Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[kato]

It means there are four fuel booms (one forward-midships rig, one aft-midships rig, as seen on the linked site).

Depends on purpose mostly. A lot of (modern) multi-product replenishment ships have a single rig to retain more container space on the deck. Ships that don't carry any TEU on the deck usually have two rigs. Note that the ship here doesn't carry much in the way of TEU - there might be space for 16 or so TEU between the forward rig and the forecastle with the crane, but that's next to nothing.

Refueling from astern pretty much hasn't been done since the 50s or so btw.
It's pretty susceptible to parting lines, and additionally to lines being caught in the ship's screws. Abeam refueling was introduced after WW2 (by the British first), and is the standard pretty much since then.

 

[Salty Dog]

It means there are four fuel booms (one forward-midships rig, one aft-midships rig, as seen on the linked site).

Depends on purpose mostly. A lot of (modern) multi-product replenishment ships have a single rig to retain more container space on the deck. Ships that don't carry any TEU on the deck usually have two rigs. Note that the ship here doesn't carry much in the way of TEU - there might be space for 16 or so TEU between the forward rig and the forecastle with the crane, but that's next to nothing.

Refueling from astern pretty much hasn't been done since the 50s or so btw.
It's pretty susceptible to parting lines, and additionally to lines being caught in the ship's screws. Abeam refueling was introduced after WW2 (by the British first), and is the standard pretty much since then.

Understood mate. However, that still does not show how four ships will simultaneously RAS!

Taking away the astern RAS, you will only have one ship to port and one ship to starboard, period!

How do you get four?

By the way, there are only two STREAM stations on each side for cargo or fuel, never both at the same time at the same station. You never use the crane for RAS, it's for inport/at anchor cargo handling only.

Have a look:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/unrep.htm

 

[aaaditya]

Fleet Tanker details,

From Fincantieri website

thanks very much kams,any chance of getting the info about the s-1000 submarines and other vessels.

i believe that the indian navy should have gone for heavier (36000 ton) displacement vessels.

 

[kato]

How do you get four?

Anchor them at just the right positions. It only says "it can refuel" there, not "it can refuel underway".

By the way, there are only two STREAM stations on each side for cargo or fuel, never both at the same time at the same station.

Ah, but that depends on the ship's outfit.

 

[Salty Dog]

Anchor them at just the right positions. It only says "it can refuel" there, not "it can refuel underway".



Ah, but that depends on the ship's outfit.

There is no point in constructing a ship for FAS/RAS unless you will CONREP at sea. If you refuel at anchor, just use a barge, it`s far cheaper. Still, the Indian Navy may have a refueling-at-anchor requirement.

Besides, even at anchor, trying to get the fueling stations to line up between the transfer ship and receiving ship, will most likely allow only one ship at a time per side to refuel.

The Fleet Tanker on Fincantieri website shows two FAS/RAS stations per side. The US Navy Supply class AOE has six FAS/RAS stations on each side.

 

[Salty Dog]

Here's a link to information on the ETNA class FSV also built by Fincantieri. It's smaller in size and displacement to the IN Fleet Tanker.

The ETNA FSV is able to "be in position to refuel the squadron, including the air wing of the carrier, and also provide full logistic support in terms of repair workshops, spare parts, ammunition replenishment and supplies.

ETNA is also capable of performing civil protection roles at times of crisis. The ship has high autonomous capacity to provide electrical power, fresh water and prepared meals and also has fully equipped hospital and medical facilities on board."

An interesting difference between the ETNA and the IN Fleet Tanker is the ETNA is twin screw whilst the IN ship just has one. The Italians probably have a higher speed requirement than the Indians.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/etna/

 

[Salty Dog]

Just now the temperature in Severodvinsk is -5 C, the average is -16, but it isn't unusual to have temperatures below -40 C, with record low of -45C. So adjustment might be hard. As for language differences etc. the Finnish shipyards are working with a lot of Polish welders who don't speak anything but Polish and still turning out ships respected for their quality.

But, in my humble Finnish opinion, I can't understand how anyone can survive, or at least enjoy life at over +35 except in Sauna / Banya...

You can see the ex-Gorshkov sitting "on land" in the Russian shipyard on Google Earth. Fly to 64°34'35.08"N, 39°48'57.79"E

 

[kay_man]

5) italy is one of the countries invited to bid for the 5000+ton displacement p-17a frigates of which 7 are likely to acquired.

i thought the p-17a (project 17 ) was a destroyer not a frigate. the project p17 is the kolkata class destroyer, a stealthy craft tht is going to replace the rajput class destroyer, being built indegenously.

 

[kato]

i thought the p-17a (project 17 ) was a destroyer not a frigate.

Around that displacement, it seems not to matter anymore these days what you call them. The destroyer definition has been largely pushed to the 7000+ ton section.

 

[aaaditya]

5) italy is one of the countries invited to bid for the 5000+ton displacement p-17a frigates of which 7 are likely to acquired.

i thought the p-17a (project 17 ) was a destroyer not a frigate. the project p17 is the kolkata class destroyer, a stealthy craft tht is going to replace the rajput class destroyer, being built indegenously.

the kolkata class destroyer is the p15a class ,a follow on ,enlarged and stealthier version of the p15 delhi class.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

US-made Jalashwa a lemon: CAG
15 Mar 2008, 0202 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: Has the US sold a lemon to India in the shape of the huge amphibious transport warship USS Trenton ?

Yes, says the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) about the 37-year-old ship rechristened INS Jalashwa by Indian navy.

Being the first-ever American warship to be inducted by the navy, INS Jalashwa has been brandished as a visible symbol of the rapidly-expanding strategic embrace between India and US ever since it was bought for $50.63 million in 2006-2007.

The latest CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Friday, however, has rapped the UPA government for buying the ‘ageing ship’ in a ‘hasty manner’ without ‘proper physical assessment’ and technical evaluation of its sea-worthiness.

Considering that an officer and five sailors were killed on board INS Jalashwa just last month, due to leakage of toxic hydrogen sulphide from sewage pipes, the CAG report will only fuel the criticism over its procurement.

The navy, however, pooh-poohs such talk. "Accountants can pick holes in virtually everything. We got the ship cheap. It gives us immense strategic sea-lift capabilities since it can transport 1,000 soldiers or material over long distances," said a senior officer.

The CAG report holds that since the ship has already outlived a major part of its service life, which is envisaged to be 40 years, the decision for its acquisition 'does not appear to be prudent'. CAG, in fact, notes the US navy was to decommission the 173-metre-long USS Trenton , which entered service in 1971, in 2006 after finding that nothing much could be achieved by further modernization.

The US, however, offered to sell it to India at 10% of its original cost in September 2004. But the ship's 'poor condition' entailed significant changes in the scope of the refurbishment work, with the cost going up, for which the navy had not taken prior approval from the 'competent financial authority'.

It was finally in June 2007 that the Indian navy commissioned the 16,900-tonne INS Jalashwa , making it the second largest warship in its fleet after the 28,000-tonne aircraft carrier INS Viraat , following an extensive refit in US that cost $36.94 million.

The navy promptly proclaimed the ship would run for a good 12 to 15 years more. Rubbish, says the CAG, holding that 'no basis' for reaching this conclusion has ever been furnished. Moreover, the ship's cost is bound to go up further since it would require upgrades and modifications.

In fact, negotiations are already in progress with a foreign firm to refurbish the weapon system installed on-board the ship. This apart, the six helicopters to operate from the ship have cost another $39 million.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US-made_Jalashwa_a_lemon_CAG/articleshow/2867453.cms

To date, India lost 5 Indian lives and spent $124.18 million on this ship (called a Lemon by the Indian CAG) plus further expenditure are on their way in the name of refurbishing the weopon systems installed on board the ship which is 37 years old and had an envisaged service life of 40 years. Indian Navy seems confident that they can pull another Virat by keeping this amphibious ship floating beyond its service life though the idea has been labelled as " Rubbish " by the Indian CAG.

I "was" under the impression that IN was the most sensible among the three arms and use the money carefully.

 

[Sea Toby]

As I noted before, and I will repeat, the Indian navy knew when they bought the ship this ship is old. They bought the ship dirt cheap, spending only several million dollars above the last refit. The US Navy isn't going to sell the ship for less than its scrap value.

Keep in mind the ships replacing it will costs the US Navy over a billion dollars. Also keep in mind the US Navy operates and deploys their ships throughout the world, so therefore, as they say in America's used car business, don't expect a cream puff.

She will be good enough to study her during the next 10-15 years as India operates the ship. Eventually, I expect India to know more about amphibious warfare and this type of ship to build one of their own at a later date. Hopefully, for less than a billion dollars.

Her helicopters are old too. Brand new helicopters are not cheap either. New Zealand spent like $50-60 million each for eight brand new NH-90s. India got four(?) for less than $40 million.

No, India did not get a brand new ship. Newer ships and helicopters of less age are not available at this moment or will cost much much more. But since India will be in the market for a new one soon, it is a great idea to learn as much as possible with an old, cheap one. Whether India decides to buy new LHDs similar to Australia or buy new LPDs similar to the British will be decided in the future.

And yes, future new buys will probably costs ten time as much. You will discover this ship will be a great asset with humanitarian missions after natural disasters. She can haul heavy equipment along with the manpower. She has a small hospital. She carries a few helicopters for search and rescue missions. Frankly, she is a much better ship than a brand new frigate with humanitarian missions.

 

[kams]

Sea Harrier upgrade,

HAL has contracted with Indian Navy to upgrade 14 Sea Harrier aircraft with new Fire Control Radar, Combat maneuver Monitoring and flight recorder, Multi function display unit, Ring laser gyro, Inertial Navigation and Ground Positioning System, Modified Radar hand controller & stick top and Beyond visual range missile with launcher.
The contract was signed on 30 March 2005 for Rs. 476.69 Crores (US $ 120 million approximtely). As per contract the flight test completion of two prototype aircraft is scheduled in Feb 2007. Two prototype aircraft are currently being upgraded and flight trials are planned in Feb 2007. The series upgrade of 12 aircraft are scheduled from April 2007 to March 2008.

From report of standing committee on defence, 2006-7.

 

[Salty Dog]

It's unfortunate that crewmembers perished due to H2S gas on the INS Jalashwa, however, H2S is present in waste systems on even the most modern ships, so there must have been a serious safety deficiency vice age of the ship.

As Sea Toby mentioned, India would not have found a better value in acquiring the ex-Trenton with helos. Most importantly, the INS Jalashwa is operational and available now. Any new build or development program would only put a similar hull in use after a decade, seeing how procurement timelines seem to extend themselves.

 

[AegisFC]

It's unfortunate that crewmembers perished due to H2S gas on the INS Jalashwa, however, H2S is present in waste systems on even the most modern ships, so there must have been a serious safety deficiency vice age of the ship.

It wouldn't surprise me if in the end the cause of the gas leak was due to unfamiliarity and a lack of training with the Trenton's CHT system. Their is a post a couple pages back that mention the Trenton used a sewage system completely different than any other used in the Indian navy.

 

[Salty Dog]

It wouldn't surprise me if in the end the cause of the gas leak was due to unfamiliarity and a lack of training with the Trenton's CHT system. Their is a post a couple pages back that mention the Trenton used a sewage system completely different than any other used in the Indian navy.

You are spot on mate. The ex-Trenton does have the CHT system common on earlier USN ships. Sewage goes directly overboard or into the holding tank to be pumped out later at sea or into a barge/sewer system inport. This is unique to the IN as the rest of the fleet have STP (sewage treatment plants) that treat the sewage and pump it over the side continuously.

 

[kams]

US Navy Secretary's visit to India to maintain momentum of high profile exchanges

It may be pertinent to point out here that Lockheed Martin has offered to build three surface combat ships for the Indian Navy. Though the type of ships have not been specified, it could easily be the LCS as some production lines at the Mazgaon Docks are lying idle, awaiting fresh orders from the Indian Navy.

Though the LCS will be a corvette size ship, smaller in size than the larger combat ships that the yards can handle, the advantage is that production lines can be activated. For that matter, the orders could easily go to other yards, such as the one at Goa, which has traditionally constructed corvette size ships for the Indian Navy.

The Israeli requirement for launchers for the Barak missile system finds commonality with Indian Navy ships as well, or they too deploy the Israeli system.

Another possible advantage for the Navy would lie in the modular type of construction that the LCS allows, which will see a larger turnover of ships at the yard. The Indian Navy has been trying desperately to enhance its fleet size for quite some time, trying to overcome a historical legacy when the yards sat idle for almost a decade awaiting orders from the government.

In terms of operational profile, the LCS may also fit in well with the Navy's need to maintain watch over a host of littoral countries in the region, even as it deploys its main assets for long-range operations.

The Israeli version could well become a joint Indo-Israeli version leading to a larger order for Lockheed. This would also favourably impact the economics of the project, for larger orders bring down prices.

During Defexpo 08, there was a report that Lockmart (with Hyundai and L&T as partners) has bid for IN's tender for seven 6000 T AAW Frigates. However I am skeptical of the above story that Lockmart has offered LCS. I really don't see a role for a 45 knot/hr specialized corvette size vessel in Indian Navy. Mazgaon Docks has her order books full till 2012 or so.

 

[kams]

No curbs on India’s deployment of troop carrier: US official

New Delhi, March 28 (IANS) There are no restrictions on the manner the Indian Navy deploys a troop carrier it has purchased from the US, a top American official said Friday. “There is no unique language associated” in the contract for the purchase of the USS Trenton, now renamed the INS Jalashva, US Navy Secretary Donald C. Winter told reporters here.

“We do not limit the use of a ship by a sovereign nation in support of its national defence objectives,” Winter added.

His remarks came in response to objections raised by India’s Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) that “restrictive clauses” in the $50.63 million deal for the purchase of the ship “raise doubts about the real advantages” of the acquisition.

There were “restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship” the CAG maintained in his report tabled in parliament earlier this month.

The CAG also objected to the permission granted to the US government “to conduct an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred under the end-use monitoring clause of the LOA (letter of offer and acceptance)”.

The CAG had slammed the purchase per se, saying that the “ageing” ship was acquired “without physical assessment” of the vessel, leading to the cost of its refurbishment rising by nearly $2 million.

The Jalashva had joined the Indian Navy fleet late last year. And accident on board, while participating in an exercise in the Bay of Bengal, soon after had claimed the lives of five sailors.

On his part, Winter maintained the US could learn from its experience in refurbishing the Jalashva.

“There are many options on the table. We are examining if we can do a similar life extension (on the nine troop carriers similar to the Jalashva the US Navy currently operates),” he maintained.

On Friday, Winter met Indian Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta and other civilian and defence officials. On Thursday, he had visited the premier Mumbai-based Western Naval Command and the Mazagon Dockyard Limited where the first of six French-designed Scorpene submarines are being constructed.

“Both our countries have significant maritime and security interest and there is much we can share on this. We’ve had a good set of sessions on furthering this,” Winter said.

 

[kams]

SIMBEX is an acronym that stands for 'Singapore India Maritime Bilateral Exercises' and is an institutionalised and regular series of annual exercises conducted between the Indian Navy and the navy of the Republic of Singapore (RSN). The Indian Navy's operational interaction with the RSN, which commenced with modesty – pitched anti-submarine training exercises in 1994, has grown steadily and impressively over the past 14 years. 'SIMBEX 2008', currently being conducted on India's Eastern seaboard between the 16th and 30th of this month.

For SIMBEX-2008, Singapore fielded one 'Endurance class' landing platform dock (RSS Persistence), one 'Formidable class' frigate (RSS Formidable), two 'Victory Class' guided- missile corvettes (RSS Vigilance and Valour), and one 'Fokker-50' maritime patrol aircraft. Indian participation in the exercise included one guided missile destroyer (INS Rajput), one guided-missile frigate (INS Gomati), two guided-missile corvettes (Kirch & Kuthar), two missile vessels (Vinash Vibhut), one fast attack craft (INS Trinkat), one submarine(INS VAGLI) shore-based fighter aircraft(IN Kiran & IAF MIG-27s) medium-range maritime patrol aircraft (Dornier) and shipborne helicopters. Bilateral interaction was progressed at sea as well as in harbour. Whilst the harbour phase focussed on sharing operational experiences through professional interaction, the sea phase concentrated upon the conduct of a plethora of exercises ranging from surface firings and anti aircraft engagements to anti submarine warfare exercises and serials involving the deployment and coordination of maritime patrol aircraft as well as shore based fighters.

The Indian Navy lays great stress on enhancing and sustaining bilateral ties, as also on improving mutual understanding with regional navies, through exercises such as those of the SIMBEX series. These exercises not only provide immense training value to our sea going personnel but also help in fostering mutual trust and friendship between our respective nations, adding strength to our commitment and resolve to tackle common challenges with the maritime domain.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=36965

India-Singapore defence co-operation is growing exponentially. Indian and Singaporean army held a large scale exercise in Kurukshetra last year. Both countries have signed an agreement on joint training of Air force.

 

[Salty Dog]

No curbs on India’s deployment of troop carrier: US official

From a previous posting:

I seriously doubt the validity of the article that a "restrictive clause" of the nature mentioned was signed. A FMS (foreign military sales) contact is pretty much "boilerplate language" and includes EUM (end use monitoring) as standard items required by the US Government. Especially in the transfer of a used ship.

The actual verbage used is "purchasers must agree to use articles, training, and services only for their furnished purpose".

The main concern of the US Govermment is that the purchaser not use the articles, training, and services for non-military action, e.g. against civilians.

See the instruction: http://www.dsca.mil/samm/Chapter 08 - End-Use Monitoring (EUM).pdf

National defense is a legitimate end use purpose.