Not without German agreement. And the German government is a bit more critical of Pakistan than the US when it comes to FMS.
launch of f22p ffg in shanghai hudong shipyard
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Perhaps that was meant to placate the overseas Chinese who are the buying the tickets. Honestly if they're really that superstitious, you would have to preferred to use the 8th day of the 8th month of the Lunar calendar instead.Actually there is nothing secular about the Chinese government when it comes to superstition. In fact, they are as superstitious as rulers were a few thousand years ago.
Winning the 2008 Olympics meant a great deal to all Chinese people because 2008 is considered to be a very auspicious year.
And if China isn't superstitious, why is the Olympics starting on the 8th day of the 8th month of 2008: 08082008?
Of course, 2008 had so far been a really bad year ironically. The torch relay is disrupted. Tibet riot. Stock markets fell.:shudder
Do you recall any space launches being made on the 8/8? They don't see to have any qualms designating one of the Long March rockets with a 4, the CZ-4 series.
Look at the PLA. There is no 8th Division in the PLAAF. The elite fighter division of the PLANAF is the 4th Division, they got the Su-30MK2s. The first unit to get the J-10s is the 44th Division of the PLAAF. The nuclear submarines start with a pennant number of 4, e.g. 401, 402, etc,. Starting from the first Han to the latest Jins and Shangs. Lol, the PLAN's pride and joy starts with a "4". The Jiangkai class use the type designation of 054 and an SSBN class with the designation Type 094. The newest PLAAF fighter radar use on the J-11B is the KLJ-4, and one of the most important PLAN radar types is the Type 364. The PLAN has never shied away from using 4 as part of the pennant number nor do they biased the pennant numbers to use 8 as much as possible. There is a sub with a pennant number of 324 and a frigate with a pennant of 524. Ship 888 is actually a replenishment ship, 8 is all typical reserved for replenishment ships, e.g. 885, 886, and 887.
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probably cost concerns, you already have HH-7 basically mature with Jiangwei II hull with that set of air defense combat system. Integrating a new system would require different sensors and integration with the combat system. If we are talking about Aster, I just don't see how it can fit on F-22P.
If you are planning to build ships in Pakistan, and are getting another country with experience and know how to do it through a new shipbuilding program and with financial loan support, getting that capability should never be discarded. Starting off with a 2500 ton easier design is great, the second ship could be of a more sophisticated design. Any used ship bought will be stop gaps, I wouldn't consider newly built ships as stop gaps, they will live their planned thirty years. The F22Ps may be of the second line of ships, may not be of the most sophisticated, but they will survive for their full lives.
hi friends....my first post here!
f-22p is a good ship for certain! Somehow I have always felt that PN was on the right track. IN has to contend with the growing PLAN capabilities. Its the biggest challenge facing us currently. However, for PN, sea denial and ship hunting (to hurt the enemy) are the most important objectives. IN knows this for certain. This is the major reason we see all our current ships under construction have strong anti-submarine warfare suites. At the same time, hunting submarines is and will remain tough. This is the sole reason numbers become important. IN does recognize the fact that a future conflict with PN will lead to surface ship losses. But then IN is making sure that once that happens, it has the capacity to reciprocate and take down the sub. IN's future plans do look to be tuned in for the same. However, I do feel that IN is not just trying to cope with depleting numbers....it is actually trying very hard to increase the numbers.
In that context, I feel PN has a need for atleast a few capital ships with good area denial capabilities. 2-3 such task forces can spell havoc for any indian task force tasked with blocking pakistani ports!!! I am thinking of ships like the p-15a IN is trying to get. Such ships must be eventually acquired by PN (within 10-12 years). Working with submarines like the U-214 near the port flanked by frigates like f-22p will no doubt provide pakistan with the best possible sea denial capability. At present, Indian ships are just getting more and more potent (atleast on paper)!!!!!
f-22p is a good ship for certain! Somehow I have always felt that PN was on the right track. IN has to contend with the growing PLAN capabilities. Its the biggest challenge facing us currently. However, for PN, sea denial and ship hunting (to hurt the enemy) are the most important objectives. IN knows this for certain. This is the major reason we see all our current ships under construction have strong anti-submarine warfare suites. At the same time, hunting submarines is and will remain tough. This is the sole reason numbers become important. IN does recognize the fact that a future conflict with PN will lead to surface ship losses. But then IN is making sure that once that happens, it has the capacity to reciprocate and take down the sub. IN's future plans do look to be tuned in for the same. However, I do feel that IN is not just trying to cope with depleting numbers....it is actually trying very hard to increase the numbers.
In that context, I feel PN has a need for atleast a few capital ships with good area denial capabilities. 2-3 such task forces can spell havoc for any indian task force tasked with blocking pakistani ports!!! I am thinking of ships like the p-15a IN is trying to get. Such ships must be eventually acquired by PN (within 10-12 years). Working with submarines like the U-214 near the port flanked by frigates like f-22p will no doubt provide pakistan with the best possible sea denial capability. At present, Indian ships are just getting more and more potent (atleast on paper)!!!!!
contedicavour
New Member
True. May be though Sylver VLS with MICA would do the job.
@ Kato : I wasn't aware Germany could influence exports of RAM. Interesting...
cheers
There's a CPA on RAM production between Raytheon and RAMSYS, under which each company gets 50% production from contracts. If Germany doesn't agree to an export, RAMSYS wouldn't be able to export systems (and components); a pure one-sided Raytheon sale would make the whole agreement rather shaky, and at minimum would require a "counter" procurement by "approved" customers (read USN in this case) for an equal number of missiles. A number of non-critical RAM components are also sole-sourced from Germany (and a number of others sole-sourced from the US).
4 is "si" not "shi", where "si" is also the sound for "death".
0 is not a bad number. It depends on the combination of numbers. For example, 108 sounded like "must (have a) good prosperity". Where else 104 sound like "must die".
But anyways, if you are familiar with the modern history of the China, you will know that CPC had been opposing, sometimes aggressively suppressing mythologies that had been part of the Chinese culture. And for this reason, I don't think the PLAN will take account of these "mythology". If they do, the are betraying the core of Marxism-Leninism. Thats a strong evidence of a crime when it comes to political wrestling.
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contedicavour
New Member
May be it explains why the Han class is so unlucky with its very high noise levels and its inability to go about undetected...
cheers
Its more of a technology prover, and like all early nuclear submarines, noisy. But in its final upgraded form, it should be a lot quieter than its original form, useful enough to deploy flank sonars. As a technology prover, the Hans did manage to avoid any serious catastrophe. Besides noise does not have anything to do with luck; catastrophe is. Despite facing a situation that is ripe for a catastrophe, being first time nuclear subs, with a navy and crews that never maintained and operated one before, the fact they never had a serious catastrophe can be considered quite lucky.
All the Jins and Shangs continue the 4xx pennant numbers. Maybe some time in the future, a future Chinese nuclear sub might get the awful sounding pennant of 444.
All the Jins and Shangs continue the 4xx pennant numbers. Maybe some time in the future, a future Chinese nuclear sub might get the awful sounding pennant of 444.
contedicavour
New Member
Well would we find out if something happened to a Han other than what a spy satellite can see ? I remember reading about a lot of rumours on the fact that the Xia SSBN actually had a sistership which sunk.
cheers
That certainly is not true. Cannot presume rumors are a fact unless proven and that is true of Chinese developments also, not given the double standard of being guilty until proven otherwise. I can remember old reports that suggest that as of 1999, the second Xia remains a still born project. The PLAN don't keep their accidents secret either, like what happened to Ming pennant 361 in 2003.
Besides, the spy sats could account for the Hans; there is three right there in Google Earth, which matches 5 - 2 scrapped = 3. That image has been dated circa 2005, and same image to the Xia in a dock being refitted. Since then at least one or two of the Hans have been refitted to an improved configuration and has been redeployed to Hainan, and another Han has recently began refit.
contedicavour
New Member
I agree with you, I was referring to rumours. But even apparent facts in China can be interpreted in different ways. Think of the Varyag carrier - is it being refitted to operate with PLAN ? Will it be a training asset ? Will it be turned over for some casino project as initially claimed ? In the meanwhile we are all staring at pictures of the Varyag wondering what will happen...
cheers
You are referring to speculation. Speculations are speculations, based on opinion.
A sub that sank isn't something to be speculated about. Its either there or not. Proven or not. Given that North and East China seas are among the most heavily trafficked and surveyed in the world, you would know by now if there is an SSBN wreck on the bottom. Another thing is that the Xia operated from the Deng era onwards, where the society and information gradually becomes loose. If there is indeed a second Xia built in the eighties, the real truth would have come out years ago, including pictures and stuff.
If you want to go with the rumor mill, there are a lot more rumors of a still born second Xia in the late nineties to early 2000s, but that can now be explained as the first 094. You can always study other PLAN examples of development, and one thing you can see is that if the very first example is having problems, they won't be so quick---if ever---to build a second one, until they get the problems done on the first one. The 051B destroyer is an example of this. If the first Xia had its share of problems, they won't build a second one soon enough after the first.
A sub that sank isn't something to be speculated about. Its either there or not. Proven or not. Given that North and East China seas are among the most heavily trafficked and surveyed in the world, you would know by now if there is an SSBN wreck on the bottom. Another thing is that the Xia operated from the Deng era onwards, where the society and information gradually becomes loose. If there is indeed a second Xia built in the eighties, the real truth would have come out years ago, including pictures and stuff.
If you want to go with the rumor mill, there are a lot more rumors of a still born second Xia in the late nineties to early 2000s, but that can now be explained as the first 094. You can always study other PLAN examples of development, and one thing you can see is that if the very first example is having problems, they won't be so quick---if ever---to build a second one, until they get the problems done on the first one. The 051B destroyer is an example of this. If the first Xia had its share of problems, they won't build a second one soon enough after the first.