RMAF Future; need opinions

[nevidimka]

ROCK45, i think i know where your getting at, that there isnt a final product for show. I believe Qwerty already replied most of your concerns. Let me tell you as to why this is happening, coz perhaps you dont know this.

You see Mikoyan coorporation is not as financially healthy as Sukhoi is. They lost the carrier aircraft for Russian Navy contract to sukhoi, n also lost the Pak Fa contract to Sukhoi. Plus the lost in sales to Sukhoi in international markets as more n more client states are prefering the more capable flanker series now that Russia is allowing its export.
So every venture that Mig takes, it has to thread carefully, n not blow all of its bank money when there is no solid client for it, considering even the Russian Airforce is more interested in modernising n aquiring new flankers.
Hence why they produced an almost complete Mig35 with some capabilities in line but not on the aircraft.
If they can confirm a contract for the Indian MMRCA going to them, then you shall see a full blown Mig35 complete with all its promised capabilities right to its AESA, coming out of a steady production line.They just need the word, to get go. Its not that they are lying or such, just look at the Indian Mig29K.

 

[wzhtg]

More Su-3OMKMs arrive

Russia Delivers New Batch of Fighters to Malaysia

(Source: Vietnam News Agency; issued March 5, 2008)

HANOI --- Russia has delivered four Su-30 MKM fighter planes to Malaysia under a contract signed in 2003, a spokesman for the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer said.

Malaysia will receive a total of 18 Su-30MKM fighters under a 900-million-USD contract by the end of 2008. The first six aircraft were delivered in 2007.

The contract also stipulates the construction of a service centre for Su-30MKM fighters in Malaysia, and Russia's assistance with the country's national space exploration programme.

The Su-30MKM is a multi-role Flanker version based on the Su-30MKI model and features a customized avionics package built to Malaysian specifications, according to news reports on March 4.

-ends-

 

[nevidimka]

So how many Su30's do we have now in our air bases?
What about the services for maintaining n overhauling the SU30's by Malaysia? Have they been set up n running? Are they being taken by ATSC as well?

 

[qwerty223]

So how many Su30's do we have now in our air bases?
What about the services for maintaining n overhauling the SU30's by Malaysia? Have they been set up n running? Are they being taken by ATSC as well?

Well, from the Russian source Moscow Defence Brief, 10 were delivered(rolled-out) as of 2007.
I also found an interesting report by the US based Aviation International News(AIN).
Let me summarized it for ease reading:

1. ATSC got the contract for maintaining MKM

2. detail for the avionic:
French Thales: HUD, Damocles targeting pod and IFF sys

Saab AVITRONICS (S.Africa): missile approach warning (MAW-300) and laser warning systems.

Russian: DECM active jammer (SAP518M), UV-30MK CMDS, RWR (L-150-30 Pastel) and IRST (UOMZ OLS-30I), display processor(MKI w/ indian one)

3. UK Cobham: 754 Buddy Refueling System pod

4. RMAF admitted integration difficulty

5.3000 flight hrs qualified pilots: Col. Muhammad Norazlan Aris, and Majors Azman Jantan, Fadzli Sabirin and Choy Swee On accumulated external 60hrs on MKM.

6. Simulator set is yet not arrived

7. Russian is offering trade-in for 14 MiG-29N

8. As of February, MKM pilots start to training for weaponry and EW

9. One of the Russian trainer is Victor Pugachev, creater of Pugachev Cobra Maneuver!

10. The initial 6 crews were from F/A-18D instead!
Link

 

[nevidimka]

Well, from the Russian source Moscow Defence Brief, 10 were delivered(rolled-out) as of 2007.
I also found an interesting report by the US based Aviation International News(AIN).
Let me summarized it for ease reading:

1. ATSC got the contract for maintaining MKM

2. detail for the avionic:
French Thales: HUD, Damocles targeting pod and IFF sys

Saab AVITRONICS (S.Africa): missile approach warning (MAW-300) and laser warning systems.

Russian: DECM active jammer (SAP518M), UV-30MK CMDS, RWR (L-150-30 Pastel) and IRST (UOMZ OLS-30I), display processor(MKI w/ indian one)

3. UK Cobham: 754 Buddy Refueling System pod

4. RMAF admitted integration difficulty

5.3000 flight hrs qualified pilots: Col. Muhammad Norazlan Aris, and Majors Azman Jantan, Fadzli Sabirin and Choy Swee On accumulated external 60hrs on MKM.

6. Simulator set is yet not arrived

7. Russian is offering trade-in for 14 MiG-29N

8. As of February, MKM pilots start to training for weaponry and EW

9. One of the Russian trainer is Victor Pugachev, creater of Pugachev Cobra Maneuver!

10. The initial 6 crews were from F/A-18D instead!
Link

Interesting news. But something i dont understand is, IIRC in reports before, they said they were going to use Indian computers, here it states that the Su30MKM will be using russian processors. Why is that? Are the russian procesors more capable than the Indian ones?

Also based from rereading the report, i believe only 6 is available now, not 10. Another 2 batches of 6 aircrafts each will commence n complete this year.

And is the Russian built RWR (L-150-30 Pastel) capable of detecting AESA radar tracking the SU30mkm? and what is UV-30MK CMDS?

Also why is the simulator not arived when the plane itself is here? Training should move from simulator to plane which would be more safer for both pilots n the plane.

I was all for upgrading the Mig29, but if there is an option to trade in the Mig29 to Russia itself n get the second bacth of SU30's cheaper, then i think this option should be seriously considered. And i hope the aquisition of the second batch of of Flankers should not be delayed too long from the time of receiving the 1st batch. As i believe if to much time was allowed to pass between both purchases, it would be problematic n less efective.

 

[qwerty223]

Interesting news. But something i dont understand is, IIRC in reports before, they said they were going to use Indian computers, here it states that the Su30MKM will be using russian processors. Why is that? Are the russian procesors more capable than the Indian ones?

Also based from rereading the report, i believe only 6 is available now, not 10. Another 2 batches of 6 aircrafts each will commence n complete this year.

And is the Russian built RWR (L-150-30 Pastel) capable of detecting AESA radar tracking the SU30mkm? and what is UV-30MK CMDS?

Also why is the simulator not arived when the plane itself is here? Training should move from simulator to plane which would be more safer for both pilots n the plane.

I was all for upgrading the Mig29, but if there is an option to trade in the Mig29 to Russia itself n get the second bacth of SU30's cheaper, then i think this option should be seriously considered. And i hope the aquisition of the second batch of of Flankers should not be delayed too long from the time of receiving the 1st batch. As i believe if to much time was allowed to pass between both purchases, it would be problematic n less efective.

Well, the report was date back Feb 19th Things might vary and 4 at a batch is also a reasonable number.
AESA is still a radar, it may be hard to intercept, but thats because you are scaning it from a random band. As of the case of being constantly projected electronic beam/wave, it is reasonable to trigger a sensitive receiver.
And the article did mention the 3 pairs of pilots are to be instructor and had been training in the Russia for at least 3 months. The simulator are for newbies that will be coming later.
No idea whats UV-30MK CMDS.

 

[johngage]

If the RMAF wanted to purchase second hand F/A-18D's, are there any countries which are likely to be phasing out their Hornets in the near future?

 

[qwerty223]

If the RMAF wanted to purchase second hand F/A-18D's, are there any countries which are likely to be phasing out their Hornets in the near future?

No way we are going for D models

 

[johngage]

No way we are going for D models

Its a shame because the RMAF only has eight which is not really a full squadron. Thought it would be good to get more numbers as RMAF is desperately short. What should be the priority? AWAC's or another MRCA? Personally, think Malaysia needs a minimum of 3 MRCA Squadrons but also a good AWACS as well. Also unsure whether it is better to go for F/A-18E/F (which will not be full-Spec, for e.g. no APG-79) or more SU-30MKM's (which will be more expensive to maintain). Would appreciate some comments.

 

[qwerty223]

Its a shame because the RMAF only has eight which is not really a full squadron. Thought it would be good to get more numbers as RMAF is desperately short. What should be the priority? AWAC's or another MRCA? Personally, think Malaysia needs a minimum of 3 MRCA Squadrons but also a good AWACS as well. Also unsure whether it is better to go for F/A-18E/F (which will not be full-Spec, for e.g. no APG-79) or more SU-30MKM's (which will be more expensive to maintain). Would appreciate some comments.

1st of all, why is shame when we are not affortable for a full sqd of expensive air asset?
2, why would us get a full package of S.Hornet? Update ur mind please.

 

[johngage]

1st of all, why is shame when we are not affortable for a full sqd of expensive air asset?
2, why would us get a full package of S.Hornet? Update ur mind please.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say.

 

[qwerty223]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say.

1. I am defencing RMAF from the "shame" word you use earlier.
2. Time changed, things changed too. "We wont get it all" is no more valid.

 

[ROCK45]

F/a-18

Out of the eight Hornet users counting the US Navy I think Spain maybe down the road may sell. The reason I mention Spain is the Typhoon coming online but numbers would have to build up. The D models are modern compared to a lot of other countries fighter overall, yes E/F are better but run around $100 million per if not a little more. Most users are happy with there Hornets and Canada had there's upgraded not to long ago. Reading the specs on the Flankers pretty impressive overall and getting the training Sim's will help boast training for sure. I think once the RMAF ground crews get good it takes years just like pilots there have a better understanding of the Flankers maintenance needs and there go from there as far buying more or different fighter.


* Did I leave anybody out?


Maybe list?
US Navy - I'm sure in time but the frames will have a lot of hours
Australia - Don't think so
Canada - Just upgraded so I don't think so
Spain - Best chance because of the Typhoon's coming online
Finland - Maybe somebody knows better
Switzerland - Maybe somebody knows better
Mayaysia - Current situation that article mentioned Hornet driver being the Flanker pilots.
Kuwait - If they had something else then maybe I might say there's a chance but nothing is planned that I could find about buying other fighters?

 

[johngage]

<P>Please read my previous post. I did NOT say that the "RMAF should feel ashamed", I said that "its a shame" that they aren't MORE F/A-18D's in the RMAF. Personally, I think that the RMAF should not have purchased the MiG-29N's and instead should have bought additional F/A-18D's instead but that is just a personal opinion.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I think that you should find out more about US restrictions with regard to Foreign Military Sales (FMS). The rules against selling certain technologies to certain countries is very much valid.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>

 

[johngage]

1. I am defencing RMAF from the "shame" word you use earlier.
2. Time changed, things changed too. "We wont get it all" is no more valid.

Please read my previous post. I did NOT say that the "RMAF should feel ashamed", I said that "its a shame" that they aren't MORE F/A-18D's in the RMAF. Personally, I think that the RMAF should not have purchased the MiG-29N's and instead should have bought additional F/A-18D's instead but that is just a personal opinion.

I think that you should find out more about US restrictions with regard to Foreign Military Sales (FMS). The rules against selling certain technologies to certain countries is very much valid.

 

[qwerty223]

1.Yeah thats what i mean, why "it is a shame"? whats the reason to feel shame?
2.LoL, I am very familiar with the restriction as i work with it. I only tell what i know. No matter you believe, or not.

 

[TanaTana]

Well it is a shame that the restriction is imposed on US planes sold to Malaysia. Accordingly, the air force did want to get more of the Hornets for them being easiear to maintain and more combat ready. The restrictions were so severe that RMAF opted to russian... among them: The Hornet cannot be armed with AMRAAM without US permission. And the Hornets cannot be used to attack any country. ( Only to defend ) Which means arming the Hornets can only be used strike Malaysian soil if it is held by enemies.

Sorry, no referrence. Taken from speech by Tun Mahathir, former Prime Minister.

 

[ROCK45]

restriction

TanaTana I didn't know restrictions like you mentioned were in place that does make it difficult for the RMAF. Any chance the restrictions may be lifted? Thanks

 

[Mr Ignorant]

Ideally in an ideal world, Malaysia should just buy American planes. The Singaporeans operate quite a large fleet of US Fighters and I don't see why Malaysia could have gone down that road.

But, we don't live an ideal world, that's the thing. Any Malaysian contract and purchase of advanced fighters from the US would have to be approved by Congress in Washington. In addition to any restrictions or demands made by the US authorities.

Treaties made by Australia and Singapore with the US - allows and affords them greater flexibility - but Malaysians rely solely on the FPDA .

In all fairness, 3 further batches of MRCAs should be made over a 5-8 year period; with the view of maintaining the aircraft for over 20-25 years. For now; by the end of 2008 the breakdown would be as follows;

18 SU 30 MKMs

16 Mig 29s

8 F/A 18Ds

Which should give the RMAF 42 modern operational aircraft. The F5s have been placed in storage and the small number remaining would be used for recon missions. The 2nd tier of BAE Hawk 200s - 18 overall; are sufficiently modern to be used for self defence/bombing in the Country in case of any serious internal threats.

So ideally squadrons that are due to retire or have been dismantled; especially in the case of the A4 Skyhawks and F5s - should be augmented by 2 or 3 more MRCAs. I don't see why SU 30s or Eurofighters could be purchased for this purpose - if it comes to that

But then again we don't live in an ideal world, so the RMAF on paper - has 3 full operational squadrons in number equipped with modern fighters. No more than that.

 

[qwerty223]

Well it is a shame that the restriction is imposed on US planes sold to Malaysia. Accordingly, the air force did want to get more of the Hornets for them being easiear to maintain and more combat ready. The restrictions were so severe that RMAF opted to russian... among them: The Hornet cannot be armed with AMRAAM without US permission. And the Hornets cannot be used to attack any country. ( Only to defend ) Which means arming the Hornets can only be used strike Malaysian soil if it is held by enemies.

Sorry, no referrence. Taken from speech by Tun Mahathir, former Prime Minister.

LoL, the restriction you mention here is a different story. Not that we are not being offered such advance weapon like the JDAM, AMRAAM etc... is that we were to seek permission to use it. It goes same to every American product users, even its closest ally, Israel. From many news you can see, American did felt "unhappy" with his close ally using these advance weapon without at least an inform. But anyways, in a real war, who cares? Also a good example shown by the same American closest ally...