Gripen - Red Flag

[Grand Danois]

If you with this mean a moment of luck, yes, i agree.
I also agree plasma at this time seem premature, and it will also increase IR signature, i dont really believe in the whole active thing.

Another thing, someone (cant remember who or where) said an infrared seeker can only search a narrow field.
While that was true on older IR, its not a problem on IIR. page 9 article 22

Also applies to IIR. It is the huge volume (area) to scan at range that is the limiter. Just as propagation is an issue. IIR is best lofted, or used for close in [in the relative sense] surveillance/detection of significant emitters of IR.

Some of what this document suggest may have a walk on Earth in a few decades, but is immature, very expensive to implement, and limited in usage. Some is just crap.

The Russians want VLO on their PAK-FA, despite they are touting the end of stealth through their technologies all the time... food for thought, eh? Do they consider stealth compromised in their framework of knowledge or not...?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Another thing, someone (cant remember who or where) said an infrared seeker can only search a narrow field.
While that was true on older IR, its not a problem on IIR. page 9 article 22

Any article that contends that IIR has a significant capability over IR is skating on cavalier interpretations of the truth. They are being more than cavalier if they are comparing it to contemp seeker systems.

4 things which still affect IIR - no matter what the brochures and books may lead you to believe.

field of view
focal length/plane
discrimination
distance

there is no comparison between contemp hybrid IR solutions and contemp seeker systems.

useful in a multi-seeker role, but less than competitive in a contemp run off.

again, my 2c worth. (and I've seen all the marketing brochures as well as the other attention getting data given to identified decision makers), so I still remain to be convinced by real "proof of life" evidence.

 

[Dr Freud]

There's no such thing as self cancelling.

I think i used the wrong term, i should have specified destructive interference!
when two equal waves are 180 degree out of phase, they will cancel each other out by Amplitude A=A1-A2, If A1=A2, the result is zero, wich i called self cancelling. there is no active jamming here.
But RAS is obviously so complicated so the only plane i can think of using it would be B2.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I think i used the wrong term, i should have specified destructive interference!
when two equal waves are 180 degree out of phase, they will cancel each other out by Amplitude A=A1-A2, If A1=A2, the result is zero, wich i called self cancelling. there is no active jamming here.
But RAS is obviously so complicated so the only plane i can think of using it would be B2.

The French Rafale's SPECTRA EW suite supposedly uses this technique, although how effective it is remains to be seen. Against a steady frequency it should be quite effective, but against an agile beam AESA radars which are transmitting on various fequencies at once and changeing almost instentainiously the system is going to have a hard time keeping up. 1500 T/R modules could be conceavibly transmitting on 1500 individual fequencies at the same time, in addition to changieng fequencies allmost instentainiously. This is the essence of AESA LPI capability and it is going to be very hard to effectively "cancel". In order to do so you would have to match the incomeing beams + various frequency's and continually match them precicely. Not an easy feat by any means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_SPECTRA

 

[Dr Freud]

Im pretty certain its still easier to jam then to build RAS for every possible EM wave in the entire EM specrum, at least until cloaking through nanotechnology are up.
In fact, i think everything in this world is easier, especially if u want the thing to fly too.

 

[Dr Freud]

Ok! it sorta dried up, but i got something new.
I'm under the impression Su27+ family have a really long range radar, primarily because lots of juice!
I'm under the impression a Su27+ has a range 3 times that of gripen!

How much of a problem will it be to increase the output of Gripens radar at least twicefold ? and why arent saab doin it ?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Ok! it sorta dried up, but i got something new.
I'm under the impression Su27+ family have a really long range radar, primarily because lots of juice!
I'm under the impression a Su27+ has a range 3 times that of gripen!

How much of a problem will it be to increase the output of Gripens radar at least twicefold ? and why arent saab doin it ?

Certain persons argue that the size of a radar is the apparent determinate of capability.

Certain persons have stated that because Sukhoi fighters possess a 1000mm class radar array and "X" type Western fighter only possesses a 700mm radar array, the Sukhoi is obviously far superior...

This is a ridiculously simplified claim and is not back up by any real thought or logic. No software discussion. No computer processing capability discussion. Nothing.

IF they were as outclassed as some people suggest, why are the REAL designers not doing anything about it?

Perhaps the problem, is NOT an actual problem at all?

 

[caprise]

How much of a problem will it be to increase the output of Gripens radar at least twicefold ? and why arent saab doin it ?

Hi!
They are probably working on it...I guess.

There are some Ericsson patents describing ways to increasing radar range. In short they divide the transmitting patterns and periodically double energy output on some radar pulses to increase range among other things(data communications).
They also describe ways to let radar beams from different aircrafts coincide with eachother to get more performance:

hp://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5907301-fulltext.html
hp://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5920279-fulltext.html
(Replace hp with http)
(I have seen later dates on the swedish patents pdf's so they may have been updated?)

I´m no radarexpert or on any other matter(just like to read patents sometimes...) so this is maybe common knowledge that everybody use (Russians also?)? But I also guess that there are more in the drawers.

BTW, to connect to the thread title...Gripen will visit this years Red Flag, week 28-31.
hp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3113622&postcount=634
(Replace hp with http)

Regards C

 

[Grand Danois]

That actually reminds me... I read a couple of weeks ago that the Swedish military wanted to deploy Gripens to Afghanistan...

 

[Dr Freud]

we have 3 physical means to increase range: 1/increase output 2/ increase size of radar receiver and 3/reduce noise.
And then we also have signal processing, wich partly connect to noise reduction.
That way to increase output looks promising caprise.
i have an idea how to increase radar receiver to the equal of the width of the plane, why not put receivers at the wingtips of the plane ?
in fact, why not remove the receiver in the front altogether, and cram in as powerful emitter as possible, and have the receiver spread out all over the place

 

[Grand Danois]

That should be one of the reasons why there are "canards" simulating the wings of the JSF on the CATBIRD (Cooperative Avionics Testbed).

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w31/honkhntr/resizeAlliance120507JRBFTW120707034.jpg

 

[Dr Freud]

Man that has got to be the reason, looks really weird with them canards on that plane!
I have a question about the word "avionics"
is it a word that include electronics and sensors ?

or perhaps it means aviation electronics

Its probably not possible to build in receivers in an already existing wing, but on wingtips and pylons, i cant see whats keeping them from doin it..

There are some other benefits too, it increases accuracy by on a small scale making triangulation, and it should on a small scale increase detection range of LO aircraft even for a single plane.

 

[SlyDog]

Dr Freud: "or perhaps it means aviation electronics"

Yes indeed > info

I think many engineers working hard to achieve to construct AESA-RADAR as a "smart skin". This skin should be applied on surfaces like forward edge of the wings ( they have to head forward to some extent in any way ). Around the nose there are applied a lot off T/R modules also - but these "looking" down, upward and to the sides. But i guess it takes a while before we are there :roll2

 

[gf0012-aust]

in fact, why not remove the receiver in the front altogether, and cram in as powerful emitter as possible, and have the receiver spread out all over the place

maybe you need to look at the F-22's leading edges again....

 

[Salty Dog]

Dr Freud: "or perhaps it means aviation electronics"

Yes indeed > info

I think many engineers working hard to achieve to construct AESA-RADAR as a "smart skin". This skin should be applied on surfaces like forward edge of the wings ( they have to head forward to some extent in any way ). Around the nose there are applied a lot off T/R modules also - but these "looking" down, upward and to the sides. But i guess it takes a while before we are there :roll2

With nano-technology this can be accomplished.

Boeing is testing a 2-pound radar aboard a UAV. http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Boe...r_Aboard_ScanEagle_Unmanned_Aircraft_999.html

 

[SlyDog]

Salty Dog: Amazing ...only 2 pound...est 1 kg. Good resolution too...

"The new SAR operates on the X band, mapping an area in a "stripmap" mode at a range of one kilometer, at resolution of 35cm (14x14")."

LINK

 

[caprise]

That should be one of the reasons why there are "canards" simulating the wings of the JSF on the CATBIRD (Cooperative Avionics Testbed).

Could be wrong but to me those "canards" seems to be the leading edge control surfaces of the (CATBIRD) JSF flight control system (Together with the trailing edge ditto placed aft CG).

Haven´t heard anything about "smart skin materials" emitting radiowaves on this aircraft(if that was what you had in mind). F-22 was supposed to have something like that, If I remember right (side looking radar), but it was cancelled (or put on hold)?

Real operational system of this kind is some years away, I think (no bucks no Buck Rogers).

C.

Edit:

With nano-technology this can be accomplished.

Boeing is testing a 2-pound radar aboard a UAV.

Impressive, but is that really a "smart skin" radar?

"Smart” skin materials based, variously, on polymers, dendrimers, carbon nanotubes, and/or other tailored molecular components are being developed for use as conformal coating surfaces of mechanical structures, including those of aircraft, to impart enhanced functionality to the coated surfaces. As used here, “smart” signifies that a material so characterized exhibits a useful physical response (e.g., a change in color) to a change in some aspect of its environment (e.g., temperature or pressure) or to a control or actuation signal. It is envisioned that smart skin materials could be used for diverse purposes, including sensing surface flow conditions and altering surface optical properties to enable detection, concealment, or display.

hp://www.defensetechbriefs.com/content/view/1014/34/ (Replace hp with http)

 

[Grand Danois]

Could be wrong but to me those "canards" seems to be the leading edge control surfaces of the (CATBIRD) JSF flight control system (Together with the trailing edge ditto placed aft CG).

Haven´t heard anything about "smart skin materials" emitting radiowaves on this aircraft(if that was what you had in mind). F-22 was supposed to have something like that, If I remember right (side looking radar), but it was cancelled (or put on hold)?

Real operational system of this kind is some years away, I think (no bucks no Buck Rogers).

C.

It's an avionics test bed - not a flight control test bed.

 

[caprise]

It's an avionics test bed - not a flight control test bed.

It´s my understanding that FCS is part of a aircrafts avionics. As mentioned above avionics is ALL electronic systems onboard...

C.

Edit: hp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics (Replace hp with http)
Yes I know it´s wikipedia but I think they are somewhat "correct" this time.

 

[SlyDog]

caprise: "Smart skin" is an expression FOI (Swedish Defence Research Agency) use in a research report, in a try to "predict" technological development for the future.

There is an abstract in english at page 5. Some picture also in the document - look at page 17, 18 & 19.

LINK

Edit: FOI, not FMV, sorry