T-129 Attack Helicopter

[s3kiz]

Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries Mr. Murad Bayar has commented on local press (Hurriyet Gazetesi) that the engines to be used on the T-129 choppers within the ATAK-II Programme (Turkish Attack Helicopter Project) will be the LHTEC T-800 (Rolls-Royce/Honeywell venture) as proposed for the US Army RAH-66 Comanche platforms.

The original engine proposed by Agusta-Westland and used on their model, the A-129, was seen as not adequate in performance by the Turkish Armed Forces, hence the usage of T-800 engines by TAI(Turkish Aerospace Industries) on the T-129 choppers.

He further commented that TAI will be producing the complete T-129 platforms, T-800 engines and with the electronics, radar, fire-control suites been supplied by Aselsan, with TAI having the complete modification, production and sales license.

TAI will be the only company producing A-129/T-129, and Italian Armed Forces needs for further platforms and spares will be catered by TAI.

The Turkish T-129 will have various improvements over the Italian counterpart A-129, namely:

-20% increase in performance due to a more powerfull engine, the T-800.
-12 Turkish developed Roketsan UMTAS anti-tank missiles (similar to HellfireII )
-4 Stinger AA missile launchers.
-Turkish developed mast radar with SAR and ISAR capability with a 30km range, (similar to Apache Longbow) allowing detection and missile engagement of land and sea targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle.
-Turkish developed helmet mounted cueing system.

The program is reportedly worth $2.7 billion, with first batch production for the Turkish Armed Forces been 51+ units with an optional 41+ units and export potential to other armed forces of the world.

I guess we can rightly say "pimp my chopper". imp

Cheers.

 

[s3kiz]

Heres a graphical display of the various "lego set parts" that will make up the T-129.

Of course the chopper in the pic is still an Agusta-Westland A-129 International variant with components that will make up the TAI T-129 displayed, bar the T-800 engine.

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

T-129 i think is the right choice for Turkish Army, you found the best you could get with the numbers you want and with the helicopters manufactured in Turkey. I have a hessitation about the RADAR you mention to be similar to the one of the Longbows, is there any technical details about it? I am not quite sure if Turkish companies have the ability to develop something so sofisticated without previous experience, unless this RADAR will be developed with foreign help.
I am sure though about one thing, this helicopter will have much better and newer E/O systems than the AH-64A+ & AH-64D of the Hellenic Army. And that's a really big advantage.

 

[s3kiz]

Regarding the radar capabilities resembling the Apache Longbow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agusta_A129_Mangusta

Aselsan is a high-tech company operating since 1975. If my memory serves me right had about 1500 employees with about 200 of them been engineers, producing a variety of electronic sub-systems and complete turn-key products and solutions. They are in cooperation with many foreign companies from USA, Europe and Israel, and also export a lot of their products to many countries.

You can check them out at:
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/default.asp

Too much technical data are classified, we have had 3 Aselsan engineers working on high-tech R&D, found dead some months ago with their throats cut etc at different dates, may they rest in peace. Espionage?

Cheers.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

WOW the specs are amazing! This is good but I would like too see Turkey too build the personnel carrier helicopters by them selves but the Black Hawk will do good for many years to come.

 

[jedigman]

Ansys subsidiary wins R20m contract from Turkish defence firm

Specialist electro-optics supplier Optocon Systems, which was purchased earlier this year by AltX-listed technology firm, Ansys, has secured a R20-million contract for the supply of the main sighting systems for the Turkish attack helicopter fleet.

Ankara-based Turkish defence company, Aselsan Inc, placed the order with Optocon Systems this week.

Ansys said the initial order was for the development and production of eight main sight electro-optical systems for Turkey’s newly acquired AW129 Mangusta attack helicopters. But there was a potential requirement for an additional 80 main sight systems.

The Italian-designed Mangusta AW129 attack helicopter was recently chosen over the South African-built Rooivalk attack helicopter, developed by Denel, to resupply the Turkish Armed Forces.

Optocon was purchased by Ansys in January this year for R14,5-million.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=128959

 

[s3kiz]

I want to make a correction; TAI's export rights do not include Italy and England, considering the Agusta-Westland connection, but to the rest of the world.

Who wants one....or a few hundred? taking orders. :type

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

According to the wiki link

"Mast radar, similar to that of Apache Longbow but based on IAI/ELTA's (Israel) surveillance and targeting radar with SAR and ISAR capability, has been added on the top of the rotor. The radar can identify land and sea targets from at least 30 kilometres."

Maybe that means that IAI/ELTA have given technology? I haven't heard of any RADAR developed in Israel with the capabilities of the RADAR of the Longbows, even the AH-64D's of the IAF have the american RADAR, i don't think also that the US would give such technology even to closest allies.

Also are there somewhere the technical details of the RADAR of T-129?

 

[jedigman]

According to the wiki link

"Mast radar, similar to that of Apache Longbow but based on IAI/ELTA's (Israel) surveillance and targeting radar with SAR and ISAR capability, has been added on the top of the rotor. The radar can identify land and sea targets from at least 30 kilometres."

Maybe that means that IAI/ELTA have given technology? I haven't heard of any RADAR developed in Israel with the capabilities of the RADAR of the Longbows, even the AH-64D's of the IAF have the american RADAR, i don't think also that the US would give such technology even to closest allies.

Also are there somewhere the technical details of the RADAR of T-129?

The technical details of the RADAR will obviously be kept secret, all we know is, it will have longbow capabilities to 30km. The Turkish UAV (TIHA) will also have a radar with ISAR capability.

 

[s3kiz]

The T-129 Attack Helicopter is expected to turn out to be a very successfull machine and to take its position amoung the best operational attack helicopters in the world.

However theres one thing that I'm curious of. Considering that the T-129 will have a much stronger engine namely the LHTEC T-800, how is that going to change the force dynamics on the airframe, I mean its like bolting a Chevy V8 into a Fiat Bambino...Vrooom!!! :burn Crazy Turks!

Will there be a need for structural and/or material changes to the airframe?

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

I don't want to dissapoint you my friends but although it is a good helicopter how many countries will buy A-129 or T-129? As i know Italian Army is the only user, since 1989, of the helicopter and Turkish Army will be the only one except that to use this. That means that for the last 19 years only one country bought it, Turkey, while even Great Britain and Netherlands which firstly in 1986 were members of an improved version of A-129, named Tonal, finally chosen AH-64 for their needs.
Also i think that A-129 is a light helicopter, if we compare it to AH-64 and Mi-28, and carries half of the armament carried by an AH-64 or a Mi-28,
A-129 : 8 hellfires and similar missiles
AH-64, Mi-28 : 16 hellfires and similar missiles

Also it's light weight, although good for it's agility, might also mean that it has lighter armor, which is probably fatal in Southeast Turkey, with all these light armor and missiles PKK have. A-129 is lighter in weight even from AH-1W, 1 of which PKK shot down during your last campaing in the region.

 

[jedigman]

I don't want to dissapoint you my friends but although it is a good helicopter how many countries will buy A-129 or T-129? As i know Italian Army is the only user, since 1989, of the helicopter and Turkish Army will be the only one except that to use this. That means that for the last 19 years only one country bought it, Turkey, while even Great Britain and Netherlands which firstly in 1986 were members of an improved version of A-129, named Tonal, finally chosen AH-64 for their needs.
Also i think that A-129 is a light helicopter, if we compare it to AH-64 and Mi-28, and carries half of the armament carried by an AH-64 or a Mi-28,
A-129 : 8 hellfires and similar missiles
AH-64, Mi-28 : 16 hellfires and similar missiles

Also it's light weight, although good for it's agility, might also mean that it has lighter armor, which is probably fatal in Southeast Turkey, with all these light armor and missiles PKK have. A-129 is lighter in weight even from AH-1W, 1 of which PKK shot down during your last campaing in the region.

The Turkish T-129 will have various improvements over the Italian counterpart A-129, namely:

-20% increase in performance due to a more powerfull engine, the T-800.
-12 Turkish developed Roketsan UMTAS anti-tank missiles (similar to HellfireII )
-4 Stinger AA missile launchers.
-Turkish developed mast radar with SAR and ISAR capability with a 30km range, (similar to Apache Longbow) allowing detection and missile engagement of land and sea targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle.
-Turkish developed helmet mounted cueing system.

...............

 

[eliaslar]

i have already read what you wrote my friend jedigman, the conclusions i made was about the same helicopter as you mention, also with the T-800 engines.
ok i didn't notice the 12 UMTAS, how will they be carried? why not 16?

 

[Lostfleet]

I am also curious about the survavability of the helicopter. Do you have any specs on its armor and how does its crucial parts as hydraulics, engine, blades resist to damage?

 

[s3kiz]

I don't want to dissapoint you my friends but although it is a good helicopter how many countries will buy A-129 or T-129?

Good point eliaslar, but there can be no dissapointments at all. Because unlike my personal statments of export etc in my posts here, the main aims of the T-129 is to:

1) Have a high-performance, reliable platform that meets the needs of the Turkish Armed Forces for the coming decade+, defending the thracian, aegean, meditteranian, eastern, northern and souther borders, against possible land and sea targets...and soft air targets (considering the 4 Stinger missiles).

2)To have a high-performance platform costing much less than their counterparts with similar capabilities, with some performance distinctions.

3)To have a platform that will allow various Turkish defence industry companies to apply, adopt and perfect their products on a platform with no modification right limitations.

4)To further extend the experience the Turkish defence industry has in designing, manufacturing, testing and integrating various electronic & electro-mechanic high technologies that go into such a product without having to use resources and time to design a chopper platform from zero.

5)With all these points, the possible gains of export are the last aimed gains with this programme. The T-129 will be a great product adressing the needs of TAF and adding experience to the experience of the Turkish defence industry. And considering the narrow attack helicopter market out there we are not building the T-129 for solely or primarily for its export potential, thats the last concern if it can be considered as such, an added bones if it comes, nothing of concern.

.....the 12 UMTAS, how will they be carried? why not 16?

What do you mean by "how will they be carried", obviously the pilot isnt to carry them in his pocket, a new launch pod is made for the new T-129, dont limit your thinking to the A-129, T-129 shares the same chassis, many things are different. Anyway, why 12 and not 16is the same reason as why not 20 or why not 24 or why not 28, needs/performance balance.

I am also curious about the survavability of the helicopter. Do you have any specs on its armor and how does its crucial parts as hydraulics, engine, blades resist to damage?

The hydraulics, blades as you mentioned will have the same armor and thus survivability like the Agusta-Westland produced A-129 that operate in Afghanistan.

The engine is a LHTEC (Rolls-Royce/Honeywell joint venture) T-800 as proposed for the RAH-66 Comanche, with same technical survivability.

A terrorist PKK rocket can easily shoot down a Greek AH-64A-D, weight does not directly mean survivability in the field (beacuse weight sometimes comes from the extra engine and fuel needs etc, extra-fat). Survivability is a mixture of your composite materials, the mission, the pilotage, the terrain, the electronics of the chopper and the capabilities of the projectile and the man behind that projectile been thrown at you.

You think you cant down an AH-64 with a smg?

Anyway I would rather detect, identify, follow you on radar and kill your tank/ship from 30km away then to pilot a heavy-weight chopper (with excess american fat due to cold war design trends), without such capabilities that need to get in close and have the possibilities of been shot down much much easier.

Cheers.

 

[s3kiz]

As i know Italian Army is the only user, since 1989, of the helicopter and Turkish Army will be the only one except that to use this. That means that for the last 19 years only one country bought it, Turkey......if we compare it to AH-64 and Mi-28, and carries half of the armament carried by an AH-64 or a Mi-28,

A-129 : 8 hellfires and similar missiles
AH-64, Mi-28 : 16 hellfires and similar missiles

....Also it's light weight, although good for it's agility

True. Italy will be using the Agusta-Westland A-129 and Turkiye will be using the TAI T-129. How many countries offered the same what Italians offered to Turks? South Afrcian Denel offered the AH-2 Rooivalk but one of the reasons why it wasnt chosen was its weight, a point you mention many times as a "live-or-die" point. It was heavier, bigger than what the Turkish Armed Forces needs, not everyone likes chubbies.

There is no way can you compare a T-129 to a AH-64 or Mi-28. Both AH-64 and Mi-28 are a product of "cold-war-era battle field mentality", their design is to be used in mass tank battles etc.

And its like this:

T-129 : 12 Roketsan Umtas (similar to hellfire2)
A-129 : 8 Hellfire (or similar)
Ah-64/Mi-28 : 16 Hellfire (or similar)

They are like a 1960s Chevrolet with big taillights, huge trunk you can fit a fridge into, and a big engine and thirst only a petrol sheik can pay for. The T-129 is like a Mitsubishi with variable timing, twin-turbos, electronic suspensions, high tech gadegtry and all, lighter/smaller than the Chevy but faster and with more road-holding (yeah i like cars).

Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Ahh M. Ali.

Cheers.

 

[Stimpy75]

i think eliaslar means with the 12 missiles is,that while the outer pylons carry 4 missiles each,why do the inner pylons carry only 2 missiles each,guess it´s because of the wheel carriage,when fitting the four missiles on the inner pylon,they could hit the carriage when beeing fired.

 

[Yasin20]

who care if it dosnt carry a lot of weapons at least it will get its job don for the turkish armed forces thats all it needs something that can get the job don thats the last time im saying it

 

[s3kiz]

Dont ruin the threads.

The same thing at this link, as quoted below, applies in this post too:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7495&page=3

it would suck if they didnt chose that designe i mean it will

Yasin why will the new Turkish mbt named Altay, that we are yet to see, thats undergoing and many of us dont have extreme details of its technology, capability and even what it looks like "suck" if the private concept you are referring to shown in this thread as an example was not to be the Altay?

What do you know of the developments of the Altay Tank?

What do you know of the multitude of the design concepts we see in the Turkish media including the one shown here?

How do you compare what you know and claim that it will "suck"?

Instead of posting coments just to post a comment and raising your post count pls contribue with your intellectual assest.

I'm sure its not just me as a Turk getting annoyed with such non-sensical postings but anyone and everyone that clicks on a thread to read/learn/get an insight into something they are interested in.

I dont mean to be rude, and I apoligize if reading this is a bit harsh, but this is for all of us, pls lets all pay some attention to this.

(im sorry i guess im grumpy today)

Cheers.

 

[eliaslar]

Thank you stimpy75 and as you correctly understood, i meant why it doesn't carry 4 missiles in each pylon.
also s3kiz about the Chevy's and the Mitsubishisi's i really think that when A-129 was developed there was still a cold war era, with all those mass tank developments, so i think that a design of a post cold war era would be RAH-66, which was cancelled...it had about the same weight with A/T-129 but it was to be used mainly as a scout helicopter and not a helicopter that would change the things in the battlefield. Maybe the you have chosen to put all those good stuff in an Peugeot 106 rallye.