Brazil building own nuclear submarine

[Sea Toby]

As I have said before, as long as the Latin American navies can buy used frigates at the end of their lives or at their mid-lives from European navies for less than they can buy and build brand new OPVs, they will. The lone exception recently has been Venezuela with its oil wealth. Unfortunately, used submarines are not available on the used market as used frigates are. Therefore, Latin America's buys and builds of new submarines.

While new builds of OPVs are more expensive than used frigates, the used frigates have much more punch than new OPVs. Its not as if new OPVs costs a whole lot more than the used frigates. I believe their economies would be better off if they built new OPVs instead of tossing funds to other nations for used frigates.

You would think for that amount of money Brazil could build a small LHD/LPD flat top to replace its old Foch aircraft carrier. But again, as long as Brazil can buy used American or European amphibious ships, they will.

 

[Firehorse]

I don't think they are burning with desire to have a "blue water" navy, like China now. The PLAN has been, until about 20 years ago, a coastal force with emphasis on subs and high speed patrol craft. The Brazilians, IMO, figured that they don't need the latest surface ships more than they need the latest subs, following the PRC's example with a twist. For sea control, continental shelf, and SLOC protection they can also use land-based aircraft -their Atlantic coastline is the longest, with plenty of strategic depth!

 

[gf0012-aust]

their Atlantic coastline is the longest, with plenty of strategic depth!

strategic depth has to converge with tactical depth or it's meaningless

 

[Firehorse]

Perhaps Su-35s or something similar will give them that!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Perhaps Su-35s or something similar will give them that!

it's not an issue of looking at individual capability. thats why we ban "plaform a vs platform b" comparisons in here

strategic depth has to converge with tactical depth and both are governed by logistics.

Don't look at the platform, look at the logistical impediments and weighting in relation to the introduction or use of that platform with the rest of a countries "weight to bear"

strategic depth, tactical depth, platforms etc have to be coherent and symbiotic. bringing in a new "x" platform disrupts rather than contributes if the rest of the capability ledger is out of whack. That includes training, support, spares, vendor reliablity, capability vacuum, support systems etc....

The plane is 5% of the countries capability

 

[Firehorse]

So, since they don't have those things, in your opinion, they should invest in new surface ships? Maybe they will do it later, but for now they apparently want subs- in a war, they are harder to find & sink!

 

[Sea Toby]

But the real threat to these Latin American nations is internal strife, possible coups of which there have been many, and illegal drug traffic, and kidnappers. The Pope is available for any border disputes, along with the Organization of American states.

Recently Colombia and Venezuela almost came to blows. It was interesting that the other nations took the attitude that they wouldn't allow a war on their continent. From Mexico in the north all the way to Argentina and Chile to the south.

While they may need new submarines for the naval sea denial, a submarine does not enforce their fisheries, or their economic zones or fight the illegal drug traffic as well as surface ships. Much like Australia, all of these navies would be better off with with surface ships.

 

[contedicavour]

So, since they don't have those things, in your opinion, they should invest in new surface ships? Maybe they will do it later, but for now they apparently want subs- in a war, they are harder to find & sink!

Well yes precisely. If they invest in SSKs their surface fleet will disappear in approx 10 years : the Niterois, though modernized, are 35-40 year old ships. The Broadsword batch 1 are also beyond the 30 year threshold. The Foch/Sao Paulo is 45 years old. Building a new FFG takes at least 6 years. It's mathematical, it's now or never that Brazil has to spend on their surface fleet.
Otherwise they'll be reduced to trying to buy second hand 1980s vintage French Leygues or Italian Maestrale, 30 years old and heavily used during their service lifes.

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

But as long as the Europeans sell the Latin Americans used frigates, they will want to buy new submarines. No one will sell them useful used submarines. Either the Dutch, the French, the Italians, and the British will sell them used frigates. And then there are the Egyptians and Pakistanis needing newer used frigates. If the used frigate store closed, then the Latin Americans will build OPVs and/or corvettes.

They simply can not afford to buy both new frigates and new submarines at the same time. As it is they can easily buy four used frigates for the price of one new submarine. There are much more used frigates in the used ship marketplace than used submarines.

And with fighter jets becoming much more expensive, they can not afford new fighter jets either, easily. The only nation that can afford a few new frigates and fighter jets is oil rich Venezuela. They are smacking their lips in Latin America expecting to buy used F-16s and Mirages on the cheap. Most likely the Brazilians can not wait to buy some F/A-18s on the cheap too. They will become available long before the Rafaels. The other solution is to buy Russian aircraft. But like the West, Russia wants to sell them new aircraft, not used. Frankly, I am amazed the Brazilians have not purchased New Zealand's Skyhawks by now. Northrups's F-20 died because none of the Latin American nations bought it, preferring to keep their F-5s.

 

[kato]

But as long as the Europeans sell the Latin Americans used frigates, they will want to buy new submarines. No one will sell them useful used submarines.

There quite simply isn't a market for used submarines in the first place, worldwide.

Only used subs sold in recent times were the four Upholders for Canada (and we know how that went...) and the six Kobbens for Poland (which are about 40 years old).

This is mostly because quite a number of countries - all that can finance it - continue to run sub fleets acquired in the late 70s to mid 80s. Which, with a bit more recent upgrades, will serve at least until the late 2010s.

In addition to that, almost all submarines in "main" fleets are run roughshod by the time they're decommissioned - barely any are less than 35-40 years old by that time, the mentioned Upholders being the big exception.

About the only subs i could think of that would even haven been sellable were the four Agostas decommissioned by France around 2000, and the Japanese Yushios around 2000-2005 and Uzushios around 1990-1995. Considering Japan isn't into selling at all, there'd only be four submarines on the market.
Although i bet Brazil would have liked 6-8 Yushios, properly refurbished and relabeled in Portuguese and English of course.

 

[Sea Toby]

I agree Kato. There aren't as many submarines on the used submarine market as much as there are used frigates, many of which can sail for several more years with tender loving care.

But building nuclear submarines when diesel subs are so much cheaper?

 

[Salty Dog]

More on the Brazilian nuclear submarine.

Brazil Plans to Invest in Latest Military Technology

By Heloiza Canassa and Andre Soliani

April 9 (Bloomberg) -- Brazil will boost investments in the latest military technology to strengthen its armed forces, said Strategic Matters Minister Mangabeira Unger.

Latin America's biggest economy will buy the newest generation of jet fighters for the Air Force and build a nuclear submarine for the Navy, Unger told reporters today in Brasilia at a joint news conference with Defense Minister Nelson Jobim.

Brazil's defense buildup comes amid a military spending spree in South America. Colombia is buying 24 Israeli Kfir fighter jets. Ecuador will boost military spending 19 percent this year. Venezuela has signed deals for $4.4 billion in arms purchases including 24 Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets and 38 combat and transport helicopters.

``Brazil doesn't face threats from any country, but we need to be prepared,'' Jobim told reporters.

Unger said Brazil's main military concern is the Amazon, where the country borders Venezuela, Colombia and Peru.

The region's importance for Brazil was heightened by recent disclosures that guerrillas from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia are operating across the border in Venezuela and Ecuador, said Peter Hakim, president of the Inter-American Dialogue, a policy research group in Washington. A Colombian attack on a FARC base in Ecuador in March sent tensions soaring between the two countries and Venezuela, Ecuador's ally.

`Flare Up'

``The flare up in the Andes helped Brazil recognize that they aren't as well-positioned in the Amazon as they probably want to be,'' Hakim said by phone.

Jobim said the Defense Ministry is considering the purchase of jet fighters such as the French-made Rafale or U.S- made Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F35.

The country is also seeking an international partnership to help build a nuclear submarine. Brazil has started negotiations with the U.S., France, India, Russia and the U.K.

Brazil also will seek support from its neighbors to create a South American Defense Council to help coordinate the countries' military strategies, Jobim said.

He will visit Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez next week to discuss setting up the council, then travel to Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay.

The Brazilian initiative follows Venezuela and Ecuador's dispatch of troops to the Colombian border after the cross- border raid killed 26 people.

The FARC would be met ``with bullets'' should they cross into Brazilian territory, Jobim said.

 

[contedicavour]

More on the Brazilian nuclear submarine.

I certainly see the logic behind buying new fighter planes when your neighbours fly SU30s, but I still fail to see any logic behind the SSN. Renewing the surface fleet and thinking of buying new SSKs with SSM capability (U214 or Scorpene) should be the only logical next steps.

cheers

 

[werty]

the

The thort of brazil of all countries having a ssn is really not needed. The 1.2bn dollar programme should be spent on better things like health,education ect, but there to far stuck up there a$$ spending 25 billion dollars anualy on there military that there not lookin at there own people for gods sake there a bloody developing counrty (poor) fair enuff if they had money growing out of the tree

first post

 

[Salty Dog]

Brazil To Use Nuclear Submarine To Protect Oil Fields -Minister

SAO PAULO -(Dow Jones)- Brazil's government will use a planned nuclear-powered submarine to protect the country's offshore oil fields, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said Wednesday.

According to the minister, Brazil will spend about 1 billion reals ($613 million) to build a nuclear submarine.

Jobim made the statement during televised testimony before a congressional committee. He said the submarine will be used exclusively for defense, and won't carry nuclear arms.

Brazilian state-controlled energy giant Petroleo Brasileiro (PBR), or Petrobras, has made a number of important new offshore finds in recent months.

In November, Petrobras estimated recoverable reserves at its Tupi field in the pre-salt layer of the Santos Basin off the coast of Rio de Janeiro state at up to 8 billion barrels of oil equivalent. The company also has said that test wells in other Santos Basin blocks have confirmed the presence of oil.

-By Rogerio Jelmayer, Dow Jones Newswires; 5511-6847-4521; [email protected]

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

June 04, 2008 14:35 ET (18:35 GMT)

The Brazil press also cites Minister Jobim saying the R$ Bi submarine will be built within ten years. There are also plans for 50 patrol boats. The main justifications for the SSN and patrol boats are to patrol their EEZ which Brazil hopes to extend from 200 Nm to 350 Nm.

 

[Firehorse]

Brazil spending $160M on nuclear propelled sub
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/08/29/international/i150749D11.DTL
(08-29) 17:22 PDT RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (AP) --

Brazil will spend US$160 million by the end of next year on the development of a nuclear-propelled submarine to protect the oil reserves found recently off its coast, the defense minister said Friday.
The vessel — which officials hope to be complete by 2020 — would be the first nuclear-propelled submarine in Latin America. Brazil does not have nuclear weapons.
The submarine is the highlight of the Brazil's new defense plan — to be made public on Sept. 7.
Brazil is believed to be preparing to spend US$3.5 billion by the end of 2010 to upgrade its weapon systems, according to reports in the local media.

Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, speaking Friday in Rio de Janeiro, said the new defense plan includes provisions for a massive technology transfer from France — essential if Brazil hopes to have a nuclear submarine.
In February, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said France would transfer technology to Brazil for construction of the diesel-powered Scorpene attack submarine. It will serve as a model for a nuclear sub, Brazilian officials have said.

I guess they intend to have both conventional and nuclear powered subs. A regional superpower must use nuclear technology for its defense- this becomes an axiom!

 

[Salty Dog]

I guess they intend to have both conventional and nuclear powered subs. A regional superpower must use nuclear technology for its defense- this becomes an axiom!

I disagree with the second part of your response as there are numerous other methods that Brazil can cost effectively "patrol their offshore oilfields". How can one argue that an SSN is a cost effective (if not practical means) for this type of patrol mission.

Brazil is stubbornly holding on to their SSN program that has already spanned two decades. AFAIK the reasons for this are more political than practical.

 

[harryriedl]

I disagree with the second part of your response as there are numerous other methods that Brazil can cost effectively "patrol their offshore oilfields". How can one argue that an SSN is a cost effective (if not practical means) for this type of patrol mission.

Brazil is stubbornly holding on to their SSN program that has already spanned two decades. AFAIK the reasons for this are more political than practical.

The Brazilian SSN program seems like one of those great Vaporware programs. How much money have they plowed into this program now?

 

[Salty Dog]

The Brazilian SSN program seems like one of those great Vaporware programs. How much money have they plowed into this program now?

AFAIK the funding value for the SSN program was not that big as you my think although I do not have any figures. Until a few years ago the Brazilian economy was very low and so was military expediture. During the past decade, navy priorities went to their fixed wing aircraft program (A-4 acquisition and ex-Foch CV) as well completing their SSKs. The SSN program was minimally funded to keep it alive and personnel retained.

Things have changed as the Brazilian economy is now a front burner. Recent offshore oil discoveries creates a larger maritime patrol requirement. The new offshore oilfields also promise increased royalties (funding) for navy projects.

Brazil's defense plan for major upgrades is due out on September 7. We should see some significant requirements.

 

[2S1]

AFAIK the funding value for the SSN program was not that big as you my think although I do not have any figures. Until a few years ago the Brazilian economy was very low and so was military expediture. During the past decade, navy priorities went to their fixed wing aircraft program (A-4 acquisition and ex-Foch CV) as well completing their SSKs. The SSN program was minimally funded to keep it alive and personnel retained.

Things have changed as the Brazilian economy is now a front burner. Recent offshore oil discoveries creates a larger maritime patrol requirement. The new offshore oilfields also promise increased royalties (funding) for navy projects.

Brazil's defense plan for major upgrades is due out on September 7. We should see some significant requirements.

Salty Dog, could this not spiral into another aspect of the current South American arms race though?

I'm sure the last time Brazil embarked on this venture, Argentina swiftly followed suite. Dare I speculate that Venezuala and Chile may respond this time? With several other South American states attempting to respond in near-kind?

Given the supremacy of Brazil within the region, is this prestige-value-only venture not possibly a step backward?