Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Boys, realistically the only way the F-88 is going to be replaced is if AICW or something similar eventuates. Without something game changing theres no point. Unless theres a change in caliber or individual firepower (i.e. intergrated auto 40mm), theres no way they'll replace the F-88. AFAIK its pretty rare that a major army would re-equip with another rifle which is no different in terms of caliber, comperable cyclical rate or fire type. Look at the past, muzzle load to single shot breach load, breach load to mag fed bolt action, bolt action to semi auto, semi auto to assault rifle, they're not going to re-equip with another assault rifle because of some marginal benifits, they're just going to improve the one we have.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I can't see CMDO or SASR using anything that wouldn't work first time every time.

ah, but not everyone in SOCS uses Steyrs - they have freedom of choice on their pointy kit. You'd be surprised at what else some of the singles use.....

 

[gf0012-aust]

On re-training what intensive training would be required for a new rifle, 2 days a week? Does anyone know the conversion time in the 4rar from the Steyr to the M-4?.

I've seen the training data comparing individual performance between conventional (M4 etc...) and bullpup (Steyr).

the time for green users to get meaningful groupings is far shorter for Steyrs compared to conventional - and that has been a significant issue in the past.

the conversion data for 4RAR Cdo's to migrate from bullies to M4's is not a fair comparison as these blokes are not green and are already versed up on proper technique etc....

more importantly - a group of virgins first timing on Steyrs will deliver tighter and more meaningful groups than another group of virgins first timing on M4's. the difference and rate of time to achieve that visible capability is an eyebrow lifter. Our experience in cost and effectiveness differences for using bullies would favour bullies. we allow others to use M4's or other gucci kit due to their roles.

there are training, logistical and tactical reasons as to why we do this.

Ando, AD is "away" at present IIRC.

 

[lobbie111]

gf, can you tell me the typical combat mix of arms in a section, ie barrel lengths etc. Is there a 'Designated Marksman' type role in Australian Infantry with the Steyr Heavy Barrel with Bipod?

 

[Simon9]

Yeah, webbing and pack with water, food, ammo, radio batts etc used to weigh in at a fraction over 30kg's, then add weapon. This was the days before body armour toohwell

And the NVG, PRR, IR cyalumes or strobes, sig illumes... bit by bit it really starts to add up, with each passing year there's more crap to carry and the infantry get loaded down more and more.

Just compare the difference in pack size between WWI, WWII, Vietnam, and today.

 

[Chino]

the time for green users to get meaningful groupings is far shorter for Steyrs compared to conventional - and that has been a significant issue in the past.

Is the said conventional system in the comparison similarly scoped like the Steyr?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Is the said conventional system in the comparison similarly scoped like the Steyr?

IIRC at the time it was type for type as in furniture fitout etc....

ease of training, reaching proficiency for specific groupings etc.....

I remember it specifically as I was involved with a private industry recoil management solution and had attended an industry briefing on SME experiences dealing with the Steyr development program.

 

[gf0012-aust]

gf, can you tell me the typical combat mix of arms in a section, ie barrel lengths etc. Is there a 'Designated Marksman' type role in Australian Infantry with the Steyr Heavy Barrel with Bipod?

dunno, you'd have to ask one of the others about veggies. I've been involved mainly with black, blue, white and weapons development projects. I have NFI about green unit level issues.

 

[PrOeLiTeZ]

On re-training what intensive training would be required for a new rifle, 2 days a week? Does anyone know the conversion time in the 4rar from the Steyr to the M-4?
Obviously I am not talking on developing expertise merely operation use.

Its not really the conversion time and logistics issue. Its moreso, how soldiers were so naturaly loading magazines differently to conventional rifles that they get used to it without thinking.

Going conventional layout they load differently, shooting performance is different, holding rifle, holding onto target, your two arms are spread out more, prone or prouch shooting is different.

You really dont vehicle mount your AUG onto it. That would be the SAW, LSW, LMG requires mounting options on vehicles. Changes would be grenade launchers attaching differently. Training differs at start, must be restructured.

More nations are moving to bullpup now rather then conventional.

 

[lobbie111]

Everyone is taking this training issue from the point of other nations small arms. You may or may not know that assult rifles and the like are ILLEGAL to operate as a civilian in Australia, when you enlist in the army, that will be the only time you will ever use an assult rifle unless you join a specialist police unit. Australian soldiers are brought up on the steyr's they have nothing to compare it to, they learn to use it just as efficiently as their american counterparts, therefore the comparison between magazine changes isn't valid.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Australian soldiers are brought up on the steyr's they have nothing to compare it to, they learn to use it just as efficiently as their american counterparts, therefore the comparison between magazine changes isn't valid.

sorry, thats just plain wrong. tests were conducted using various arms with virgns as well as experienced small arms operators.

the whole reason for conducting the tests was to establish efficiency, logistics, training and competency data. why and how do you think we know that bullies are better for newbies? -

we buy based on real tests, not marketing hype...

 

[Cooch]

...... we know that bullies are better for newbies?

As something of a minor firearms enthusiast, this has me really rather interested.
Assuming similar sighting systems, most of the issues that I've encountered when coaching newbies to shoot (accurately) with civilian arms have centered around handling, noise/recoil management and trigger control.

I'd be curious to know what it is about the bullpup design that makes it easier to teach people to shoot well with it. If this has been identified.

I don't doubt what you say, but we don't see many firearms of that style in the competitive sports in which speed of handling and accuracy are paramount, which would be expected if the design held an inherent advantage.

VERY respectfully............. Peter

 

[IrishHitman]

Why are we only discussing Australia?
What about the other main users of the AUG? Does Austria or Ireland need to replace it? Does the A1 have water problems?

gf0012-aust, give us some sources to prove your point.
I'm particularly interested to hear about this..

 

[Aussie Digger]

gf, can you tell me the typical combat mix of arms in a section, ie barrel lengths etc. Is there a 'Designated Marksman' type role in Australian Infantry with the Steyr Heavy Barrel with Bipod?

A standard infantry section will have 2x F-89 Minimi's and 7x F-88A2 Steyr rifles at present.

Variants of the F-88 in-service include those with Grenade Launcher Attachments and those with "picatinny rail" mountings, which used to be known as the "F-88S" (scope).

They all have the same barrel length.

The only other "barrel length" difference is the F-88C "Carbine" variant which is available for issue within some Armoured Corps Units and possibly some other units. Being a Carbine, the only differences are a significantly shorter barrel and therefore slightly less weight and no bayonet lug fitted.

They also use a different BFA (blank firing attachment) which was a pain the arse to screw in compared to the one on the "standard" rifle, as I recall.

There is no "heavy barrel" version in-service in Australia, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Why are we only discussing Australia?
What about the other main users of the AUG? Does Austria or Ireland need to replace it? Does the A1 have water problems?

gf0012-aust, give us some sources to prove your point.
I'm particularly interested to hear about this..

Cause that was what the person who started the thread wanted to discuss. I don't have a problem discussing other Steyr rifle users requirements, but a new thread might be more appropriate...

 

[IrishHitman]

Cause that was what the person who started the thread wanted to discuss. I don't have a problem discussing other Steyr rifle users requirements, but a new thread might be more appropriate...

You're probably right, but I just thought it a little strange to discuss Australia only when there are other major users.

 

[gf0012-aust]

gf0012-aust, give us some sources to prove your point.

I'm particularly interested to hear about this..

Raw info validation is not as easy as that. The data and results is not in the public domain for a number of reasons.

However, in very very simple terms, it was apparent from the evaluation date that comparative stats through things like the 3 stages of recoil on the Steyrs was very different to groups of newbies who went through and fired conventionals such as M-16 and the SLR.

The resultant follow costs associated with getting someone very green (or a virgin) to be proficient was significantly less.

I would assume that everyone who's tested Steyrs against other PCW's etc.. would have generated similar results - so the results are not ADF unique.

I don't doubt what you say, but we don't see many firearms of that style in the competitive sports in which speed of handling and accuracy are paramount, which would be expected if the design held an inherent advantage.

See above. Dunno myself (one of our test shooters was an Olympian - and he hated bullies with a passion), although a number of respected Alpine troops in various Euro militaries use bullies for similar reasons that we found - although the extrapolation fro them was not for newbies but for a weapons solution that could hit and be used without neg influencing the shooter

I spent a couple of years on a recoil mitigation program for longarms - and our focus was on conventional existing designs rather than bullies - and that was based on data we were getting from a couple of Tier1 and Tier 2 militaries. You can no doubt appreciate that data detail is not going to be avail in the PD. Obliquely though, you've no doubt heard of the problems that were own goaled by "Another Defective Item"

 

[IrishHitman]

I don't doubt what you say, but we don't see many firearms of that style in the competitive sports in which speed of handling and accuracy are paramount, which would be expected if the design held an inherent advantage.

I didn't say that... Why does it quote it as my comment?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I didn't say that... Why does it quote it as my comment?

finger fart on my part - all fixed now...

 

[IrishHitman]

finger fart on my part - all fixed now...

Good good.
Anyway, very interesting stuff about the performance.

There seems to be a big hype about bullpups these days, even in the mainstream media....
If you can get us unclassified raw data, don't hesitate to pm it...