- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #21
What about the KBV001 of the swedish coast guard? Let's say we get 2 of those as Patrol/SAR ships and add a few KBV312 or the RIB's you suggested?
Hypothetical defence forces
- Thread starter korvo
- Start date
If it's just crew, the Kbv-301 i mentioned above has a regular crew of 4 personnel.
http://www.kustbevakningen.se/Documents/fartygskatalog/Övervakningsfartyg/301.pdf
Swedish Coastguard operates 11 of them.
http://www.kustbevakningen.se/Documents/fartygskatalog/Övervakningsfartyg/301.pdf
Swedish Coastguard operates 11 of them.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #23
Sounds good in combination with KBV001 - they would be operating in the same conditions as the Swedes.If it's just crew, the Kbv-301 i mentioned above has a regular crew of 4 personnel.
Swedish Coastguard operates 11 of them.
Korvo, have you come to some sort of conclusion wether you want af coast guard or a navy.Sounds good in combination with KBV001 - they would be operating in the same conditions as the Swedes.
In my opinion, it is vital to be able to strike a amphibous attackforce before it reaches the shores of the country.
If you want a navy, who is able play a part in stalling an amphibious attack, some of the ships need to be armed with some sort of SSM and maybe SAM.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #25
I guess I better stick with the Coast Guard idea; more realistic and affordable for such a tiny nation. For stalling an amphibious attack, I would rely on Hellfire or eurospike missiles on tripods. Aren't the Finns and Norwegians using that kind of set-up?Korvo, have you come to some sort of conclusion wether you want af coast guard or a navy.
In my opinion, it is vital to be able to strike a amphibous attackforce before it reaches the shores of the country.
If you want a navy, who is able play a part in stalling an amphibious attack, some of the ships need to be armed with some sort of SSM and maybe SAM.
It is true, that both the Swedes and the Norwegians use the Hellfire missile in their coastaldefence of their archipelago and fiordes, but both rely on ships armed with real SSM's and attackplanes to make the first and hard strikes on an amphibious attack. The Hellfires (or Eurospikes) are with a range of about 8 kilometer the next line of defence, if the enemy comes into the archipelago and fiordes, where the distances are much smaller.I guess I better stick with the Coast Guard idea; more realistic and affordable for such a tiny nation. For stalling an amphibious attack, I would rely on Hellfire or eurospike missiles on tripods. Aren't the Finns and Norwegians using that kind of set-up?
If you want a defence, that is capable to stall an amphibious attack, then in my opinion you need to have longer range SSM, so you can strike at much longer range and take out some of the attack force before it comes into reach of the coast, were the Hellfires or Eurospikes can take over. That will also give more time to any allies to react and send assistance to Norland
F-15 Eagle
New Member
My Hypothetical defence force
Well if I were to make a hypothetical defense force it would depend on what threats my fictional country is facing. If my "maid up" country did not have any enemies or threats and if it had a very small population of say only 50,000 people then my geofictional countires military would be like this.
Army: 5000 troops with 20 modern tanks and 10 APCs with 24 155mm artillery cannons.
The navy would be very small with only 2 destroyers and maybe one submarine with 3000 personel. And a small handfull of some navel helicopters.
Air Force would have around 20 fighters and 50 support and transport aircraft and helicopters with 2500 personel.
Well if I were to make a hypothetical defense force it would depend on what threats my fictional country is facing. If my "maid up" country did not have any enemies or threats and if it had a very small population of say only 50,000 people then my geofictional countires military would be like this.
Army: 5000 troops with 20 modern tanks and 10 APCs with 24 155mm artillery cannons.
The navy would be very small with only 2 destroyers and maybe one submarine with 3000 personel. And a small handfull of some navel helicopters.
Air Force would have around 20 fighters and 50 support and transport aircraft and helicopters with 2500 personel.
Indeed. The numbers he gives are, perhaps, feasible as wartime mobilisation figures, but are insupportable for anything other than a short time. The cost of the equipment is also too great for such a small population to afford, even if they're as rich as Luxembourgers or Liechtensteiners.10,500 soldiers for 50,000 population?
I'd say a single company of 150-200 men in a gendarmerie-style double-role would be more appropriate, with maybe 4-5 times that in part-time reserves.
F-15 Eagle
New Member
OK so maybe my military might be too big for that small of a population. Any figures on a more likely number?
If I were to only have a military of 150-200 personnel then I would not have a navy but I might still have a few tanks. Would it be possible to have say 4 fighter jets with a 200 strong military or is it a ground force only?
If I were to only have a military of 150-200 personnel then I would not have a navy but I might still have a few tanks. Would it be possible to have say 4 fighter jets with a 200 strong military or is it a ground force only?
Perhaps a platoon of tanks or two in the reserves. The peacetime unit would probably get wheeled APCs or so, including for riot control and such.
Something like a TM-170 (or the military version: Condor 1/2) or UR-416, they're used in quite a couple nations for such purposes.
In aviation, if there's a lot of money, there could be 2 or 3 multipurpose helos (most likely a mix of light and medium helos), with a civilian support unit. Primarily for peacetime SAR and riot control support, wartime scout and light AT or liaison role. Definitely no fighters.
Reserves in such a military would probably consist of something like an infantry battalion trained for terrain-specific home defense, backed up with small units specific to the tasks at hand (e.g. AT, AA, medical), and an engineer unit that would have a heightened readiness for peacetime support.
Something like a TM-170 (or the military version: Condor 1/2) or UR-416, they're used in quite a couple nations for such purposes.
In aviation, if there's a lot of money, there could be 2 or 3 multipurpose helos (most likely a mix of light and medium helos), with a civilian support unit. Primarily for peacetime SAR and riot control support, wartime scout and light AT or liaison role. Definitely no fighters.
Reserves in such a military would probably consist of something like an infantry battalion trained for terrain-specific home defense, backed up with small units specific to the tasks at hand (e.g. AT, AA, medical), and an engineer unit that would have a heightened readiness for peacetime support.
When i read the suggestion of Saab Gripen aircraft i laughed.
I pictured the simpsons episode where sideshow bob stole the wright brothers aircraft..
Two Harrier fly sideshow bob, and one pilot says, "Prepare to engage enemy." Unfortunately, they just speed right past Sideshow Bob.
"Bogey's airspeed not sufficient for intercept. Suggest we get out and walk." :lol3
A dozen helicopters would be a better option. Have 3 equipped for anti-ship role, 3 equipped for ground attack and the other 6 with just a machine gun mount on the side. Lynx helicopter or NH-90 would be a good choice.
Simplified training and logistics by operating one aircraft type. By buying fewer aircraft types allow for more total aircraft to be purchased. This is definitely a major problem if you start ordered only a handful of each type of aircraft.
I'd then install a pair of long range radar sites on the two largest hills/mountains. This would allow ships/aircraft to be detected at 100+ mile range. Not as good as a dedicated AWAC, but it would be cheaper and operational 24 hours a day and can control all sea/air traffic.
I'd purchase a few CN-235/295's. These would be used for transport of special forces or emergency supplies. If either of these small islands had a postage service or small airline i'd give financial incentive to operate the same aircraft type so they can be leased in emergency.
I'd potentially try and provide the same financial incentive for a company operating helicopters on the island. Operate some cheap commercial bell helicopters for training of pilots and reduce the number of NH-90/lynx that could be bought. In emergency the government can fly the private operators aircraft.
I pictured the simpsons episode where sideshow bob stole the wright brothers aircraft..
Two Harrier fly sideshow bob, and one pilot says, "Prepare to engage enemy." Unfortunately, they just speed right past Sideshow Bob.
"Bogey's airspeed not sufficient for intercept. Suggest we get out and walk." :lol3
A dozen helicopters would be a better option. Have 3 equipped for anti-ship role, 3 equipped for ground attack and the other 6 with just a machine gun mount on the side. Lynx helicopter or NH-90 would be a good choice.
Simplified training and logistics by operating one aircraft type. By buying fewer aircraft types allow for more total aircraft to be purchased. This is definitely a major problem if you start ordered only a handful of each type of aircraft.
I'd then install a pair of long range radar sites on the two largest hills/mountains. This would allow ships/aircraft to be detected at 100+ mile range. Not as good as a dedicated AWAC, but it would be cheaper and operational 24 hours a day and can control all sea/air traffic.
I'd purchase a few CN-235/295's. These would be used for transport of special forces or emergency supplies. If either of these small islands had a postage service or small airline i'd give financial incentive to operate the same aircraft type so they can be leased in emergency.
I'd potentially try and provide the same financial incentive for a company operating helicopters on the island. Operate some cheap commercial bell helicopters for training of pilots and reduce the number of NH-90/lynx that could be bought. In emergency the government can fly the private operators aircraft.
IrishHitman
New Member
For Bovania I suggest the following:
3900 + reserves (6 active troops per thousand citizens + reserves)
2000 combat troops, (800 mechanised troops, 200 marines, 400 naval, 400 airforce)
Equipment to come.
3900 + reserves (6 active troops per thousand citizens + reserves)
2000 combat troops, (800 mechanised troops, 200 marines, 400 naval, 400 airforce)
Equipment to come.
Air Force: 10-15 A109/AW139 for utility/SAR/training etc.For Bovania I suggest the following:
3900 + reserves (6 active troops per thousand citizens + reserves)
2000 combat troops, (800 mechanised troops, 200 marines, 400 naval, 400 airforce)
Equipment to come.
2-4 C295 some as MPA, some as transports
PC-9s or L-159 for advanced training/light attack
and some (unspecified) fixed wing/rotary basic trainers.
Navy: FACM's-Goteborg's or Helsinki's
Maybe a small auxiliary (ala Lativa/Estonia)
A MCM ship
Lots of small patrol boats and LCU's
I'm no good with Army equipment, anyone like to chip in.
IrishHitman
New Member
Bovania:
Overall Manpower:
3900 professionals + reserve forces
(Every citizen is a reservist, operating a Swiss-style militia system)
Land Troops and Marine Equipment:
Assault Rifle: FAMAS or FN FNC (Ak5 Swedish Version preferably).
Designated Marksman Rifle: USN Mk 12 SPR.
Sniper Rifle: L96 AW
Squad Support: FN MINIMI (M249 SAW for the Yanks in the audience).
Portable AT: FGM-148 Javelin
Portable AA: Thales AD Starstreak HVM/FIM-92 Stinger mix.
APC: GTK Boxer/Stryker MGS
MBT: Not sure if there's any point in MBTs.
Mobile AA: ADATS
Artillery: 81mm Mortars, M119 Howitzers.
Naval Service:
2 FREMM Frigates.
D'Estienne d'Orves-class corvettes (I think the French call them avisas or something like that..)
Second-hand German Gepard-class gunboats.
Air Corps:
Pilatus PC-9 (Trainer/Ground Attack).
L-159 (multi-role fighter)
Overall Manpower:
3900 professionals + reserve forces
(Every citizen is a reservist, operating a Swiss-style militia system)
Land Troops and Marine Equipment:
Assault Rifle: FAMAS or FN FNC (Ak5 Swedish Version preferably).
Designated Marksman Rifle: USN Mk 12 SPR.
Sniper Rifle: L96 AW
Squad Support: FN MINIMI (M249 SAW for the Yanks in the audience).
Portable AT: FGM-148 Javelin
Portable AA: Thales AD Starstreak HVM/FIM-92 Stinger mix.
APC: GTK Boxer/Stryker MGS
MBT: Not sure if there's any point in MBTs.
Mobile AA: ADATS
Artillery: 81mm Mortars, M119 Howitzers.
Naval Service:
2 FREMM Frigates.
D'Estienne d'Orves-class corvettes (I think the French call them avisas or something like that..)
Second-hand German Gepard-class gunboats.
Air Corps:
Pilatus PC-9 (Trainer/Ground Attack).
L-159 (multi-role fighter)
I agree that MBTs would not be needed.Bovania:
Naval Service:
2 FREMM Frigates.
D'Estienne d'Orves-class corvettes (I think the French call them avisas or something like that..)
Second-hand German Gepard-class gunboats.
Air Corps:
Pilatus PC-9 (Trainer/Ground Attack).
L-159 (multi-role fighter)
But FREMM frigates would be overkill, you would want nothing bigger than an OPV/corvette (like the avisos you suggested), but more likely FACMs.
I would not buy PC-9s and L-159s. I'd purchase (or contract the basic training out) some cheap basic trainers (T-67, Z 142 etc) and buy an Advanced trainer/Light Attack (for CAS and possibly anti-ship work) like Super Tucanos, PC-9s, L-39, L-159 etc. I'd then get decent SAMs and Radar that will shoot down any enemy fighters over the sea.
IrishHitman
New Member
I failed to mention amounts that the above would be bought at.I agree that MBTs would not be needed.
But FREMM frigates would be overkill, you would want nothing bigger than an OPV/corvette (like the avisos you suggested), but more likely FACMs.
I would not buy PC-9s and L-159s. I'd purchase (or contract the basic training out) some cheap basic trainers (T-67, Z 142 etc) and buy an Advanced trainer/Light Attack (for CAS and possibly anti-ship work) like Super Tucanos, PC-9s, L-39, L-159 etc. I'd then get decent SAMs and Radar that will shoot down any enemy fighters over the sea.
If I'm reading the situation right, Norland and Bovania are hostile, making greater naval and aircraft capability a necessity.
PC-9s are trainers and for ground attack, with obvious priority for training.
i.e. relatively low numbers. L-159s would be the staple aircraft, and would be used for ground attack and air-to-air attack. i.e. relatively higher numbers.
Sure, SAMs can shoot down planes, but can they manage airspace?
I absolutely agree that the FREMMs are overkill. However I am not sure about the D'Estienne d'Orves avisos and the german gun FACs. They are geting older and older. If you cgoose to put them in your inventory this means you will desperately have to replace them in a couple of years or so.
Of course if you insist on a ship of the aviso type you can put an italian Minerva as a flagship, but you can go without it. A Cassiopea or two would be a better solution. They lack the ability to bite the way the Minerva can, but are more versatile. If Bovania has the funds for that I sugest for up to 10 Combat boat 90 with Hellfire ATGMs or even better a ore advanced ATGM system. Put also up to 6 minesweepers/ minehunters and a small support ship plus some inflatable boats and you're good to go. Of course you will need two to four sea observation stations and some minor naval aviation, but the latter should be in the air force.
Also for the air force I agree that L-159 and armed PC-9 put together is not needed and has no point.
- up to 16 PC-9M armed with ATGMs, gun-pods, rocket-pods, up to 600kg of bombload and some type of recce pod. If you want you could integrate two Sidewinders.
- additional 4 PC-9Ms for training needs (you could skip them and use the armed units also for training)
- between 3 and 5 maritime patrol PZL M-28 Bryza's plus 2 to 4 more Bryzas for transport (it can operate from field airstrips and has the same engine the PC-9 has, too bad it has no anti-ship missiles. You can use it in combination with shore-to-ship missile batteries, otherwise you will need another type of MP aircraft and that raises operational costs)
- Once again if you have the funds for that you could purchase the modern EC.635 scout helicopter with armament (up to 10 units), otherwise buy some old OH-58D Kiowa Warriors, or Hughes.530 or Gazelles
- Up to 16 light utility helicopters (about 10 AW139 would be nice, but UH-1H-II should do the trick aswell)
- 3 to 5 maritime helicopters like the AW139
If you think you need a transport aircraft heavier than the M-28 you could put 2-3 CN.295 in the national airline to save costs.
For the army:
If you intend to also use it as a gendarmery force you will need civilian standart vehicles as DURO.III, some Mercedes-Benz G-class... If not:
Anyway you say the terrain is mountaineous and road conditions are poor. I would say you should skip any MBTs and light tanks. You could add some 30-60 second hand surplus BTR-80s to the inventory. Other than that lots of Unimogs, G-Wagens, ATVs, maybe some Pinzgauers.
Artillery should be towed. You will have to buy lots of ATGMs, SPG-9 (a special forces retired captain from my country told me it just kicks ass and there ain't a better solution) and MANPADS (I sugest Igla 9K38) plus ZU-23. Up to 24 9K37 Buk would be the best top solution.
Of course if you insist on a ship of the aviso type you can put an italian Minerva as a flagship, but you can go without it. A Cassiopea or two would be a better solution. They lack the ability to bite the way the Minerva can, but are more versatile. If Bovania has the funds for that I sugest for up to 10 Combat boat 90 with Hellfire ATGMs or even better a ore advanced ATGM system. Put also up to 6 minesweepers/ minehunters and a small support ship plus some inflatable boats and you're good to go. Of course you will need two to four sea observation stations and some minor naval aviation, but the latter should be in the air force.
Also for the air force I agree that L-159 and armed PC-9 put together is not needed and has no point.
- up to 16 PC-9M armed with ATGMs, gun-pods, rocket-pods, up to 600kg of bombload and some type of recce pod. If you want you could integrate two Sidewinders.
- additional 4 PC-9Ms for training needs (you could skip them and use the armed units also for training)
- between 3 and 5 maritime patrol PZL M-28 Bryza's plus 2 to 4 more Bryzas for transport (it can operate from field airstrips and has the same engine the PC-9 has, too bad it has no anti-ship missiles. You can use it in combination with shore-to-ship missile batteries, otherwise you will need another type of MP aircraft and that raises operational costs)
- Once again if you have the funds for that you could purchase the modern EC.635 scout helicopter with armament (up to 10 units), otherwise buy some old OH-58D Kiowa Warriors, or Hughes.530 or Gazelles
- Up to 16 light utility helicopters (about 10 AW139 would be nice, but UH-1H-II should do the trick aswell)
- 3 to 5 maritime helicopters like the AW139
If you think you need a transport aircraft heavier than the M-28 you could put 2-3 CN.295 in the national airline to save costs.
For the army:
If you intend to also use it as a gendarmery force you will need civilian standart vehicles as DURO.III, some Mercedes-Benz G-class... If not:
Anyway you say the terrain is mountaineous and road conditions are poor. I would say you should skip any MBTs and light tanks. You could add some 30-60 second hand surplus BTR-80s to the inventory. Other than that lots of Unimogs, G-Wagens, ATVs, maybe some Pinzgauers.
Artillery should be towed. You will have to buy lots of ATGMs, SPG-9 (a special forces retired captain from my country told me it just kicks ass and there ain't a better solution) and MANPADS (I sugest Igla 9K38) plus ZU-23. Up to 24 9K37 Buk would be the best top solution.
IrishHitman
New Member
Navy:I absolutely agree that the FREMMs are overkill. However I am not sure about the D'Estienne d'Orves avisos and the german gun FACs. They are geting older and older. If you cgoose to put them in your inventory this means you will desperately have to replace them in a couple of years or so.
Of course if you insist on a ship of the aviso type you can put an italian Minerva as a flagship, but you can go without it. A Cassiopea or two would be a better solution. They lack the ability to bite the way the Minerva can, but are more versatile. If Bovania has the funds for that I sugest for up to 10 Combat boat 90 with Hellfire ATGMs or even better a ore advanced ATGM system. Put also up to 6 minesweepers/ minehunters and a small support ship plus some inflatable boats and you're good to go. Of course you will need two to four sea observation stations and some minor naval aviation, but the latter should be in the air force.
Also for the air force I agree that L-159 and armed PC-9 put together is not needed and has no point.
- up to 16 PC-9M armed with ATGMs, gun-pods, rocket-pods, up to 600kg of bombload and some type of recce pod. If you want you could integrate two Sidewinders.
- additional 4 PC-9Ms for training needs (you could skip them and use the armed units also for training)
- between 3 and 5 maritime patrol PZL M-28 Bryza's plus 2 to 4 more Bryzas for transport (it can operate from field airstrips and has the same engine the PC-9 has, too bad it has no anti-ship missiles. You can use it in combination with shore-to-ship missile batteries, otherwise you will need another type of MP aircraft and that raises operational costs)
- Once again if you have the funds for that you could purchase the modern EC.635 scout helicopter with armament (up to 10 units), otherwise buy some old OH-58D Kiowa Warriors, or Hughes.530 or Gazelles
- Up to 16 light utility helicopters (about 10 AW139 would be nice, but UH-1H-II should do the trick aswell)
- 3 to 5 maritime helicopters like the AW139
If you think you need a transport aircraft heavier than the M-28 you could put 2-3 CN.295 in the national airline to save costs.
For the army:
If you intend to also use it as a gendarmery force you will need civilian standart vehicles as DURO.III, some Mercedes-Benz G-class... If not:
Anyway you say the terrain is mountaineous and road conditions are poor. I would say you should skip any MBTs and light tanks. You could add some 30-60 second hand surplus BTR-80s to the inventory. Other than that lots of Unimogs, G-Wagens, ATVs, maybe some Pinzgauers.
Artillery should be towed. You will have to buy lots of ATGMs, SPG-9 (a special forces retired captain from my country told me it just kicks ass and there ain't a better solution) and MANPADS (I sugest Igla 9K38) plus ZU-23. Up to 24 9K37 Buk would be the best top solution.
I chose the the D'Estienne d'Orves avisos and the German gunboats as they have extensive combat capabilities. More bite as you put it. Furthermore, modernisation of these would be a fairly easy task. The German gunboats and the d'Estienne d'Orves have the already proven Exocet missile (scurge of the British in the Falklands).
As for FREMMs being overkill, it's for superiority purposes, of course it's overkill. They would give Bovania a extremely modern missile frigate system.
FREMMs instead of the d'Estienne d'Orves class would have probably been a more appropriate suggestion, considering that the new frigates are replacing them..
I like the Combat Boat 90 idea.
Air Force:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Army:
1. Bovania is flat, Norland is mountainous.
2. BTR-80? Why would I choose that over the Boxer? Or the Stryker?
The Stryker has more variants than lego blocks, and can take on some tank roles.
3. If we're talking ATGM, Javelins are always a good option. As for the SPG-9, isn't that a recoilless gun? Maybe I'm wrong.
4. MANPADS is already covered by Stinger/Starstreak.
5. Mobile AA already covered by the ADATS, if a ZU-23-style AA platform is needed, then I'd opt for the Gepard FlaKPanzer.
I'm trying to keep Bovania's weapons strictly NATO so that my suggestions for Norland can be the opposite.
IrishHitman
New Member
What are you saying?British Awards? In Irish. Today.
It needs more British equipment?
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