European Navy

[Jon K]

Well, sorta, just with weapons and sensors

Sensors would be a hull-mounted sonar (bought en-masse), and a relatively cheap medium-range radar, whole thing tied in with the overall battlespace network.
Effectors - pair of twin or triple ASW torpedo tubes, 4- or 8-cell VLS with 16/32 ESSM, reserved space for wartime mounting of SSM.

The intention wouldn't be to fight off a Bear pack with AShM of course, but against any raiders that make it through the primary lines of defense, the above should be enough. Especially in numbers.

What I'd like to see for convoy escort would be following:

-Drone Blimp with radar and good IRST to operate as an AEW and EW device when not working under EW conditions and with IRST to provide a passive detection capability. Perhaps two blimps to provide option of using active measures without revealing convoy position.

-Area AA capability (ie. SM-6 / ASTER xx)

-Point defense capability onboard merchant ships (containerized MICA or AMRAAM + 3D radar)

-AUV's with towed array which can be deployed by heavy helicopters to work in flanks or in advance of the convoy. USV's might be option but I'm not sure about small USV's being really viable in very rough seas.

-Containerized anti-torpedo device capability to be deployed onboard merchant ships.

-Heavy ASW helicopters. Heavy for long endurance and ability to carry drone payload.

-USV's and some CB-90 style patrol boats for dealing with asymmetrical surface threats.

-Mothership(s) for operating area AA, heavy ASW helicopters, drones and patrol boats.

 

[kato]

Far too big, crowded, pricey in my opinion. Looks like a magnet for submarines too, and a rather viable target for some attention of hostile ASuW efforts in general.

Operating helos on the flanks and in advance of a convoy? 24/7? That would need a whole carrier - minimum 12 helicopters to handle that amount, 15 would be more likely.
Classic 70s-style Sea Control Ship in that regard.

Drone blimp - just noting that it would interfere with helo operations. Even if it's just hanging there (and it won't it will be dragged - we're making speed after all), the non-static lines between blimp and ship will seriously hamper helo approach vectors to the ship, and will need constant watching.

CB90s/USVs - useless on the high seas. Once you get into the littorals, locally stationed forces can handle that part in wartime. Just put a couple MGs on each merchant (remember, wartime - arming is legal), and that's handled anyway.

Point defense capability on merchants - nice thought (bit pricey), but that's more born out of necessity, isn't it? The necessity to cover the merchants without having ships on the flanks.

Area AAW - quite seriously, there's a navy outside these escorts. If a certain region, or approach path for a convoy needs AAW to that extent, they'll either reroute the shipping line, try to eliminate the threat, or assign AAW ships on watch for the region.

 

[Jon K]

Far too big, crowded, pricey in my opinion. Looks like a magnet for submarines too, and a rather viable target for some attention of hostile ASuW efforts in general.

Compared to smaller escort(s)? Sure, but then with larger hull comes the capability to utilize larger weapons, helos and drones. A warship is always an target, whether it is better to have several easier targets compared to smaller number of harder targets is of course matter of discourse.

Operating helos on the flanks and in advance of a convoy? 24/7? That would need a whole carrier - minimum 12 helicopters to handle that amount, 15 would be more likely.

I did not mean the necessity of operating helos in ahead and flank of the convoy, rather using organic air assets as a way to deploy passive sonar AUV's. I think deploying a 2500 ton ship mainly to deploy sonar coverage around convoy (as it probably operates so far from the convoy it's point defense abilities don't significantly help the convoy) does not seem to be cost effective if it can be done some other way.

Drone blimp - just noting that it would interfere with helo operations.

Blimp, not an aerostat which is tethered. Blimp would significantly enhance radar and visual (and IR) horizon.

CB90s/USVs - useless on the high seas. Once you get into the littorals, locally stationed forces can handle that part in wartime. Just put a couple MGs on each merchant (remember, wartime - arming is legal), and that's handled anyway.

That's one capability which can be deployed in case of need with the larger ship. Escorting tankers in Persian Gulf, for example, would benefit from small patrol ships.

Point defense capability on merchants - nice thought (bit pricey), but that's more born out of necessity, isn't it? The necessity to cover the merchants without having ships on the flanks.

Area AAW - quite seriously, there's a navy outside these escorts. If a certain region, or approach path for a convoy needs AAW to that extent, they'll either reroute the shipping line, try to eliminate the threat, or assign AAW ships on watch for the region.

For air defense I'd believe area AAW is much more cost effective than use of several specialized point defense ships, especially if the threat scenario includes just a few missiles lobbed into convoy instead of massive attack. It takes time to deploy short-range missile ships into threat sector.

Area AAW can also hit launching aircraft before they can launch their ASM's and it can also be used to hit ASM's while they're in their travel height.

Ideally I think air defence containers should be deployable via mothership resources, EH-101, for example, can lift some 4 tons which is probably enough.

 

[rewreward]

OPERATIONAL COMBAT SUBMARINES


FRANCE
4 SSBN "Le Tromphannt" (1997-today)
2 SSBN "L'INFLEXIBLE" (1976-1985 - Scrapping as `Le Triomphant' class enters service)
6 SSN "RUBIS" (1983-1993 First four modernised to standard of last two)

UK
4 SSBN "VANGUARD" (1993-1999)
7 SSN "Trafalgar" (1983-1991 Being modernised with new combat management, sensors and cruise missiles)
4 SSN "SWIFTSURE" (1974-1981 Being modernised with new combat management. Sensors and cruise missiles.)

GERMANY
12 SSK "Type 206A" (1973-1975 Modernised early 1990s with new sonar, combat management and periscopes)
4 SSK "Type 212" (2003-today Hybrid diesel-electric/AIP (fuel cell))


ITALY
4 SSK "Improved `Sauro'" (1988-1995 Three modernised late 1990s. One being modernised)
2 SSK "Sauro" (1979-1981 Modernised early 1990s)
2 (+2) "Type 212 Salvatore Todaro" (2005 - Hybrid diesel-electric/AIP (fuel cell)


GREECE
4 SSK "Type 209/1100" (1971-1972 Modernised 1993-2000)
4 SSK "Type 209/1200" (1979-1980 To be modernised between 2004-2014 with AIP and new combat management)
1 (+3) SSK "Type 214" (2005-2009 Hybrid diesel-electric/AIP (fuel cell)

SPAIN
4 SSK "Agosta" (1983-1986 modernized late 90s)
2 SSK "Daphne" (1973-1975)
2 SSK " Scorpène S-80" (in order - AIP )

SWEDEN
3 SSK "Gotland" (1996-1997 Hybrid diesel-electric/AIP (fuel cell)
4 SSk "Vastergotland" (1987-1990 , two will install AIP)

DENMARK
1 SSK "Kronborg --Swedish Näcken (A 14)" (1980)
3 SSK "Type 207 `Kobben" (1965 -Modernised 1992-93. New sonar)
2 SSK "Narhvalen" (1970 -Modernised 1993-98. New sonar and electro-optic mast)

NORWAY
6 SSK "Ula' (Type 210)" (1989-1992 Combat management system being upgraded)

Powerful Naval Forces of Europe


Aircraft Carriers:

1x Charles de Gaulle class (France)
3x Invincible class (UK)
1x Principe de Asturias class (Spain)
1x Garibaldi class (Italy)

Cruisers:

1x Jeanne d'Arc class (France)

Assault ships:

1x Ocean class (UK)
2x Albion class (UK)
2x Mistral class (France)
2x Foudre class (France)
3x San Giorgio class (Italy)
2x Galicia class (Spain)
2x Hernan Cortes class (Spain)
1x Rotterdam class (Netherlands)

Destroyers:

8x Type 42 (UK)
2x Horizon class (France)
2x Tourville class (France)
2x Cassard class (France)
7x Georges Leygues (France)
2x Horizon class (Italy)
2x Durand de la Penne class (Italy)
4x De Zeven Provincien class (Netherlands)

Frigates:

15x Type 23 (UK)
4x Type 22 (UK)
5x La Fayette class (France)
6x Floreal class (France)
4x Artigliere class (Italy)
8x Maestrale class (Italy)
3x Sachsen class (Germany)
4x Brandenburg class (Germany)
8x Bremen class (Germany)
4x Alvaro de Bazan class (Spain)
6x Santa Maria class (Spain)
5x Baleares class (Spain)
4x Descubierta class (Spain)
8x Karel Doorman class (Netherlands)
2x Wielingen class (Belgium)
4x Thetis class (Denmark)
3x Vasco da Gama class (Portugal)
3x Joao Belo class (Portugal)
2x Oliver Hazard Perry class (Poland)
10x Kortenaer class (Greece)
4x Hydra class (Greece)

Corvettes:

10x Aviso class (France)
8x Minerva class (Italy)
6x Visby class (Sweden)
3x Niels Juel class (Denmark)
3x Baptista de Andrade class (Portugal)
4x João Coutinho class(Portugal)
1x Kaszub class (Poland)
4x Tarantul class (Poland)
5x Thetis class (Greece)
2x Grisha III class (Lithuania)


Nuclear tactical submarines:

4x Vanguard class (UK)
4x Triomphant class (France)

Nuclear attack submarines:

4x Swiftsure class (UK)
7x Trafalgar class (UK)
6x Rubis class (France)

Diesel Submarines:

4x Type 212A (Germany)
8x Type 206A (Germany)
6x Nazario Sauro class (Italy)
4x Agosta class (Spain)
4x Daphne class (Spain)
4x Walrus class (Netherlands)
3x Gotland class (Sweden)
4x Vastergotland class (Sweden)
3x Daphne class (Portugal)
2x Type 209 (Portugal)
8x Type 209 (Greece)
1x Kilo class (Poland)
4x Kobben class (Poland)

 

[kato]

Couple notes on that list. Oh wait... a lot of notes.

• only one Horizon DDG has yet been commissioned (Andrea Doria).
• JdA is technically a (wartime) helicopter carrier with ASuW capability, not a cruiser.
• there's a second Rotterdam now, although it's considerably bigger.
• Greece operates about eleven 4000-4500t LSTs.
• the Descubiertas have been reduced to OPV service, the F70 are being replaced by the F100.
• the Danish Thetis are not frigates, they're (gun-armed) OPVs.
• all Danish submarines have been deleted from the fleet.
• all Portuguese Joao Belo have been decommissioned.
• all Belgian Wielingen have been decommissioned.
• all Spanish Daphne submarines have been decommissioned.
• there are 9 active Avisos, not 10.
• there are 4 active Visby, not 6.
• there are 13 active Type 23, not 15.
• the two Danish Absalons are missing.
• Invincible is mothballed.
• Portugal doesn't have any Type 209, and only one active Daphne. To replace it, two "Type 209PN" are on order, which are actually Type 214 submarines.
• Your numbers of Type 206A are conflicting. There are 7 currently active.

I bet i still missed a couple.

 

[ASFC]

Karel Doorman is wrong

The French do not have 6 SSBNs

Britain no longer has 11 SSNs.

And Romania, Bulgaria are missing (Romania has two Type 22s and the Maraseti, Bulgaria has at least one Weilingen with another one on the way)

 

[swerve]

Cavour was commissioned last Thursday, & though FOC isn't scheduled until next year, I'm sure she could be pressed into service pretty damn quick in an emergency.

2nd Dutch Rotterdam - Johan de Witt - is nearly as big as Albion & Bulwark.

Daring, Forbin, & Chevalier Paul are on trials.

 

[gvg]

On the Karel Doorman's:
2 have gone to Chile.
1 has gone to Belgium, with another one going this week or next week.
2 going to Portugal. One this year, one next year.
2 are to be kept by the Dutch.

If you list the Zeven Provinciën under destroyers, the Alvaro de Bazan's and Sachsen's should be in that category as well, or put the Zeven Provinciën under frigates.

Vastergötland subs:
2 updated and relaunched as Södermanland class
2 sold to Singapore

And there's always debate about adding the British RFA's.
I would definately include the Bay class (4x).

(And if we're talking european and not EU, then Norway is missing.)

 

[Gladius]

About the five spanish Baleares... Kato is right, they are being replaced by the Alvaro de Bazan's class...

Only one (F-74 Asturias) is still commissioned, but was put on extended readiness in Ferrol...
About the others: One (F-73 Cataluña) was sunk the last year during Sinkex-07, another (F-72 Andalucía) is awaiting the same destiny. The lead ship of the class (F-71 Baleares) wil be sunk to create an artificial reef. And the last one (F-75 Extremadura) is slated to be converted in Museum Ship.

The Descubierta class remain active but five of the six ships were converted in OPVs... The Diana (new numeral M-11) was converted to serve as the command & support ship for the spanish MCMV flotille (six MCMV of Segura class).

SPAIN
4 SSK "Agosta" (1983-1986 modernized late 90s)
2 SSK "Daphne" (1973-1975)
2 SSK " Scorpène S-80" (in order - AIP )

Again, like Kato said before correctly... all Daphne (Delfin class) were decommissioned. At this moment Spain only have the four Agosta (Galerna class).

With respect of the S-80s, firstly they are not Scorpenes but S-80A a newer submarine developed by Navantia after the rejection of the Spanish Navy of the Scorpenes offered by DCNS-Navantia for the Spanish S-80 Programme... And secondly the S-80's are four not two (two being built now by Navantia-Cartagena shipyard with two more already ordered).

 

[contedicavour]

I'm arriving late, most mistakes or old data have already been corrected. On the diesel sub list at first you see the 2+2 U212 for Italy but then they disappear in the list at the bottom of the post.

The Duilio DDG (2nd Horizon) is sailing already doing sea trials but won't be handed over to the Navy until early 2009.

Cavour is already testing flight operations with Harriers and EH 101s, so I agree with Swerve's assessment.

You might want to add a "oceanic OPVH" list, ranging from the Floreal in France to our Comandanti class.

cheers

 

[kato]

On the diesel sub list at first you see the 2+2 U212 for Italy but then they disappear in the list at the bottom of the post.

Should also be 4+2 U212 for Germany, second batch is building.

You might want to add a "oceanic OPVH" list, ranging from the Floreal in France to our Comandanti class.

I'd call it "light frigates", and put anything in there that is a non-ASW-/AAW-specific patrol ship. Starting with the Lafayettes, they already have that designation in the French Navy too. The heavier OPVH could go in there too. Say anything from 1500 to 3500 tons.

I'd also strike a number of ships from the list as simply "not combat-worthy". Basically, anything that is rapidly approaching 50 years, even with upgrades.Such as JdA (whose CVGH role is only on paper), the Greek Niki/Thetis/Type 420 subchasers, the Polish Kobben/Type 207 subs bought from... Norway, was it?
Because otherwise we could just as well include a number of museum/mothballed ships that could be modified to sail within weeks/months. And that's a big list, especially for e.g. the French or British fleets.

 

[Dr Freud]

I'd add any ship without sam's and helo to the "not combat-worthy" list, including the brand new stealth ship visby, which hasnt been properly equipped yet.

 

[kato]

Nah, they're still good for stuff. Patrol mostly, and ASuW.

 

[Dr Freud]

I was just looking at the nansen class, and it really look like a fine ship, i would just like to add, say 8 long range missiles,(perhaps the amraams the norwegians are allready using as sam) in place of the shorter range sea sparrow, in case a plane get too nosey. A really fine escort ship, alltho (or perhaps because) intended as a subhunter.

Visby will be a fine ship if/once it get equipped as was planned.

 

[kato]

Was bored for a minute there...

Age of ships / designs (first of class commissioned):

Same list as before, without the submarines; also deleted the "eastern" ships. OPVs only the ones that are "frigate-derived", no PBOs and such.

60s
CGH: Jeanne d'Arc class (France) replacement under consideration
LST: Hernan Cortes class (Spain) (as Newport class) to be replaced by BPE
FFG: Wielingen class (Belgium) replaced
FFL: João Coutinho class(Portugal) to be replaced by NPO2000
OPV: Thetis class (Greece) (used as gunboats)

70s
FFG: Oliver Hazard Perry class (Poland) and Santa Maria class (Spain) (by design as OHP derivative)
FFG: Lupo/Artigliere class (Italy) to be replaced by FREMM
FFG: Type 22 (UK) replacement under consideration
FFL: Niels Juel class (Denmark) to be replaced by PS
FFL: Baptista de Andrade class (Portugal) to be replaced by NPO2000
FFL: Aviso class (France) to be replaced by FREMM
OPV: Descubierta class (Spain) to be replaced by BAM?

80s
CVL: Invincible class (UK) to be replaced by CVF
CVL: Principe de Asturias class (Spain)
CVL: Garibaldi class (Italy)
LPD: San Giorgio class (Italy) replacement under consideration
DDG: Type 42 (UK) to be replaced by Type 45
DDG: F70 Cassard class (France) to be replaced by FREDA
DDG: F70 Georges Leygues (France) to be replaced by FREMM
DDG: F67 Tourville class (France) to be replaced by FREMM
DDG: Durand de la Penne class (Italy) replacement under consideration
FFG: Karel Doorman class (Netherlands)
FFG: Maestrale class (Italy) to be replaced by FREMM
FFG: Bremen class (Germany) to be replaced by F125
FFG: Kortenaer class (Greece) replacement under consideration
FFG: Type 23 (UK) replacement under consideration
FFL: Minerva class (Italy)
OPV: Thetis class (Denmark)

90s
CVN: Charles de Gaulle class (France)
LPH: Ocean class (UK)
LPD: Rotterdam class (Netherlands)
LPD: Galicia class (Spain)
LPD: Foudre class (France)
FFG: Brandenburg class (Germany)
FFG: Floreal class (France)
FFG: La Fayette class (France)
FFG: Vasco da Gama class (Portugal)
FFG: Hydra class (Greece)
FFL: Visby class (Sweden)

00s
LHD: Mistral class (France)
LPD: Albion class (UK)
DDG: Horizon class (France)
DDG: Horizon class (Italy)
DDG: De Zeven Provincien class (Netherlands)
FFG: Alvaro de Bazan class (Spain)
FFG: Sachsen class (Germany)

 

[harryriedl]

Was bored for a minute there...

Age of ships / designs (first of class commissioned):

Same list as before, without the submarines; also deleted the "eastern" ships. OPVs only the ones that are "frigate-derived", no PBOs and such.

60s
CGH: Jeanne d'Arc class (France) replacement under consideration
LST: Hernan Cortes class (Spain) (as Newport class) to be replaced by BPE
FFG: Wielingen class (Belgium) replaced
FFL: João Coutinho class(Portugal) to be replaced by NPO2000
OPV: Thetis class (Greece) (used as gunboats)

70s
FFG: Oliver Hazard Perry class (Poland) and Santa Maria class (Spain) (by design as OHP derivative)
FFG: Lupo/Artigliere class (Italy) to be replaced by FREMM
FFG: Type 22 (UK) replacement under consideration
FFL: Niels Juel class (Denmark) to be replaced by PS
FFL: Baptista de Andrade class (Portugal) to be replaced by NPO2000
FFL: Aviso class (France) to be replaced by FREMM
OPV: Descubierta class (Spain) to be replaced by BAM?

80s
CVL: Invincible class (UK) to be replaced by CVF
CVL: Principe de Asturias class (Spain)
CVL: Garibaldi class (Italy)
LPD: San Giorgio class (Italy) replacement under consideration
DDG: Type 42 (UK) to be replaced by Type 45
DDG: F70 Cassard class (France) to be replaced by FREDA
DDG: F70 Georges Leygues (France) to be replaced by FREMM
DDG: F67 Tourville class (France) to be replaced by FREMM
DDG: Durand de la Penne class (Italy) replacement under consideration
FFG: Karel Doorman class (Netherlands)
FFG: Maestrale class (Italy) to be replaced by FREMM
FFG: Bremen class (Germany) to be replaced by F125
FFG: Kortenaer class (Greece) replacement under consideration
FFG: Type 23 (UK) replacement under consideration
FFL: Minerva class (Italy)
OPV: Thetis class (Denmark)

90s
CVN: Charles de Gaulle class (France)
LPH: Ocean class (UK)
LPD: Rotterdam class (Netherlands)
LPD: Galicia class (Spain)
LPD: Foudre class (France)
FFG: Brandenburg class (Germany)
FFG: Floreal class (France)
FFG: La Fayette class (France)
FFG: Vasco da Gama class (Portugal)
FFG: Hydra class (Greece)
FFL: Visby class (Sweden)

00s
LHD: Mistral class (France)
LPD: Albion class (UK)
DDG: Horizon class (France)
DDG: Horizon class (Italy)
DDG: De Zeven Provincien class (Netherlands)
FFG: Alvaro de Bazan class (Spain)
FFG: Sachsen class (Germany)

are there any chances of Spanish OHP adding to Polands fleet in 10-20 years. also whats you definition of 'easten' ships because the Wielingen class is being used by Bulgaria

 

[kato]

are there any chances of Spanish OHP adding to Polands fleet in 10-20 years.

Not if Poland finds money for decent ships by then (not that the Santa Marias aren't decent, but in 10-20 years they'd be up to 35 years old).

also whats you definition of 'easten' ships because the Wielingen class is being used by Bulgaria

From his list: Polish Kaszub. Romanian Marasesti. Lithuanian Grishas. All Tarantuls.
Hmm, don't think there are much more than that in EU/NATO navies actually.

Anyway, what i wanted to show is that when near-future replacements (next 10 years) are considered, the list becomes a lot shorter, especially in regard to the older ships.
Once the Type 22s are gone from the RN (around 2018?), the only 70s design still in place would be the 8 Spanish and Polish OHPs. By then likely considerably upgraded. Type 22 could see some future in Bulgaria, but that's about it for Europe. Only major 80s type to survive post-2017/2020 or so for now are the Karel Doormans.

Depending on e.g. Greek choice we could see up to 40 FREMM hulls active in the 2020s. Depending on British choices (C1), up to ~18 derivatives of the Type 45 hull. And once you group together the MEKO 200s, and sort out the various TFP project hulls (3x Sachsen, 4x LCF, 6x F100, 5x Nansen to some extent), there isn't much left over at all.
Same thing for amphibs, once you sort out the Schelde Enforcers.

 

[gvg]

Age of ships / designs (first of class commissioned):
.........
Only major 80s type to survive post-2017/2020 or so for now are the Karel Doormans.
.........

When you list the ships by their age/design and use the commissioning date to determine age, you'll have to move the Karel Doorman's to the 90's. Althought the first of class (HNLMS Karel Doorman, now BNS Leopold I) was laid down in '85 and launched in '88, commissioning didn't happen until '91 (and lasted 'till '95).

 

[Salty Dog]

I was just looking at the nansen class, and it really look like a fine ship, i would just like to add, say 8 long range missiles,(perhaps the amraams the norwegians are allready using as sam) in place of the shorter range sea sparrow, in case a plane get too nosey. A really fine escort ship, alltho (or perhaps because) intended as a subhunter.

Visby will be a fine ship if/once it get equipped as was planned.

The RIM-162 ESSM (Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile) has twice the range (50 km) of the NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System) (25 km firing the AIM-120C). Each Nansen class can carry 32 ESSM.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMvRcyfxPmE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMvRcyfxPmE[/ame]

 

[kato]

I'm currently working on assembling a ship listing for a WEU Navy, in the style of Andrew Toppan's Hazegray: World Navies Today.

Mostly sourced through Jane's, Netmarine, the relevant national navy websites.

I still have a couple (...dozen) points with problems, in particular regarding planned programs, mixed and unsorted:

• I read (somewhere) that Greece plans additional HSY-56A. How many, and what would these replace? (the Ashevilles? the Nikis?)
• future of Greek FACs? will the Type 148 be retained?
• The Portuguese LPD issue is still rather unclear in my opinion. MRD-10k? Specs?
• Italian LHD: err, additional to a LPD replacement? what was it, that LHD-20k thing?
• Cavour's primary function is ASW with 8 EH-101, correct?
• Status of the Horizons? Fitting out, trials, commissioning dates?
• I have FREMM/FREDA at 2 building, 12 ordered, 7 planned (for France & Italy). Correct?
• S-Class (Elli, Kortenaer, Bremen): I have 6 slated for upgrade, 4 to decom, 8 to upgrade and be replaced in mid-2010s. correct? will the upgraded Ellis receive ESSM in Mk29?
• No concrete replacement design for Artigliere, Minerva, Aviso yet, right?
• Combattante III/IIIa to be upgraded - will armament be unified (ie all Exocet)?
• Will Italy retire the two Sauro III when the ordered Type 212A commission?
• Any concrete design in Belgium for the Godatia replacement? What about Spain's disarmed and modified Descubierta in the same role, replacement planned?
• Greek Zubrs: Any additional in the books? (there used to be plans for another four)
• Are all five LFC-2005 being built? Planned commissioning dates?
• Esploratores are used exclusively with MFO force, correct?
• How close is the relationship between Sandown and Seguro?
• Argus replacement?
• Italy plans two improved Etnas to replace Strombolis, correct?
• Any replacement plans for the two Axios/Rhein class tenders (60s), or the Evros/Schwarzwald ammo tender (1956!) in Greece?
• Any replacement plans for Contramaestre Casado (1953!) in Spain?