Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Marc 1]

How come the SAS of Australia, NZ and UK - all bullpup using countries - prefer the conventional M4?

Although the number of new bullpup user countries grow every year, there are just as many who opted for non-bullpup new rifle options like the G36

I was in the green machine (Inf) during the changeover from SLR/M16 to Steyr.

One reason why could be that particularly on close sneaker ranges (targets popping up close to you as you move forward scout style, I could put far more of my double tap rounds into the targets with the M16 than I could with SLR or Steyr. I remember thinking the weapon just seemed more 'pointable' and natural (or it could have been the lighter weight?). That said, my marksmanship taking deliberate aimed shots was best with SLR, good with Austeyr and not quite as good with M16. Seeing as the sneaky guys are more likely to need this close range first hit capability to get away - maybe this is one of the reasons they are favoured.

All told I'd be happy to take any of them, (preference for SLR or Austeyr) - although I've not had a chance to fire the latest versions of the Austeyr.

My 5c

 

[lobbie111]

Bad example. The G36 was selected specificially as an intermediary stopgap design, after the funding for the (bullpup) G11 was dropped.

Dropped because it was going knowere due to the design of the rifle, if not think of another design...M16/M4 is an example no american firm (especially colt) has expirience with bulpups, I recognise that armalite has some designs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Dropped because it was going knowere due to the design of the rifle, if not think of another design...M16/M4 is an example no american firm (especially colt) has expirience with bulpups, I recognise that armalite has some designs.

yes and no, MSAR STG-556 and the Bushmaster M17S.

both are unique in light of the discussions in here....

 

[kato]

Dropped because it was going knowere due to the design of the rifle

You wouldn't really sign (and later cancel) an order for 600,000 units in that case, would you?

Yes, yes, i know... fftopic

 

[lobbie111]

Back on topic, has anyone like Gf has said considered the thought of replacing the AUG with another bullpup? say like the G11

 

[Cutaway]

Although still tarnished with the reputation of being a rubbish weapon after being revamped, The SA80A2(or a derivative of it) may be a great weapon as it is the most accurate assault rifle.

Regarding the G11, The GSG9 still have some mothballed(or rumoured to?) with some remaining batches of caseless ammo. It would be a great weapon for clandestine ops as it wont leave traces of spent bass everywhere alongside abidextrous ergonomics.

The G11 would be a good weapon but still dont think it would enter service yet unless other nations were mass buying/manufacturing them, Plus it may also have to be officially approved by NATO and the STANAG agreement.

Not to forget, Benelli once manufactured a 9mm caseless submachine gun in the 1980s.

 

[DavidDCM]

Regarding the G11, The GSG9 still have some mothballed(or rumoured to?) with some remaining batches of caseless ammo.

No. Period.

€dit/ Didn't you have that discussion a couple weeks back? The G11 is dead as it can be. It never left prototype status and there is no serial production rifle of it. Not a single G11 is in service anywhere on this planet. Mass production machinery does not exist and the H&K engineers totally gave up the idea of it's design. There's no way in the world it will ever enter service.

 

[Chino]

I could put far more of my double tap rounds into the targets with the M16 than I could with SLR or Steyr. ...That said, my marksmanship taking deliberate aimed shots was best with SLR, good with Austeyr and not quite as good with M16.

Our basic marksmanship qualification require a fair bit of running and shooting. With the M16 I can hit with consistency over iron sights out to 300m.

IMO ergonomically the M16 is almost unbeatable. Switches are all in the right places and mag change is fastest possible.

Could this be the reason why SF people who need to fight in close proximity prefer it over bullpups?

 

[croc]

Does any one know if Thales has produced 6 wheeled version of Bushmaster yet?

 

[battlensign]

Labour just promised to extend the 3% real increase per year by an extra year, and for the next four years swan says it'll be close to 4%.

In the budget if you watched.

Opposition Defence Spokesman (and leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Senator Nick Minchin stated that this budget missed the opportunity to order a 4th AWD. Sorry, no cite as it was a story I heard on the ABC National Radio station.

I do not agree with the Senator's assessment, however, as if some of the posting members here were right then it was only likely to be after the local industry performed well that the potential would be actualised, if at all.

Brett.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I don't see a 4th being ordered until perhaps 1st AWD fitout. It may be used to gap inbetween the collins replacements, Anzac replacements etc, keeping skilled people and infrastructure effective. After all, we haven't cut steel on the first ship yet.

We still haven't cleared for sale vital US equipment to us yet on the first 3. I would not read too much into this. The government is just saying the decision will happen next budget.

That said a 4th ordered would at least settle people down about the decision making process over the miniburke/F100. Getting the 4th awd ordered I think will pave the way for additional naval purchases later on.

(third LHD fingers crossed)

 

[battlensign]

To be fair.....it would have been it would have been a little strange to start indicating major capital equipment purchases when we do not know what the outcome of the white-paper deliberations is going to be. The DOD has already been copping some flak from critics for not really having a central plan and ordering ad hoc (I don't believe this, but its what is being said). Anything new in this budget would have simply added to the credibility of such arguments.

- On the Army side of things.....Personally, I still think we are a squadron of Abrams short (possible a squadron short of Tigers and CH-47s too) and need a proper mechanised infantry vehicle......I hope the white-paper confirms this.

Brett.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Does any one know if Thales has produced 6 wheeled version of Bushmaster yet?

Yes they have is the answer.
Problem is no-one has ordered it!

Extract from an interview with Chris jenkins, managing director of Thales Australia, in Australian Defence Magazine:

ADM:Are there any plans to improve protection levels of the standard vehicle? And what's happened to the proposed six wheeled variant?

JENKINS: We've created a 6 wheeled stretch hull in the US with Oshkosh and it enabled a higher payload and up armoring and so on. It's there, the design's in being. If that requirement comes up in the US, then it's sitting there, ready and waiting. The duel axle gives you the extra capacity for payload and armour. It's always a trade off between weight and protection, and you need to consider also manoeuvrability and how you're going to transport the vehicle too.
We see Bushmaster as an important strategic capability of the force protection that's available to the ADF right now. We'd like to see that evolve as a platform in terms of the systems it's carrying - there are many ways of enhancing the capabilities of Bushmaster so we'll be extending that strategic capability.
Bushmaster's our specialty, we're proud of it and we know it's one of the vehicles that's of most importance to the ADF today.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Elbit selected for BGC3 (LAND 200)






Elbit has been selected as preferred tenderer for the Land 200 Battle Group and Below, Command Control and Communications (BGC3).
Elbit had teamed up with Boeing in offering their battle management system, which is in service with the Israeli Defence Force (IDF).
The integrated system comprises command and control software, advanced electro-optical sensors, multi-functional displays, information and communications systems, and advanced mission systems.


Elbit says that its BMS supports every requirement of battalion-and-below tactical units, meeting all their operational needs, including direct fire engagement and manoeuvre, indirect fire support, intelligence and logistics.
However Elbit was told last week by Electronic Systems Division that while Defence preferred Elbit’s kit over that offered by Saab Systems and Raytheon Australia, they did not want Boeing in that particular picture.


Elbit will now be supplying their battle management systems from Israel and the DMO will be handling the integration (or so we hear).


As to the Combat Net Radio systems sought under L200 we believe these are being evaluated under JP2092 which will fund their purchase through Land 200.


And what are we likely to see?



A mix of Harris, or Thales JTRS compliant mounted and dismounted radios plus Raytheon’s EPLRS.


General Dynamics was an original contender for Land 200 but pulled out when it was sacked from JP2072 leaving Harris without a sponsor.

Courtesy: www.australiandefence.com.au

Strange that they've chosen this whilst still deciding on the radios that will "link" this system to the emerging network and that "DMO" is going to integrate them...

If they choose an Israeli "off the shelf" system, which would presumably represent the easiest integration challenge (and are reportedly good kit in of themselves) integration with US systems (and crypto) will be a challenge...

Interesting...

 

[Todjaeger]

Elbit has been selected as preferred tenderer for the Land 200 Battle Group and Below, Command Control and Communications (BGC3).
Elbit had teamed up with Boeing in offering their battle management system, which is in service with the Israeli Defence Force (IDF).
The integrated system comprises command and control software, advanced electro-optical sensors, multi-functional displays, information and communications systems, and advanced mission systems.

Elbit says that its BMS supports every requirement of battalion-and-below tactical units, meeting all their operational needs, including direct fire engagement and manoeuvre, indirect fire support, intelligence and logistics.
However Elbit was told last week by Electronic Systems Division that while Defence preferred Elbit’s kit over that offered by Saab Systems and Raytheon Australia, they did not want Boeing in that particular picture.

Elbit will now be supplying their battle management systems from Israel and the DMO will be handling the integration (or so we hear).

I find it interesting that the ADF did not want Boeing involved in integration. Does anyone have any (releasable) idea why?

Also, is there any reason why the DMO would want to do the systems integration, given some of the recent troubles with project performance? Or is it due to being a comm/sig system, something that the ADF/DMO feel more "comfortable" in managing? If anyone is free to comment, it would be interesting to hear...

-Cheers

 

[jacktar]

I find it interesting that the ADF did not want Boeing involved in integration. Does anyone have any (releasable) idea why?

Also, is there any reason why the DMO would want to do the systems integration, given some of the recent troubles with project performance? Or is it due to being a comm/sig system, something that the ADF/DMO feel more "comfortable" in managing? If anyone is free to comment, it would be interesting to hear...

-Cheers

Strange happenings indeed. I understand that Elbit have approach some Australian companies to undertake the integration tasks, so I think they are still trying to come up with a strategy. From what I'm told the issue revolves around ITARs and crypto.

 

[stump1100]

Gents, I was on the BAL Bid team so I can shed some light on the proceedings (within reason). I obviously have to be a little circumspect with anything I post here but it is alleged that is, in part, related to performance on other programs.

You might wonder why the Elbit/Boeing team was not informed of the potential situation when we first announced intention to bid for Land 200 (75+125).........

I believe it has left the Prime in an impossible position to execute given the IP rights and other "minor" issues like ITAR and COMSEC.

DMO as an integrator will be interesting as well the flow-on effects into JP2072.

 

[PeterM]

Does anyone know about this new multi spectral camouflage system for the Abrams and Hercules?

Will this eventually be put on the ASLAV, M113s and other vehicles?

First Multispectral Camouflage Systems for Abrams Main Battle Tanks
Saab AB | Jun 4, 2008

In less than six months, Saab Barracuda has delivered prototype camouflage systems fitted to the Australian Army for the M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tanks and M88A2 Hercules Armoured Recovery Vehicles, giving them higher survivability on the battlefield.

The contract worth $4.2 million AUD was signed in December 2007 to design, manufacture and fit camouflage to these tracked vehicles after the Australian Army identified the need to reduce the multispectral signatures and to reduce the solar heat transfer into the vehicles while operating in Australian conditions.

These special camouflage systems are designed to significantly reduce the visual, near-infrared, thermal infrared, and radar signature of the vehicles. The second part of this requirement is achieved using Saab’s Heat Transfer Reduction technologies which are designed to make the internal environment of the vehicle more liveable in the extreme conditions of northern Australia.

The effectiveness of the multispectral camouflage systems is being verified in tests conducted by the Defence Science and Technology Organisation.

“Saab has been supplying the Australian Defence Force with its signature management capability for thirty years, and this project reaffirms their trust in Saab’s capability and experience”, says Bob Fuller, Managing Director of Saab Barracuda Pty Ltd.

The design and manufacture was carried out by Saab Barracuda in Sydney with materials and support from Saab Barracuda, Sweden, and other local suppliers. This camouflage system now has export potential for the other countries using advanced classes of main battle tanks.

Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs

.

 

[Waylander]

Jup, I read about it's adoption for the aussie army some days ago.

One can currently see it in action in A-stan where it is in service with the danish Leopard IIA5DK.

Defenitely a fine piece of kit and should IMHO get adopted by everybody who can pay for it!

 

[PeterM]

I imagine that it is some variant of the heat reflective paint that are used on roofs in Northern Australia. The paint is excellent for reducing heat both on the surface and internally

What else would be included in a "Multispectral Camouflage System"?