Dear eliaslar:
1)You talk about a “pontian-Greek” genocide by Turks, but when you read objectively the link (wiki) you give as evidence, you find out that it was a population exchange between Greece and Turkiye, you deported majority of Turks from Greece, and we did the same with Greeks in Turkiye. If that’s genocide you are equally responsible for it. So easy to raise a finger and point at someone "guilty" without looking into the mirror.
“In 1923, a population exchange between Greece and Turkey resulted in a near-complete elimination of the Greek ethnic presence in Anatolia and a similar elimination of the Turkish ethnic presence in much of Greece.”
“The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey is the first large scale population exchange, or agreed mutual expulsion in the 20th century. It involved some two million people, most forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from homelands of centuries or millennia, in a treaty promoted and overseen by the international community as part of the Treaty of Lausanne. The document about the population exchange was signed at Lausanne, Switzerland in 1923, between the governments of Greece and Turkey. The exchange took place between Turkish citizens of the Greek Orthodox religion established in Turkish territory, and of Greek citizens of the Muslim religion established in Greek territory.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
2) You talk about the tradgic murders of Turkish-Armenian journalist Mr. Hrant Dink and the 3 Christian missionaries like its an everyday event. Many in the “west” dont know that Mr. Hrant Dink was a strong advocate of Turkiye-Armenia peace, always calling upon both countries to build a friendlier relations, this was something the Armenian diaspora (hanchacks and dashnacks) did not like very much, the Armenian diaspora uses and is fuelled by hate and anything and everything anti-Turkish which is a lucrative economy for them also, so the ideas put forward by Mr. Hrant Dink werent welcomed by them.
Sure a Turk (-citizen) pulled the trigger, but Armenian secret services are behind his murder, the 17 year old kid that was caught on tape and charged is named O. Samast, the word making up his surname does not have Turkish language rules to it, it is non Turkish word, i suspect that its an abbreviation of Samast-ian “-ian” is the equilavent of John-son (english), Ahmet-oglu (turkish) etc. He was just used.
No one in Turkiye cheered the murder of Mr. Dink, everyone protested including patriots like me because we know it, including the 3 Christian missionary murders are work of foreign services, giving them a chance to do international propaganda “Turks kill Christians-Armenian” etc etc like you are doing now eliaslar. Would the murder of an ethnic minority in Turkiye serve me a Turkish patriot? no, will it serve Greece and Armenia? yes.
www.tallarmeniantale.com
3) It seems no matter how much evidence I bring forward you seem to follow your Greek state policy to ethnically cleanse the Turkish minority in your country even in 2008. Against all the evidence I provided, even the 27 march 2008 ruling of European Court of Human Rights pointing out Greek persucution and violation of human rights of its Turkish minority, by holding on to a wiki-link that has the title “Muslim minority in Greece” you come to assumptions that you have the right to deny the presence of Turkish minority in Greece, however if you cared to read the the same wiki article it talks of this “muslim minority”
been Turkish and the Greek objections to recognize them as that, you seem to miss that part, selectively showing what suits you:
“Another controversial issue was Article 19 of the Greek Citizenship Code, which allowed the government to revoke the citizenship of non-ethnic Greeks who left the country. According to official statistics 46,638 Muslims (most of them being of Turkish origin) from Thrace and the Dodecanese islands lost their citizenships from 1955 to 1998, until the law was non-retroactively abolished in 1998.
The final grievance is the Greek government's restrictions on the usage of the terms "Turk" and "Turkish" when describing the minority as a whole. A number of organizations, including the "Turkish Union of Xanthi", have been banned for using those terms in their title.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_minority_of_Greece
Greek human rights abuses over its minorities:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/
http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece908.pdf
http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece924.pdf
http://www.echr.coe.int/echr/
http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/vi...in=hudoc-pr-fr
4) You talk about the hard times of democracy in Turkiye yet interpret the military juntas of Greece between 1967-197 as “normal”, just “a black stain” nothing more, dramatizing Turkish un-democratic past events and playing down Greek un-democratic past events.
The Greek military junta of 1967-1974 is more than “a black stain”. It resulted in the Greek invasion of Cyprus island, overthrowing the Cyprus Government co-founded by Turkish and Greek Cypriots there, the Greek junta ethnically cleansed the islands Turks into %3 percent which they used to live in 30% of the island and attempted genocide on the Turks which was one of the reasons why Turkiye interviened as one of the three guarantoor-state of this island states soveregnty when the international community did nothing. All because of the “stable democracy” in Greece that created juntas, invasions of soverign countries and ethnic cleansing of Turks. “A black stain” indeed.
http://www.ataa.org/reference/trnc/genocide_trnc.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967-1974
5) You said that :
“I think that some days ago, Turkish police attacked Kurdish people who were celebrating the Newroz, 2 people were killed in this attack. Very interesting i didn't know that people in Turkey don't have the right to celebrate their customs and religions.”
Yet you forget to realize that Nevruz is actually a celebration of spring by all Turkish people from mongolia to the balkans for 5000 years, persians and kurds celebrate it as well. Its not like “
people dont have the right to celebrate their customs and religions” like you put it, the Nevruz celebration are been used by the internationally recognized seperatist marxist terror organization PKK, whos head was caught by American and Turkish secret agents in the Greek Embassy in Nairobi with a Greek-Cypriot passport on him.
PKK has a handfull of support locally, specifically buying few children and women in protests like this where they chant pro-terror organization slogans, with civilian dressed PKK members vandalising cars/shops and aim for a spectacle. Their aim isnt celebration, but a programmed propaganda and tactics to get a civilian collision. They are trying to get other people who had enough of them including Kurds to attack them so they can start a riot. Yet you cant see that on your side of the Aegean because Turkiye in turmoil is a Greek state/cultural policy.
Instead of trying to make smart claims like “
i didn't know that people in Turkey don't have the right to celebrate their customs and religions.” You should search on how your state supports and fosters international terrorist that operate against your Nato ally, causing the deaths of 30 000 babies, children, women, doctors, teachers, civil servants and all. How the leader of PKK was caught by American and Turkish secret service personel
in Greek Embassy in Nairobi
with a Cypriot Greek passport on him, while he was deemed an international terrorist by UN. How the Greek army officers were in Syria and North of Iraq
training PKK terrorist to blow up shopping centers, schools, tourist resorts in Turkiye killing anyone and everyone, whatever age and ethnicity, a considerable number of people killed by PKK are of Kurdish ethnicity.
While we have this going on in Turkiye, people in Greece are been put in prison for
calling themselves Turk or opening a civil organization with the name Turk in it.
Interesting isnt it, on one side (Turkiye) we have a country against which you (Greece) support a terror organization, have it try to create civil unrest and call any reasonable effort been made by that country to bring law and order as undemocratic, and on the other hand we have (Greece) that puts people in prisons for calling themselves Turks.
Before you go ahead and start making propaganda that “Turkiye bans Nevruz” etc etc, inform your self of what it is before you try to use it for your political ambitions against Turks.
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=221680
http://www.discoverturkey.com/english/kultursanat/h-nevruz-ortaasya.html
http://www.nevruzdc.com/nevruz.html
http://www.nevruz.gen.tr/nevruz.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norouz
http://www.byegm.gov.tr/on-sayfa/nevruz.htm
6) Oppression of Macedonians:
Your obviously strıng denial claims is continued with these your words:
“
About the macedonian minority as you mention it, of course there is no macedonian minority in Greece”
Wrong!
Greeks call the Macedonians under Greek rule as the “Grekomani” that’s is “
pretending to be Greek, not Greek”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grkomani
“It should be noted that the Greek claims are a new political development. Just a few years ago the Greeks preferred not to use the name Macedonia at all. The Macedonian news magazine (Skopje, February 15, 1992, pp. 20-2 1) claims that "there were periods in Greece when use of the name 'Macedonia' was avoided with administrative measures.
After the Balkan wars (191213) the area of Macedonia under Greek rule was called ... the 'New territory' while the Ministry in Salonika was called the Ministry of Northern Greece. Whence such zeal to pre-empt the names 'Macedonia' and 'Macedonian' today when so recently they avoided them as the devil avoids church?"
“The name Macedonia was not used until the second century B.C., and it was applied to the country by the Macedonian king, not by a Greek. The term "Macedon' and the expression "land of the Macedons" were used long before that time, though there is debate about the origins of the word "Macedon."
Philologists are not certain of its derivation, though Greeks prefer to think that the word comes from Greek. In any case, neither the ancient Macedonians nor the ancient Greeks thought that the Macedonians were Greek; thus the name the Macedonians used for their land must surely belong to them alone.”
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/shea.html
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/timeline.html
http://faq.macedonia.org/history/11.13.html
http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=203&Itemid=9
http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=gr...nt_limit=20,20
http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece945.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UT...ns%22+Poulton&sig=NobKDU7Unvc2AqCZLCn0vSM5VIo
http://www.florina.org/html/2000/2000_discrimination/2000_discrim_docs.html
http://www.florina.org/html/2006/macedonian_language_primer.html
http://www.florina.org/html/2007/2007_greek_irredentism.html
http://www.florina.org/html/2000/2000_minority_language/2000_minority_language.html
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/begalci/begalci_mhrmc_2003.html
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/begalci/begalci_mainpage.html
Macedonians trying to get their right back from the Greek government:
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/begalci/begalci_resolution_2005.html
Greece's Continued Blacklisting of Ethnic Macedonians:
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/begalci/begalci_mhrmc_2003.html
“Exiles bring Greek guilt home” Scotland on Sunday:
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/begalci/exiles_bring_greek_guilt_home.html?id=985302003
Macedonians Once Again Denied Democratic Rights by Greece:
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/begalci/begalci_3_2003.html
As a Turk, no Turk will claim to be as pure as an angel, we are not, no nation, no human is, Greeks are not either. But your personal and national attitude towards history and politics seems like you hold yourselves above everyone else.
It would be a better world if the Greek attitude was to get off the hig-pedestal they see themselves on and see that they too have just as many “dirty sheets” as anyone else, especially just as much as the people they see as the enemy and build a national sense of beign on the hatred they breed against them.
For nearly a century in all around the world we had Greek migrants, getting educated, making money, improving themselves while assimilating into the local countries they live in, been active in the media and politics. I dont have the exact numbers but 11 million population of Greeks within Greece is less than the total Greek migrants outside Greece, if I remeber correctly Australian city Melbourne is home to more Greeks then Greek capital Athens is.
This diaspora of Greece has allowed them to explain the shared events of old and near regarding Turks, Macedonians subjectively, a one way road, Greek road, only presenting their view of history and events generation after generation, they managed to create generations of Greeks that get an “alergy” when they hear the words “Turk” or “Macedon” and also managed to create a scewed perception amoung westerners about Turks and Macedons. This was all because of the uncomparable largeness of Greek migrants in foreign countries compared to Turkish or Macedonian migrants.
Both Turkish and Macedonian migrants have started to occur but only recently in the last 30 years, been between 20-60 years behind Greek migration, who already hold more influential status then Turks and Macedonians combined, and multiple folded, in USA, Australia etc.
All this has resulted in a deep rooted psyche where everything and anything viewed/presented by Greek side is dominant, been the hero, at the same time as been the sufferers, completely innocent and angelic. But the reality couldnt be further from the truth. Its not going to happen, but with time the Greeks and those who got used to listening just their stories will come to realize that there is another version to the stories.
And perhaps one day, eliaslar and likeminded people and the Greek government will come to realize that there is an ethnic Turkish and Macedonian minority in Greece they until that point had rather not see, talk about, or think about, but only oppress and ethnically try to cleance them of their identity.
You said:
"I trully would like this to end here and this topic go back in it's normal route. There is no point in arguing about who is better or who is right, i hope you agree with that."
Yes so do I, but then why do you continue bringing up false arguments, previously you stating there were "no (Tatar) Turks in Greece" which I proved you wrong in the previous posts with facts, which you didnt like resulting in you to post the above writing of your with lots of Greek national propaganda of 3rd rate stuff trying to literally do "who is better", which you are requesting we dont do.
Thats not what I did, I presented facts about questions/false claims that came up by Chrom, you got it all wrong, and jumped in and you seem to be the only contender in the "who is better" race.
And lastly:
Quote: Originally Posted by eliaslar:
"I don't have the intention to start another war here, but some things must be put in order. I don't want to blame you but you may don't know some things, of course a man cannot know everything."
-Whos "
order"? or you mean by what
you "like"? That I can understand, but can not accept, I'm all for reason & justice, not "putting in order", according to who? Not a good approach.
-And I never claimed to "know everything" and never will, but when I state something I make sure im certain of it.
You try to do that too.
That way the thing you
try "put in order" will be
trutfull, just and good for world peace.
Not just pleasuring the "Greek sides' " ego & national politics.
Hoping you will see that too, we hope, for a better world.
Cheers.
I was shocked. So Georgia would fall very fast but they have strong backing from the U.S so the U.S would end up backing Azerbaijan and Georgia and no matter what you say U.S has a upper hand vs Russia. Also there are Turkish people in Georgia (DO not fight this with me I am a Turkish, but my family came from Georgia from Kazakhstan, I still have family there), Also everyone knows that when you invade a neighbor to get to another nation the nation you invaded might use Gurilla Tactics (Hit and run) to dry up your supply lines to the front line. Not to mention the part of Russia that is next to the black sea get there overseas goods through the Istanbul Bosporus and with this line cut that might slightly dry out the supplies.