New fighters for Greece.

macman

New Member
Think you're overestimating the F-35 here...

If Greece doesn't go for the F-35 themselves to keep strict parity, then they can look to seriously upgrade their radar capabilities with the likes of Nebo 3D UHF AESA radars or similar, as well as larger radar such as Green Pine, etc., & upgrade their air-defence systems further..

Add some fast modern fighters with solid datalinking & a good ECM suite (ie. a squadron or two of Eurofighters), as well as further upgrades or their regular fleet, good mix of cruise missiles...


Won't have the offensive punch of the Turks, but they will be enough to cause serious damage as well as protecting their own airspace, while being a lot cheaper than the F-35's.

If they feel the need later down the track when the money situation improves, the Russian/Indian FGFA variation will undoubtedly be for sale.


The F-35 will probably not be in service in Turkey until 2017 or later (ie. all planes delivered & in operation) which give the Greeks plenty of time to look at options.
As money is pretty tight for the Greeks at the moment, imagine they will be taking their time..
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Think you're overestimating the F-35 here...

If Greece doesn't go for the F-35 themselves to keep strict parity, then they can look to seriously upgrade their radar capabilities with the likes of Nebo 3D UHF AESA radars or similar, as well as larger radar such as Green Pine, etc., & upgrade their air-defence systems further..

Add some fast modern fighters with solid datalinking & a good ECM suite (ie. a squadron or two of Eurofighters), as well as further upgrades or their regular fleet, good mix of cruise missiles...


Won't have the offensive punch of the Turks, but they will be enough to cause serious damage as well as protecting their own airspace, while being a lot cheaper than the F-35's.

If they feel the need later down the track when the money situation improves, the Russian/Indian FGFA variation will undoubtedly be for sale.


The F-35 will probably not be in service in Turkey until 2017 or later (ie. all planes delivered & in operation) which give the Greeks plenty of time to look at options.
As money is pretty tight for the Greeks at the moment, imagine they will be taking their time..
The Norwegian evaluation committe looked at several scenarios; the F-35 passed all with flying colors, a 4.5 gen jet (Gripen NG) did not. The gap between the two was surprisingly large according to the evaluation committee. Details are lacking however some information has leaked, in particular: F-35 will be capable of operating in the vicinity of double-digit SAMs relying on passive stealth only; F-35 will be capable of engaging and winning a2a fights with a future (as of today imaginary) 5. gen PAK FA relying on passive stealth only.

I am sorry but I don't see any technologies in the immediate future that will be able to handle the F-35 adequately. Good for Norway and Turkey, not good for countries facing an opponent with the system.

Some radars may be able to detect the F-35 at a distance but that's not good enough; you also need to track it, and be able to fire a missile that can hit it. That's the tricky part.

In addition to VLO, the F-35 also has other advantages, in particular sensors that will be much more advanced and with a longer range than anything else out there; 360 degrees EO coverage (the EO DAS system), world class EWS, etc. The F-35 will be able to detect potential threats and decide to engage or evade long before the potential threat is capable of engaging the F-35.

Of course it is neither invisible nor invincible. However I do assume that Turkey will put the F-35 into a complete system, and develop tactics that use the advantages of the F-35 to the fullest. If they do, it will be a very difficult system to beat. Unless you got something at a similar level. UCAVs would certainly help, however they are not there yet.

You also misjudge the costs involved; the F-35 will be cheaper than any 4.5 gen jet, including the SH and Gripen NG. The only issue with the F-35 today is that of availability...:)

V
 

wimpymouse

Banned Member
Are you suggesting that the US is considering Turkey and Greece to be enemies of the US? Or did I mis-interpret?

Although the US may consider the relationship with Turkey a "special" one, both Greece and Turkey are after all NATO members and therefore considered allies of the US. The US therefore does not want military conflict between Greece and Turkey.

As you wrote above, the US is probably going to carefully consider moves that can destabilize the region. My point is that Turkey getting 100 F-35 would probably be destabilizing, given the leap in offensive and (and defencive) capabilities this would provide. The Greek S-300 would no longer pose a serious threat to the Turkish air force, neither would the Greek AF pose a threat to the Turkish AF, no matter what planes Greece would choose to buy (other than F-35).

That's how big the gap in technology is between F-35 and all 4.5 gen planes, including SH and Typhoon.

Of course there could be alternatives for Greece -- perhaps they can strengthen other parts of their military (e.g., UCAVs, long-range missiles, more subs) to make sure that they will have a credible deterrent. However missile bases would of course be a relatively easy target for Turkish F-35s. And buying a lot of equipment in an effort to "balance" the loss of air superiority would become expensive.

My guess is that the US will consider the military balance in the region and either let Greece buy F-35, or give them an advantage in another way, to compensate for the Turkish superiority in the air that we will witness once the Turkish F-35s becomes operational. At least that's what I think the US ought to do.



V
No you didn't misinterpret me, I wrote that at a very late hour and failed to give a complete thought on the matter. The way the US has handled the Greco-Turkish issue over the years resembles (naturally to a much lesser extent) with the old technique of "divide and conquer", or rather, and in your case, "divide et impera".

In the book "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" William Blum explains, in chapters 3 and 35, very well documented how the US dealt with Greece in a similar manor. The word "ally" is the last thing that comes to your mind.

http://www.killinghope.org/

I know, lovely site, not a penny spared on commercial apearance. :D
But if I was to recomend one single book to people with interests as such you guys in this forum have, it would be that. Specially the chapter 5, Korea. It will make you realize that the winner does indeed write the history, still today.


The US might not want a military conflict between them, but they sure keep the tention up, and they surely will continue to sell them arms (even F-35, but maybe not too soon or as well equiped [to judge from the past]). :dollarrain:




The Norwegian evaluation committe looked at several scenarios; the F-35 passed all with flying colors, a 4.5 gen jet (Gripen NG) did not. The gap between the two was surprisingly large according to the evaluation committee. Details are lacking however some information has leaked, in particular: F-35 will be capable of operating in the vicinity of double-digit SAMs relying on passive stealth only; F-35 will be capable of engaging and winning a2a fights with a future (as of today imaginary) 5. gen PAK FA relying on passive stealth only.

I am sorry but I don't see any technologies in the immediate future that will be able to handle the F-35 adequately. Good for Norway and Turkey, not good for countries facing an opponent with the system.

Some radars may be able to detect the F-35 at a distance but that's not good enough; you also need to track it, and be able to fire a missile that can hit it. That's the tricky part.

In addition to VLO, the F-35 also has other advantages, in particular sensors that will be much more advanced and with a longer range than anything else out there; 360 degrees EO coverage (the EO DAS system), world class EWS, etc. The F-35 will be able to detect potential threats and decide to engage or evade long before the potential threat is capable of engaging the F-35.

Of course it is neither invisible nor invincible. However I do assume that Turkey will put the F-35 into a complete system, and develop tactics that use the advantages of the F-35 to the fullest. If they do, it will be a very difficult system to beat. Unless you got something at a similar level. UCAVs would certainly help, however they are not there yet.

You also misjudge the costs involved; the F-35 will be cheaper than any 4.5 gen jet, including the SH and Gripen NG. The only issue with the F-35 today is that of availability...:)

V
Marketing is a phenomena.
 

wimpymouse

Banned Member
First of all i have to admit that i am a pro rafale supporter for HAF, i think that's obvious :) My second choice would be the Eurofighter.

The majority of air "combats" over the Aegean end in a dogfight, no matter what the fighter pilots want (and i am sure all of them would like to end the "knife fight" situation using the BVR capabilities they have).

This happens because in the present situation when a Turkish aircraft, or...formation to be more exact, enters the Greek airspace and the Greek readiness squads or CAP's have to react the distances aren't so long, take a look in a map of Greece and the bases where the readiness squads are and where the RADARs are located and you'll see that the time to use your BVR capabilities isn't that big and eventually it ends up in a dogfight. Although a dogfight always depends on the intentions of the intruder. The defender just do what he has to do, right? :)

Just a statistic, in 2007 there were 207 dogfights over the Aegean and in 2008 there were 240, i think they are enough for two "allied" and "friendly" countries.


http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=16.01.2009,id=90839564 unfortunately the link is in Greek.

The above though doesn't mean that i neglect the BVR capabilities of an aircraft.

About the French offer to construct the aircrafts in Greece, i would like to remind that in 2015 there would be another tender for new fighters (if i remember right 80 aircrafts) so if the rafale is chosen now the final number to be constructed will be 110 or 120, enough i think for a production line.

The bulk of HAF air to air combat force is comprised from IRIS-T as well.

To integrate a missile into an aircraft which is not integrated, means...more money right and more...risk.Right? I haven't read somewhere that Eurofighter can be armed with Exocet missiles.



I use google translations (it ends up semi understandable).

The generals don't see any crisis

Giorgos TSAKIRI


Uneasy and puzzled monitor what is done or not done, but allowed to leak to the media that were in the Aegean recently officials and officers of the Ministry of National Defense.

For one month, has created a climate of crisis in the Aegean, crisis can become a new Imia minute by minute, with the Greek Armed Forces in increased alertness and other side generals determined to «conquer» Agathonisi in the context of , for decades, but their claims to the region.

Crisis «giok» for the military. «It may be something else that still have not identified, but there is no crisis» Our sources say the Ministry of Defense and justifying: «military crisis means diversifying data yesterday, the day before yesterday, a week ago, but last year and before. It misled military movements, movements of forces, support units, except the usual regular exercises and especially the top tier and, finally, data obtained at least not today ».

At any time

According to the same sources, the data are analyzed and in no way lead to an imminent crisis, as always accept that nothing will change, and given that a military crisis or communicated in words and acts clearly not prepared to give the adversary the opportunity to prepare. Crisis in the Aegean officers can happen at any time. There are, however, neither the precursor of yperptiseis or violations in the air and sea. This course, as they said, does not mean that the violations, breaches and violations yperptiseis territorial waters should be left without response, but this is totally different from what military means crisis or tension.

Commenting on the climate created in recent times, the generals insisted that crisis is only verbal and especially in the losses to the Greek media, including those in Turkey this time have not dealt with either a line at what is happening in the Aegean. The uniformed acknowledging that the information is not a fiction of journalists, but left some information to leak, argued that:

Offenses, and violations were yperptiseis in 1974 after almost daily. The numerical difference infringements Turkish fighter in the Greek FIR last year and before that was only 180 and only one (1) violations of Greek airspace. In 2007 we had 868 violations against 688 in 2008 and recorded 1,289 violations of Greek airspace in 2007 versus 1,288 in 2008. Also in December of 2008 were 6 fewer violations than the previous year. Thus the volatile activity of the Turkish Air Force does not show great diversity. Particularly for yperptiseis: according to the same figures in 2007 were recorded over 48 yperptiseis Greek islands, while in 2008 almost half, just 25. Reduction in 2008 and had reinforced the Turkish aircraft were involved in breaches and violations. According to the data, 2007 were 464 armed formations to enter the Greek area of responsibility, and in 2008 fell to 339 formations.

What makes the so-called quality differentiation, the expression used by the National Defense Minister Vangelis Meimarakis statements during the day before yesterday at the Greek-Turkish, is that the Turkish fighters, according to the data, have hardened their regular, which means that the interceptions from the Greek leave but prefer not to engage in a virtual dog. In 2007 during the 207 interceptions were made jams, and the following year was 240. The second difference is the number of aircraft made by violations and abuses. In 2007 the Turkish aviation placed in the Aegean in the Greek airspace 2,780 fighters, and last year the number increased to 3,041 aircraft. Finally, there is diversification in practice in recent days regarding the yperptiseis more than Agathonisi and Farmakonisi. The Turkish aviation perform movements bombing on the island by bombing aircraft accompanied by support aircraft, as they would if they were real.

About maritime activity in Turkey in the Aegean, Navy sources said that there is tension. The exercises are scheduled in Turkey without something different that would reflect. Serious violations of rules are not by Turkish warships and in no case so far we have registered challenges by Turkey. Even the presence of the Turkish frigate Sounion not be described as escalating tension, but not be passed unnoticed. It is a challenging sailing a war and thus should be considered and evaluated along with all other data.

The difference

What makes the difference, according to officials of the Ministry of Defense, and is a serious distinction from last year and before that is the fact that the latest search and rescue was in the area between Agathonisi and Farmakonisiou was Turkish intervention radar operator reported to the International frequency that they are Turkish airspace and the Greek helicopter should be removed otherwise it will halt.

In response to question why impressions created tension in the Aegean from the information allowed to leak, the officials refrained from replying. Some have said only that «should synaxiologithei and the time when the crisis was the first pages of newspapers and that in Turkey there were no reports of internal events and the two countries that formally end the crisis diapsefstike several days after the alleged launch ».

However officers are concerned about what is happening in the Aegean. Not about whether there is a crisis, but what will be the day of the claims. *


ELEFTHEROTYPIA - 16/01/2009

What does "yperptisis", "diapsefstike" and "synaxiologithei" mean?

Have I understood it correctly that is says that, while Greek papers reported the crisis the Turkish papers did no such thing? And if, why wouldn't papers that are all about selling copies not report it?


What I wonder is if all those naval and airial space violations are perfectly planned by the Turkish generals, or are they cowboy acts of individual pilots and commanders? Because it seems to me that these acts surely must be planned, and that is out of an expansionistic doctrine that's seemingly begging for confrontation, confiding in Turkeys quite numerical overhand in materials and men. Your thoughts?
 

eliaslar

New Member
yperptisis = fly over terrain (in this case over Greek islands which obviously are Greek terrain)
diapsefstike = denied
synaxiologithei = be evaluated with more evidences

About what this article says. Would you let your media write that you provoke someone, or fly over his terrain, or dogfight with his planes? From what i know the Turkish papers wrote only some incidents when things turned really ugly and there were some lives lost.

This phrase you wrote is maybe the best way to depict part of the situation.

The US might not want a military conflict between them, but they sure keep the tention up, and they surely will continue to sell them arms (even F-35, but maybe not too soon or as well equiped [to judge from the past]).
To tell you the truth, i don't think it's the right thread to discuss the situation between Turkey and Greece :)
 

ROCK45

New Member
Greece Air Force question

I'm not sure if I got this right but I'll throw it out there. I remember reading some place that Greece's older Mirage 2000s are anti-ship missiles capable but not the newer Mirage 2000-5mk2? So both types are needed I wanted to know is there any truth to that?

Thanks
 

Zeus II

New Member
I'm not sure if I got this right but I'll throw it out there. I remember reading some place that Greece's older Mirage 2000s are anti-ship missiles capable but not the newer Mirage 2000-5mk2? So both types are needed I wanted to know is there any truth to that?

Thanks
You are right. It is pretty weird actually.

Not modernised M2Ks (EGM/BGM) are Exocet capable, while both new and modernised M2000-5s are not. The French asked for way too much money in order to certify the missile for use with the new M200-5s.

Pure blackmail if you ask me.

On the other hand, M2000-5s are destined to carry the new SCALP-EG cruise missile (also still not certified), but legacy M2Ks are not, nor will be, again-for financial reasons, the French just ask for too much.

Regards.
 

wimpymouse

Banned Member
yperptisis = fly over terrain (in this case over Greek islands which obviously are Greek terrain)
diapsefstike = denied
synaxiologithei = be evaluated with more evidences

About what this article says. Would you let your media write that you provoke someone, or fly over his terrain, or dogfight with his planes? From what i know the Turkish papers wrote only some incidents when things turned really ugly and there were some lives lost.

This phrase you wrote is maybe the best way to depict part of the situation.



To tell you the truth, i don't think it's the right thread to discuss the situation between Turkey and Greece :)
Right, thanks for the explanations and all, and about Swedish media, it's not controlled in by the government...
 
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