T-129 Attack Helicopter

[s3kiz]

eliaslar

Actually no. The AH-64 and the Mi-28 have their designs based on much older doctrines and scenarios than the Mangusta.

We have to remember that both the American and Russian birds were the result of evolvement of their older respective models and were designed with a mass tank battle across european continent between the two opposing forces, USA and Soviets.

And we all know how the Americans like to do things "big" in everything they do and how the Soviets had to answer this, due to military equality and political image race.

The design priorities behind the Mangusta are different, sure effectively aimed at the same "end-user", the tanks and armoured ground targets, but on a different scale than their American or Russian counterparts.

Of course it is without doubt as a pilot one would prefer a top-notch Longbow Apache due to its "grunt" not only in performance but also image.

But national defence procurements rely on more things then such a "grunt". Just as a simple summary of selection criterias:

-Longbow Apaches are not on the menu when one seeks a chopper, you have to settle for a downgraded one.
-Even if it was available, it could be an "overkill" to use in certain scenarious, geographies, climates and foes. Thus the spending, not just moneteraly, of resources that could be made better use of.
-Buying the rights to a chassis and working on it, developing your technological/production capabilities is a greater rewarding intelligence than driving/flying around in a "grunty" machine for your neighbours to see.
-The (Turkish) Undersecretariat of Defence Industries has a plan to localy produce everything feasable in time, and this includes rotary air platforms. Its coordination and procurement is based on this long term strategic plan, the T-129 is just a small part of this.
-Finally, with the mentioned aspects of the T-129 in the above posts, I think it is a wise decision/selection, in context of the above criteria.
-T-129 becomes even more a wise selection the deeper we analyse in all aspects, capability,technical offset, strategic values, economic gains etc.

Like the saying goes, its not the size its the function thats important.

Lets hope we dont screw it up.

Cheers.

 

[jedigman]

The T-129 project broadened the turkish Defence Industry with the development of the Long Range Umtas Anti tank missile (like Hellfire II). Medium range Anti tank missile Omtas, the Laser Guided Rockets Cirit (like DAGR) and AselFlir 300T Targeting system.

What contributions has the procurement for AH-64 done for the Greek Defence Industry.

 

[s3kiz]

The T-129 project broadened the turkish Defence Industry with the development of the Long Range Umtas Anti tank missile (like Hellfire II). Medium range Anti tank missile Omtas, the Laser Guided Rockets Cirit (like DAGR) and AselFlir 300T Targeting system.

What contributions has the procurement for AH-64 done for the Greek Defence Industry.

Good question. :lam

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

If we compare the two programs, there is a difference.
Greek demand was for 20 helicopters at first place and then another banch of 12 helicopter (the AH-64D's), so this program is very small to have a subcontructing value for Greece, if US would make availalbe all the technology included in the subsystems.

Also Greek needs are not as big as Turkey's needs in attack helicopters. So the investment to be done, for the construction of the helicopters, wouldn't have any real possitive effect for Greece, except the loss of money.

Also because i may pressume your question about "how Greek industry will develop?", as i have written in another topic, Greece is a member in the development of NEURON UCAV.

Also about the survivability of AH-64, there is no question about it nor about it's agility and flying performance, this helicopter was developed to survive.

"has the ability to withstand hits from rounds up to 23MM in critical areas." http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-64.htm

About T-129, one of the main demands of the new attack helicopter program was that the helicopter was to be made in Turkey, and that's why T-129 and CSH-2 Rooivalk were the two final competitors, not only about their capabilities.

Maybe Turkey has other things in mind, about it's future helicopter force, maybe a Turkish project with technology acquired from T-129?

 

[s3kiz]

About T-129, one of the main demands of the new attack helicopter program was that the helicopter was to be made in Turkey, and that's why T-129 and CSH-2 Rooivalk were the two final competitors, not only about their capabilities........Maybe Turkey has other things in mind, about it's future helicopter force, maybe a Turkish project with technology acquired from T-129?

A correct synopsis there.

Like mentioned on many threads on DefenceTalk, Turkiye is trying to gradually gain the work experience needed to locally source technologies and platforms it may need in the future. As detailed below:

“In 2006 we did a Strategic Plan projecting that domestic industry will be able to supply 50 percent of the Turkish Armed Forces’ (TAF) arms and equipment needs by the year 2011, however due to the high performance been shown we have already reached 40 percent and expect that by 2009 we will reach 50 percents capability. This means that from 2009 half of the annual avarage expenditure of 3.5 billion dolars by TAF will remain in country.”
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7529

For example the Turkish Armed Forces Helicopter Project by TAI was afaik initially considered to be indigenously designed and built, but considering the small numbers (20) envolved, I think a TAI-foreign company venture is likely to occur:
http://www.tai.com.tr/en_menu2.aspx?node=115/256&menu_id=5&id=256&img=tai_ana_ust-program.swf

And heres the TAI T-129 page:
http://www.tai.com.tr/en_menu2.aspx?node=15/264&menu_id=5&id=264&img=tai_ana_ust-program.swf

Cheers.

 

[jedigman]

The T-129 is facing some problems due to tech transfer from the USA regarding the T800 engine, they wont allow to manufacture the engines in Turkey which is a big blow.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=137679&bolum=102

 

[suddendeath]

Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries Mr. Murad Bayar has commented on local press (Hurriyet Gazetesi) that the engines to be used on the T-129 choppers within the ATAK-II Programme (Turkish Attack Helicopter Project) will be the LHTEC T-800 (Rolls-Royce/Honeywell venture) as proposed for the US Army RAH-66 Comanche platforms.

The original engine proposed by Agusta-Westland and used on their model, the A-129, was seen as not adequate in performance by the Turkish Armed Forces, hence the usage of T-800 engines by TAI(Turkish Aerospace Industries) on the T-129 choppers.

He further commented that TAI will be producing the complete T-129 platforms, T-800 engines and with the electronics, radar, fire-control suites been supplied by Aselsan, with TAI having the complete modification, production and sales license.

TAI will be the only company producing A-129/T-129, and Italian Armed Forces needs for further platforms and spares will be catered by TAI.

The Turkish T-129 will have various improvements over the Italian counterpart A-129, namely:

-20% increase in performance due to a more powerfull engine, the T-800.
-12 Turkish developed Roketsan UMTAS anti-tank missiles (similar to HellfireII )
-4 Stinger AA missile launchers.
-Turkish developed mast radar with SAR and ISAR capability with a 30km range, (similar to Apache Longbow) allowing detection and missile engagement of land and sea targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle.
-Turkish developed helmet mounted cueing system.

The program is reportedly worth $2.7 billion, with first batch production for the Turkish Armed Forces been 51+ units with an optional 41+ units and export potential to other armed forces of the world.

I guess we can rightly say "pimp my chopper". imp

Cheers.

really decent helicopter has a good weapon payload looks are awesome being produced indigenously has a good radar system and state of the art avionics make it a mean machine really great effort from turkey.thumbs up

 

[Atilla [TR]]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhLi4MCRu0E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhLi4MCRu0E[/ame]

Cool video of the T 129, I think it is the T 129 when it was being tested for the Turkish army.

 

[balamir]

Cool video of the T 129, I think it is the T 129 when it was being tested for the Turkish army.

That is A-129. T-129 is still in the design board. Furthermore, when they arrive, they will belong to army and not the airforce (whose logo is displayed in the video).

 

[eliaslar]

About the T-800 engines the implication is just for the manufacture of the engine in Turkey or it's also a ban in the engine's export to Turkey?

Are there any alternatives to that engine?

 

[mert.kocasari]

T-800 engine manufacturing under licence in Turkey is cleared according to lastest news.

 

[jedigman]

About the T-800 engines the implication is just for the manufacture of the engine in Turkey or it's also a ban in the engine's export to Turkey?

Are there any alternatives to that engine?

The T-800 wont be manufactured in Turkey, But can be bought off the shelf.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=137679&bolum=102

 

[orko_8]

T-800 will be manufactured in Turkey at TEI facilities in Eskisehir. The license is granted. There was a news report about the issue in Flight International recently.

 

[jedigman]

T-800 will be manufactured in Turkey at TEI facilities in Eskisehir. The license is granted. There was a news report about the issue in Flight International recently.

How recent ?

US refuses engine production in Turkey for attack choppers
The US administration has turned down an Italian request for the transfer of technology for US T800 engines to pave the way for their production in Turkey and to be mounted on Turkish attack helicopters intended to be co-produced with Italian Agusta Westland.

Unlike an earlier statement made by Undersecretary Murad Bayar of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) to daily Hürriyet that the Italians had ensured that an export license for production of T800 engines in Turkey at Tusas Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) facilities, local sources close to the project told Today's Zaman that the US has only agreed to extend technical assistance support for the engines, not their production in Turkey.

The engines to be mounted on Turkey’s attack helicopter play an important role in the project since it would increase the efficiency of the helicopters in line with the request made by the Turkish Land Forces Command.

The US refused to sign a manufacturing license agreement (MLA) with Italy for the LH Tech T800 engines but agreed to sign a technical assistance agreement (TAA) that envisages technical support to be given for the engines to be fitted on Turkish attack helicopters, said the same sources.

The SSM and Italian manufacturer Agusta Westland signed an agreement in September of last year for the co-production of 51 A129 attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopters at the Tusaş Aerospace Industries (TAI) facilities in Ankara. The project, worth around $2.7 billion, is codenamed T-129.

The project involves local production of software source codes and hardware as well as the integration of high-technology avionics on the helicopters. But due to delays in both export license approval by the US, as well as the Italian government’s late approval of its company transferring the necessary technology for the production of helicopters in Turkey, the project has not yet begun.

The SSM, believing that the latest technical hurdles have been overcome, plans to make the project effective in the first half of April, soon after the planned meeting of the SSM Executive Committee on April 9, during which the procurement of some arms projects will be decided.

Plans for the acquisition of attack helicopters date back more than 10 years, to when Turkey first decided to buy them as an urgent requirement. The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), allegedly unhappy about the selection of the Agusta Westland model over concerns it would not meet its operational requirements, has urgently sought the transfer of around 10 used Cobras from the US to meet its needs during the increased fight with the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) terrorists.

But US has so far turned down the Turkish offer, due to the unavailability of Cobras, and instead offered armed Black Hawk or possibly Apache attack helicopters.

In the meantime, the Land Forces Command refused an Italian offer for the transfer of its own attack helicopters as an interim measure, despite the fact that the Italian helicopters were selected for co-production in Turkey and were intended to be used by the Land Forces Command.

There has been increased speculation in Ankara that Turkey’s attack helicopter plans with Italy may fail, mainly because the Turkish configuration requests on the helicopters are hard to meet.

 

[orko_8]

First of all it was Flight Global, not Flight International, my bad.

Here is the article I mentioned, date: 31.03.2008, which makes it quite recent, I think.

Turkey gains US approval to build engines for T129 attack helicopter
By Tolga Ozbek
Click Here

The US government has agreed to the use of Rolls-Royce/Honeywell LHTEC CTS800s to power Turkey's AgustaWestland T129 attack helicopters, with Murat Bayar, undersecretary of the European nation's under-secretariat for defence industries, confirming that the engines will be manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries.

Ankara opted to replace the baseline AW129's original R-R Gem 1004 engines due to concerns over their performance under hot and high operating conditions in south-eastern Turkey, and integration of the CTS800 is expected to boost the T129's power output by 20%. Turkey's attack helicopter programme is budgeted at $2.7 billion for 51 aircraft, with an option to acquire a further 41.

TAI will become the only company to produce the AW129/T129, with any further airframe or spares orders placed by the Italian army to be met by the company. It will also offer the model for possible export sale to additional nations. Turkey's Aselsan will provide the T129's electronics, radar and fire-control equipment.
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...pproval-to-build-engines-for-t129-attack.html

By the way, the above article is from Lale Sariibrahimoglu, who is the pioneer of disinformation in Turkish defense industries, e.g.: latest general purpose helicopter project cancellation hoax, as well as off-the-shelf Apache procurement hoax, etc...

 

[jedigman]

Thxs orko,

Lale hanim is a bitch :lul , i wont make the same mistake again by quoting her again.

 

[ambrose]

First of all it was Flight Global, not Flight International, my bad.

Here is the article I mentioned, date: 31.03.2008, which makes it quite recent, I think.

Turkey gains US approval to build engines for T129 attack helicopter
By Tolga Ozbek
Click Here

The US government has agreed to the use of Rolls-Royce/Honeywell LHTEC CTS800s to power Turkey's AgustaWestland T129 attack helicopters, with Murat Bayar, undersecretary of the European nation's under-secretariat for defence industries, confirming that the engines will be manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries.

Ankara opted to replace the baseline AW129's original R-R Gem 1004 engines due to concerns over their performance under hot and high operating conditions in south-eastern Turkey, and integration of the CTS800 is expected to boost the T129's power output by 20%. Turkey's attack helicopter programme is budgeted at $2.7 billion for 51 aircraft, with an option to acquire a further 41.

TAI will become the only company to produce the AW129/T129, with any further airframe or spares orders placed by the Italian army to be met by the company. It will also offer the model for possible export sale to additional nations. Turkey's Aselsan will provide the T129's electronics, radar and fire-control equipment.

By the way, the above article is from Lale Sariibrahimoglu, who is the pioneer of disinformation in Turkish defense industries, e.g.: latest general purpose helicopter project cancellation hoax, as well as off-the-shelf Apache procurement hoax, etc...

This is great news for turkish economy

 

[Teren_UA]

I think that A-129 is a good choice for Turkey. But what do you think about South-African Ruivalk? Probably it would be a good idea for some rich countries, which don't have their own national helicopters, to buy its tecnologies? As I know, South Africa don't have enouph money to build this helicopters after "black" africans worn "white" people in politics.

 

[Gremlin29]

They would be wise to avoid putting radar on this ship and learning some lessons from the the current Longbow users. The radar system is great if you're going to be fighting LARGE armor formations, otherwise it's just another piece of unused equipment that will performance limit the aircraft. So far the Dutch have been the smartest Longbow users, opting for their own RFI and eliminating the radar altogether. All these armament options make great literature for sales points but in reallity aircraft normally settle into a useful weapons loadout and most of the systems it "can" employ aren't ever used, or purchased for that matter.

 

[Todjaeger]

They would be wise to avoid putting radar on this ship and learning some lessons from the the current Longbow users. The radar system is great if you're going to be fighting LARGE armor formations, otherwise it's just another piece of unused equipment that will performance limit the aircraft. So far the Dutch have been the smartest Longbow users, opting for their own RFI and eliminating the radar altogether. All these armament options make great literature for sales points but in reallity aircraft normally settle into a useful weapons loadout and most of the systems it "can" employ aren't ever used, or purchased for that matter.

Out of curiousity, would something like the Longbow radar be useful in coastal or littoral ops? Naval helicopters themselves often have some form of chin mounted sea search radar (Telephonics APS-143 or APS-147, etc). Could a mast-mounted radar aboard an attack helicopter provide a similar search functionality, admitted a shorter-ranged one?

-Cheers