Gripen - Red Flag

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Dalregementet

New Member
The purpose of inviting (paying) Swedish forces to US-led exercises is to get an idea of the possibilities of foreign available technology, when competently led. Furthermore it should be from a nation, where war - even by the furthest streaches of imagination - even mine - is not a contigency to be given serious thought. This in order to ensure that the exercise opposition is not deliberately incompetent or incapable due to the fear of exposing true tactical ability. Sweden fits that bill very well

The setup of the exercise will be made so that the invited will perform well. Not so much to pander to egoes, but to test the assumptions of the exercise - generally with a build up to a critical point, where success is touch and go. Off the top of my head I can think of two historical examples;

1. An exercise in Denmark, when the Eagle was young. The Eagle was allied to begin with; but after an hour it was made hostile. The conclusion was that the airdefence of Denmark was not immediately in need of F-15 support and was not gravely influenced by the Eagle as an opponent.

2. A Red Flag with the participation of Vulcans - which to begin with was not doing well, the assumption had to be changed to normal British standard -i.e. flying so low that deployment of the undercarriage would mean taxiing. This must have given valuable information as to the capability of the successor,Tornado, when used according to the proper tactics.

Ironically: The better the Gripen performed, the less likely the Brazilian order, as the US will not allow technologically advanced weapons in South America - and has made that clear in no uncertain, but diplomatic, terms.

The Gripen is in my view not a realistic option for Denmark:

1. The need for range, as the important missions are far from Denmark - and I do not mean Afghanistan. The Baltic countries have forsaken a proper AirForce, as it is more cost effective to let them train light infantry. Air Defence is provided in turn by other Nato countries.

2. The need to operate in a Nato context - the Gripen could do that; but the F-35 has an unfair advantage by design. The F-22 is a tactical reserve to be drawn on, if the F-35 are interfered with to any noticable extend. As long as F-35 plinks enemies and clean the air to expectation, there is no need for the F-22.

3. The need for replacement of attrition losses in war. One of the huge advantages of the F-16 during the cold war was that ANG units could reinforce Danish, Norwegean, Dutch and Belgian forces without much ado.

4. The benefit of double operational lifetime. May I remind You: The competitors to F-16 (the Mirage F1 and Viggen) have both been withdrawn from serious operational use years ago. The F-16 still performs nicely - having had a facelift and a belly tuck now and then.

Finally the producers of Gripen, Taifun and Rafael are not incompetent and their politicians are not morons; but they do not have access to the engine technology which is crucial in fighter design.
The best example of a good airplane with a dubious engine is the F-14. To perform adequately it used every trick in the aerodynamic book, ending up being a maintainence nightmare.

I don´t agree with many of your conclusions.

First - the US already knows about the Swedish defence material and how it's being used. The US-Swedish cooperation regarding defence equipment is very extensive, much more extensive than the US/Danish cooperation in these matters. This is of course logical since Saab has a vast portfolio of products in it´s portfolio. Such a vast portfolio doesn´t exist in any other nordic country. The US is also a big customer for Swedish defence products, so in that context, the US test a lot of Swedish products and systems. Just for your information, the US "agressor" units use Swedish air control systems and has done so for at least 20 years.

Your conclusion that the better Gripen performs, the less likelyhood that the US will approve that Gripen is being sold to Brazil is...eccentric. This has happened once that I know of. Saab wanted to sell Viggen to India but that was blocked by the US. The US didn´t give approval to supply the engine to India. I think Saab has learnt from that and I don´t think the US want to take that path again. If so, I think Saab will quickly switch to EJ200 and that would not be good business for GE. The US has tried to use that card when it comes to air to air missiles - the result is that all European manufacturers go for European air to air missiles, i.e. Meteor and IRI-T, instead of US. I think the lesson the US learnt in that case was tough - years of abuse with "well, if you don´t buy our plane, you wont be allowed to buy sidewinders and amraam/sparrow" - now two deadly missiles exist, Meteor and IRIS-T, that the US would have been more comfortable if they didn´t.

Regarding range and the Baltic countries, your arguments are not convincing. The Baltic countries do lack fighter jets but they dont lack air fields. It is also quite many alternative air fields in Poland, Sweden and Finland.

I guess that most other Nato countries will have a problem in operating in a Nato context since most of them wont have F35??? Not convincing... :confused:

Attrition - sure if that would be relevant? :rolleyes:

Operational life time - historical data that is not relevant. Why don´t you bring up the long bow next time? Other technologies like special coating and special paints might be just as effective to distort radar signals like the airframe design and then you don´t have to compromise the aerodynamics.

How thick or thin do a coating have to be in order to be able to distort a radar signal? I think the advances in this field will progress in a very quick pace.

Regarding the F14 example, it´s irrelevant since Gripen uses F404/F414 engines. The maintenance costs for Gripen is best in class. It could be that Sweden uses engines from UK or France in the future but it is not on the table today.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Finally the producers of Gripen, Taifun and Rafael are not incompetent and their politicians are not morons; but they do not have access to the engine technology which is crucial in fighter design..
Can you explain this? Last time I looked, Rolls-Royce was the single largest contributor to the Typhoon engine. Snecma (Rafale engine) also has some expertise in the field.
 

Ths

Banned Member
answers

Swerve: The Europeans do not have access to the engine of the F-35. I am implying that the F-35 is a generation younger than the RM12.

Dalregimentet: Former Swedish PM Göran Persson was adressed by Ex-president Carter in connextion with a Nobelprice ceremony and explicitly told, that delivery of Gripen to Brazil was in direct contavention of US policy in the area. So much for my eccentricity.
Those Baltic airfields might be lost in case of war. The Baltic nations have in themselves no strategic depth, that depth is provided for by Nato.

Attrition in war is a very pertinent matter.

The historical comparison is more than relevant: The F1 and Viggen were up against the F-16. The descripancy between technologies was similar.
When Draken was bought it was competing with the Mirage V and Tiger II, where engines were more comparable.

The Baltic is a completely different theater of war - quite apart from the cental European. The Central European Theater is build up around Germany.

Denmark knows from experience the high price of maintaining Swedish fighters.
 
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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Swerve: The Europeans do not have access to the engine of the F-35. I am implying that the F-35 is a generation younger than the RM12.

Dalregimentet: Former Swedish PM Göran Persson was adressed by Ex-president Carter in connextion with a Nobelprice ceremony and explicitly told, that delivery of Gripen to Brazil was in direct contavention of US policy in the area. So much for my eccentricity.
Those Baltic airfields might be lost in case of war. The Baltic nations have in themselves no strategic depth, that depth is provided for by Nato.

Attrition in war is a very pertinent matter.

The historical comparison is more than relevant: The F1 and Viggen were up against the F-16. The descripancy between technologies was similar.
When Draken was bought it was competing with the Mirage V and Tiger II, where engines were more comparable.

The Baltic is a completely different theater of war - quite apart from the cental European. The Central European Theater is build up around Germany.

Denmark knows from experience the high price of maintaining Swedish fighters.
Wrong, Rolls Royce is developing the alternate engine for the F35 and designed a large part of the STOVL systems in the Aircraft. Particularly the forward lift fan.
 

caprise

New Member
Former Swedish PM Göran Persson was adressed by Ex-president Carter in connextion with a Nobelprice ceremony and explicitly told, that delivery of Gripen to Brazil was in direct contavention of US policy in the area.
Hi Ths! This statement made me curious...I saw that you posted the same, in here two years ago. Not that I´m specially eager to defend the former prime minister...but above quote would imply that Sweden wouldn´t export t South America, which I can´t find any proof of.

I remember that the left party in Sweden was/is against Gripen Export to South America and used the moratorium from Carter (and others) in the debates. They even launched a goverment bill, that was rejected, by parlament(Utrikesutskottet), on all accounts.
http://www.riksdagen.se/webbnav/index.aspx?nid=410&typ=mot&rm=1998/99&bet=U406
http://www.riksdagen.se/webbnav/?nid=3120&doktyp=motion&bet=1998/99:U406
(In Swedish)

In Gripen news from 1998 there´s also this passage about Gripen Export to South America(it's about Chile but I think also was/is applicapable to Brazil):
...Not surprisingly, questions
arose about the prospective
Chilean purchase of the Gripen,
The Swedish Prime Minister
and Government have faced criticism
from, among others, former US President
Jimmy Carter for creating “goodwill”
for the Gripen and seeming to be
favorable to re-armament in the South
American region.
In fact, the Swedish Prime Minister
does not see a problem with selling the
Gripen to Chile. Persson emphasizes
that the Chilean people are entitled to
decide their own security and defense
policies.
Relations between the two
countries are close and Chile is a growing
export market for Swedish companies.
http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/B6AC635C-3417-437D-B3BE-61D4788008AB/0/gripen_news_1998_01.pdf
(Page 3)

Not that it is uncommon for politicians to make 180 degree U-turns but in this case I couldn't find such manouver.
Do you have a link perhaps?

Edit: added Link
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Swerve: The Europeans do not have access to the engine of the F-35. I am implying that the F-35 is a generation younger than the RM12...
1. In conjunction with your previous post, this implies that you think that only the F-35 engine is "the engine technology which is crucial in fighter design". Really? Also, as has been pointed out to you, Rolls-Royce not only has access to the technology of F-35 engines, but has developed large parts of it.

2. Yes - so is the F414 (which Volvo has access to some of the technology of, designing & manufacturing some components), the M88 & the EJ200. The EJ200, at least, is newer & more advanced than the F414. Your statement implies that you believe that nothing in Europe is more advanced than Volvos upgraded F404. Why do you think that?
 

Ths

Banned Member
If you say so. Swerve

As to the Göran Persson information. I saw it on TV some years back - as far as I recollect There was an interview with Ex-president Carter.

It has for long been apparent that Sweden has been in the doghouse with the USA.

1. Göran Persson was once called to a meeting in the White House. The nearer details were not published. My interpretation was that the USA wanted to know the details about Swedens commitment to the Baltic Nations.

2. Carl Bildt was up for an important post in the UN - it was blocked by USA. I believe Atasari got. CNN broadcast.

3. Yes I have my théory of the Palme murder.
 

JohanGrön

New Member
It has for long been apparent that Sweden has been in the doghouse with the USA.
Not correct, that was in the last millenium if true at all. The recent invitations to the Red Flag excercises proves you wrong if nothing other.

Sweden has been a covert NATO member since the 1950's, but you couldn't make a swedish politician confess to that fact even under the barrel of a gun.
 

ProudSwede

New Member
I'm new here and registered today since some of the comments here pissed me off. I chose the name "ProudSwede since some of us might still be proud of who we are and what we have attained when it comes to military technique for example. As a precaution I should perhaps add that I haven't read all the pages, just page 1 to 5.

So, now to business: as a historyteacher I have to correct my Danish fellows as to when Skania became Swedish: 1658 to be exact. To the Danes the very humiliating peace of Roskilde.
Furthermore: Sweden has never been under Danish rule for 400 hundred years, hardly at all to be honest. For all of you who aren't from Scandinavia I'll just inform you that the nordic countries formed a union 1397, primarily to protect themselves from the norhtgerman Hanse (a powerful trading guild) as well as claiming power from the kings back to themselves (ie the high nobility). The first ruler became Queen Margareta who had both Swedish and Danish ancestry. The counties ruled themselves (that was the aim of the nobility in Sweden; to be able to have as much independence from the king/queen as possible whoever the ruler was) more or less until 1521 when Sweden broke free from the union. And during that time it had ruled itself during several periods, so the Danish rulers - who thought they should rule - actually ruled in Sweden for say about 50 years... Hardly 400 huh?

Also,there was NO ethnical clensing after the overtaking of Scania 1658... First Swedish government and king ruled very "lighthanded but since the Scanians had had farreaching selfrule when under Danish rule, and also felt more like Danes than Swedes, they soon built a resistance-group called Snapphanar - who created a lot of problems for the Swedish government. Thus for a couple of years Swedish government ruled more harshly and punished those who didn't cooperate, but it isn't fair nor true to say it was ethnical cleansing. Neither Snapphanar nor Swedish forces in Scan behaved well during those years between 1658 and 1676.
Enough of historylessons!

I don't really understand why Ths and Grand Danois are so hostile against Sweden, Swedes and swedish technology - it isn't very Danish is it? Danes are usually easygoing and openminded but your messages seem smallminded...
I'm sorry if we've done anything to irritate you..
Basically: if JAS Gripen is such a crap why don't you build your own aircraft then?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I don't really understand why Ths and Grand Danois are so hostile against Sweden, Swedes and swedish technology - it isn't very Danish is it? Danes are usually easygoing and openminded but your messages seem smallminded...
I'm sorry if we've done anything to irritate you..
Basically: if JAS Gripen is such a crap why don't you build your own aircraft then?
1) I'm not hostile against Swedes. However, it seems some Swedes have a hard time accepting criticism of the Gripen when it is held up to the reqts of certain potential customer countries, e.g. it comes up against the F-35. Which leads to contested topics.

Too sensitive.

2) I'm not dissing Swedish technology, if you read my catalogue of posts, you'll notice I'm a fan of Swedish land systems, e.g. CV90, Archer, Carl Gustav, Arthur, etc.

3) Why build your own, when our industry will never be able to build a jet that can meet the needs of the 21st century battlefield? Better to procure and be part of a wider industrial complex (SAAB does the same with the Gripen).

Now get back on topic. Gripen at Red Flag.
 

ProudSwede

New Member
Red Flag July/Aug 08

I know you probably left the topic long time ago but I had to make some things clear when it had to do with history at least. And as I wrote, I also knew that I'd only read 5 of 27 pages....
Yes you perfectly right that it's the right move to cooperate with other industries/countries in order to develop fighters and other military weapons, at least for smaller countries like Sweden. :)

As to Red Flag, I guess we should be discussing Red Flag -08 at Nellis a couple of weeks ago (the exercise ends in a couple of days I think). THAT was the reason I ended up on DT.com because I wanted to know how the Swedes and Gripen performed. Anyone who knows?

And finally, we can talk forever about statistics and facts in aviation, range performance (yes I know that too has its charm) :p: but in my opinion we get the real answers in exercises like Red flag.

Anna -Proud swede :cool:
 

JohanGrön

New Member
As to Red Flag, I guess we should be discussing Red Flag -08 at Nellis a couple of weeks ago (the exercise ends in a couple of days I think). THAT was the reason I ended up on DT.com because I wanted to know how the Swedes and Gripen performed. Anyone who knows?
Hi Anna, please read the whole thread (and especially my outstanding posts :))

Here you will find url:s to mil.se and another Gripen thread (just for news)
Red Flag 08-3 tidbits
The Red Flag training has now ended and the swedish contingent is back home.
(h)ttp://www.flygvapnet.mil.se/index.php?c=news&id=41624


Cheers

(Why do I wish you were named Mary?!?)
 
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