

[Grand Danois]

and the advantage of JSF, technology wise, will be none existing.
im still suprised that lockheed martin with a budget of over 300 bill usd. can´t achive something better.

because nothing yet indicates that F-35 will be superior.

Look to the exercise kill ratios of the F-22A vs "3th/4th" gens to get an idea.

But I suggest you take it to the Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards an European solution?, if you want more on that topic. The Greek aren't going to buy F-35A's this time around.

 

[zeven]

Look to the exercise kill ratios of the F-22A vs "3th/4th" gens to get an idea.

But I suggest you take it to the Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards an European solution?, if you want more on that topic. The Greek aren't going to buy F-35A's this time around.

We didnt talked about F-22

No Greece will not. but if it turns out, EF, can do the job better than F35 why use 2 plattforms? thats what we´re talking about.
and turkey will purchase F-35, so its hard to leave F-35 out of this debate.

 

[Sintra]

Look to the exercise kill ratios of the F-22A vs "3th/4th" gens to get an idea.

Grand Danois

If we go by the exercise kill ratios against Vipers, Hornets, Eagles, Tornados, etc, then the Eurofighter Typhoon his directly competitive with the F-22 Raptor (i´m not talking about "chance" encounters with F-15E´s over GBritain). And before someone starts throwing rocks tomato ) i´m not saying that these two aircrafts are equivalent, with the kind of money that was spent on the ATF program, Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon would have made the "Blunder of Century" if the Raptor wasn´t superlative (wich it his).
I´m talking about "Sky Lance 2007", "Typhoon Meet", "Wycombe Warrior 2007 1/2/3", "Lone Eider", the exercises between the Italian Air Force 37 Stormo and the 4/36 Stormos, or their Spanish equivalents.
This list his a small selection of what hapened in 2007, and by every account it has been a one sided "baby seal clubing".
Even the 48th USAF fighter jocks will (grudgingly) acknolage that sometimes a "Eagle" might get on the wrong end of a (simulated) "slammer" (sometimes on a massive scale, see Sky Lance kill ratios).
Bottom line, without knowing the ROE´s of the exercises it´s impossible to measure ATA performance, that his true for the Raptor, the Typhoon, or any other fighter.
On that most discussed internet topic the "Dave versus Phoon", my own "prediction" his... chill out, have a beer and wait to 2018 untill they are flying actually with RAF and AMI colours.
I would just love to have access to the reports of the 17(R) Sqn RAF, more specifically to the China Lake detachment.

Cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Zeven & Sintra,

The reason I tried to direct the F-35 discussion towards the Norway thread, was because this is the thread where the sniping at the F-35 takes place. No reason to make every fighter procurement thread a pro/con F-35 discussion.

People generally underestimate how potent an A2A fighter the F-35 is. Just because it doesn't go Mach 2+, top speed is overestimated IMV. The F-35 doesn't need to do the energy fight, though certainly capable of it. It fits with previous paradigms as well as those of the future that can be discerned (no, LM didn't pay me to write this, it is how I perceive things ).

I'm aware of DACT rules; the Raptor has demonstrated what matters to get lopsided: sensors, networking, STEALTH and speed (and persistence). It's the combo. The F-35 is excellent at the two first and has reasonable balance of the two latter.

The US describes the F-35A this way in the FY08 budget item justification:

The F-35 is the next generation strike fighter which will increase aero performance, stealth signature and countermeasures. Its advanced avionics, data links and adverse weather precision targeting will incorporate the latest technology available. The F-35 has increased range with internal fuel and includes superior weaponry over existing aircraft. The highly supportable, affordable, state-of-the-art aircraft commands and maintains global air superiority.

http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-080204-081.pdf

It's no slouch in A2A and stealth is probably a bigger asset than top speed. How about displacing into an advantagous position without your enemy noticing you? Or being able to do a more fuel efficient intercept, because you need to worry less about being spotted? This translate to better use of the speed and fuel that is available.

But of course the F-35 should be discussed in the Greek context. However, they're not up for this round, but future purchases should be taken into account when discussing the current situation and more immediate acquisitions.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Speed does not make a difference when you found out that you are locked on, by an enemy plane which you do not see both with your own 2 eyes or on the Radar, I am pretty sure you will not have enough speed to out run the missile which came from a invisible plane! Another note the stupid thing is still a concept, U.S is not going to release all the facts about it to everyone!

I found this qoute on another blog website, they where discussing the same thing!

Sadly for the UK, Spain, Germany, Italy, Saudi Arabia and whoever else has made the disastrous mistake to purchase this relic of a by-gone era, the Typhoon will soon be almost, but not quite, as irrelevant as the so-called Super Hornet. The F-35 will exceed the Typhoon at all levels, including maneuverability. Despite the latter's canards, I am astounded by how very little people on this board understand the very peculiar yet very unbeatable aerodynamic configuration common to both the F-22 and F-35. The enormous control surfaces, set far behind the axis of gravity in both as well as far behind the engine, provide a degree of maneuverability unmatched by any comers. Again, the USAF is being coy about the F-35 in this regard, but this aircraft will not be beaten by any aircraft now flying except for the F-22. Were the F-35 to be fitted with thrust-vectoring, however, it would be more maneuverable yet than the F-22.

My guess as to what Greece is going to buy is one of the 3 Euro delta's.

 

[ASFC]

I found this qoute on another blog website, they where discussing the same thing!

Have you got a link, as I'm quite interested in reading the rest of that.

My guess as to what Greece is going to buy is one of the 3 Euro delta's.

I know it is 0430 in the UK for me at the moment, but i'm sure there are only 2 Euro Delta designs available for purchase.