weasel1962
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RMAF Future; need opinions
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Ozzy Blizzard
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The array hardware itself makes it an AESA, sure, but what makes a 3rd gen AESA is the signal proscessor and the hidously complicated software that alows advanced features like SAR imagry, elecronic attack and AESA based datalinks. (I got my numbers mixed up, i meant APG 63 (v)3, sorry the
nfloorl: may have been inapropriate) I agree an AESA is needed for the Rhnio to stay competitive as an air superiority fighter, but the APG 73 will be perfectly capable in the strike role, which was my point. Price?
I'm not the one supporting a rhino purchase, i think you should be investing in more Su-30MKM's. I wouldnt be bopthering with F/A-18F's if i were you, spceially since your not going to get B II's.
I'm glad it doesn't, i mean i know i put on a little weight lately but haveing a planet the size of the earth orbiting me, geesh, it might be time for a diet!
: Again i'm not advocateing a SH purchase of the RMAF! I'll say it for the 6th time, dont buy rhino's buy more Flankers!!! Rhino's make no sence whatsoever! This is whats childish, your distorting what i have said. The only reason a SH BI would be attractive is becasue it is a better strike platfrom with the addition of J-series PGM's.
Well, since then its clear.The array hardware itself makes it an AESA, sure, but what makes a 3rd gen AESA is the signal proscessor and the hidously complicated software that alows advanced features like SAR imagry, elecronic attack and AESA based datalinks. (I got my numbers mixed up, i meant APG 63 (v)3, sorry the
Price?
I'm not the one supporting a rhino purchase, i think you should be investing in more Su-30MKM's. I wouldnt be bopthering with F/A-18F's if i were you, spceially since your not going to get B II's.
I'm glad it doesn't, i mean i know i put on a little weight lately but haveing a planet the size of the earth orbiting me, geesh, it might be time for a diet!
Again i'm not advocateing a SH purchase of the RMAF! I'll say it for the 6th time, dont buy rhino's buy more Flankers!!! Rhino's make no sence whatsoever! This is whats childish, your distorting what i have said. The only reason a SH BI would be attractive is becasue it is a better strike platfrom with the addition of J-series PGM's.
I am just trying to outline the keen interest in the S.Hornet from the RMAF chiefs. And also elaborate the possibility for the Malaysian to get a full package out of the American.
weasel1962
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Is this new information? I thought we already know that these 4 helicopters are the ones being considered. I had initially thought they have made a decision when i saw that post after so long.
I think it will be the Russian mi-17 workhorse. I will be very surpised if they opt for something more expensive as it might affect other procurement programmes due to limited funds.
Can RMAF F18s shoot off Amraams and carry the lastest JDAMs now? Read somewhere that they would need upgrades which will not be ready till post 2011. Here`s what i found;
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Malaysia plans software upgrade for its F/A-18s
Dzirhan Mahadzir JDW Correspondent
Kuala Lumpur
Malaysia is upgrade the software systems on its six F/A-18C and two F/A-18D Hornets to allow them to fully utilise the latest weapon systems for the aircraft.
The upgrade is expected to cost up to USD17 million and is to be completed by 2011. Work will be carried out by a US Navy-appointed contractor as the upgrade programme will be handled by the US Department of Defense under the Foreign Military Sales programme.
The upgrades are necessary since Malaysia's F/A-18s have not undergone any software upgrade since their delivery in 1997 and thus are not fully able to utilise weapon systems introduced for the Hornets since then, such as the Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile (AMRAAM) and the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM).
Malaysia currently has less than two dozen AMRAAMs in storage on US territory; it will bring them into the country this year. Malaysia has also sent a request for an undisclosed number of JDAMs that is currently pending with the US.
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First of all, Malaysia does not have F/S Hornet C model. MAF only has 8 F/A Hornet D model.
I was trying to find whats the latest on offer by boeing to malaysia regarding AESA< but i cant find anything on it. IS AESA on offer yet? Considering that the JSF is will be coming shortly, it would be wise for RMAF to hold off the purchase of the SH n get another MKM sgd, with AWACS to give a full capability to the RMAF.
Perhaps with more delay in making the decision n losing out to MKM will make US to change its mind on the AESA. Getting the expensive SH without AESA just for the JDAM is waste of time n money IMHO. WE can make do with the strike capability that the MKM brings as for now.
I was trying to find whats the latest on offer by boeing to malaysia regarding AESA< but i cant find anything on it. IS AESA on offer yet? Considering that the JSF is will be coming shortly, it would be wise for RMAF to hold off the purchase of the SH n get another MKM sgd, with AWACS to give a full capability to the RMAF.
Perhaps with more delay in making the decision n losing out to MKM will make US to change its mind on the AESA. Getting the expensive SH without AESA just for the JDAM is waste of time n money IMHO. WE can make do with the strike capability that the MKM brings as for now.
Ozzy Blizzard
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I seriosly doubt the malaysians will be able to buy the APG 79 any time soon. I agree annother squadron of MKM's makes sence on soooo many levels, plus 2~3 Erieyes and bobs your uncle! Forget SH, even if you can get a full level block 2, its not worth the logistical headaches IMHO. Flanker is plenty capable, in service with many other organisations, is the right price, will do all the jobs you want it to and can be delivered when you need it. Standardise, standarise, standardise! Haveing 2 types of BVRAAMs, 2 types of WVRAAMs, 2 types of various PGM's, 2 types of AShM's, 2 types of dumb bombs, 2 logistical trains, hell probably two types of cannon ammo and none of them are interchangeable. Its a logistical nightmare. I hope you guys dont have to go to war with that mess becasue the logistical constraints will multiply.
Mr Ignorant
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I seriously doubt if another squadron of MKMs would be purchased. Malaysia is on tenterhooks just now following the elections. All budgets will be reviewed including defence spending. Expenditure no doubt will move on to more politically sensitive areas I believe.
I think bringing in politics is kinda moot in Malaysia's area. MAF's aquired mil hardware will be the guarded with high secrecy and without compomise. ALso the relations with Russia is not that close to warrant MAF giving them a peak at the AESA. However thats the very case with India which is co developing PAK FA with Russia n yet US is offering SH with AESA to them. Seems rediculous now doesnt it?
Also once Europe has deployed their AESA, n Russia start producing their IRBIS-E AESA or PAK FA's AESA, US holding on to AESA will be pointless. It would be much like the introduction of Advanced AAM in SEA. Which eventually US allowed when MAF got thier hands on the Adder.
Also the FLanker is a good investment considering new weapons can be introduced to take advantage of its powerfull Radar, particularly BVRAAM. ( which is what India is gearing up for). I think MAF should closely link their flanker upgrade program with India considering the amount of effort India is taking in making the flanker even better. In a nutshell, what does MAF got to loose? India is probably the only client state partner who wants/capable of advancing the flankers that both our countries bought.
Politics matters to a large degree with respect to US sales to potential customers. That means a lot of things; strategic ties, closeness of ties and proliferation issues, etc all matter. Is the US offering the AGP-79 exactly to India or a lower ended Aesa version or simply a multi-mode radar version?
I have read nothing which says to that affect. Secondly, the US wants to cultivate strategic relations with India and it can argued that it wants to displace Russia as India`s sole provider of weapons. The US also regards India as a key strategic partner with possibly China in mind.All these certainly cannot be said about Malaysia. These are the pros and cons which the US will weigh. India has never really been a so called Tier 1 customer to begin with. Can Malaysia buy MESA or afford Amraams in large numbers ? Larger than Singapore or Australia or Thailand?
Being cleared for weapons is one thing. Displacing a US ally strategically is a completely different thing. Malaysia will not get the AGp-79 until US allies in the region already have something better or new AESA radars in such large numbers that they do not tip the military balance in Malaysia`s favour vis-a-vis US allies and her strategic partners. That is a fact Malaysia will have to live with.
I do not think the US will take Malaysia-Iran ties for granted as well. The risks are all there.
Im sure every other country will say all the military secrets will guarded fiercely. Too bad no one really believes them too much. Especially the US. F-35 programme partners will know.
Malaysia is`nt exactly currently at the bottom of the heap among friendly countries when it comes to trust on the part of the US. But low enough.
1- how much F/A-18D RMAF have? -8Politics matters to a large degree with respect to US sales to potential customers. That means a lot of things; strategic ties, closeness of ties and proliferation issues, etc all matter. Is the US offering the AGP-79 exactly to India or a lower ended Aesa version or simply a multi-mode radar version?
All these certainly cannot be said about Malaysia. These are the pros and cons which the US will weigh. India has never really been a so called Tier 1 customer to begin with. Can Malaysia buy MESA or afford Amraams in large numbers ? Larger than Singapore or Australia or Thailand?
Being cleared for weapons is one thing. Displacing a US ally strategically is a completely different thing. Malaysia will not get the AGp-79 until US allies in the region already have something better or new AESA radars in such large numbers that they do not tip the military balance in Malaysia`s favour vis-a-vis US allies and her strategic partners. That is a fact Malaysia will have to live with.
I do not think the US will take Malaysia-Iran ties for granted as well. The risks are all there.
Im sure every other country will say all the military secrets will guarded fiercely. Too bad no one really believes them too much. Especially the US. F-35 programme partners will know.
Malaysia is`nt exactly currently at the bottom of the heap among friendly countries when it comes to trust on the part of the US. But low enough.
2- make sense RMAF buy more than 200 AMRAAM just for 8 F/A-18D? NO
3- Can Malaysia afford to buy more military asset than other SEA do? IMO YES, but they are not willing to....Malaysia's budget emphasize on education,health, socio-eco and subsidies....
4- does current politic situation effect MAF budget? Yes
5- The best choice for additional MRCA- Sukhoi-30MKM (no doubt)
Well, Malaysia probably will not become one of the ally but Malaysia has its unique attraction to the Americans. And Americans are also feeling comfortable to transfer tech to Malaysia as oppose to your claim. There are few examples, but one of the most solid one: before 95 Malaysia was being offered Hornet with latest radar, engine, self protect jammer and targeting pod. Dispite being upset by the 97 econ crisis, Boeing was acting aggressively to regain this lost market. Nontheless being an important player at one of the world's most strategic position, do note that Malaysia has a good tie on both sides of the world: Christianity vs Islamic. Along with other quality for example a mild government and a steady society, Malaysia is a potential ally, at least a good friend of the Americans. The friendship between these two country might not be strong enough to get everything pass the congress, but is good enough to get a miserable sqd of AESA S.Hornet.Politics matters to a large degree with respect to US sales to potential customers. That means a lot of things; strategic ties, closeness of ties and proliferation issues, etc all matter. Is the US offering the AGP-79 exactly to India or a lower ended Aesa version or simply a multi-mode radar version?
All these certainly cannot be said about Malaysia. These are the pros and cons which the US will weigh. India has never really been a so called Tier 1 customer to begin with. Can Malaysia buy MESA or afford Amraams in large numbers ? Larger than Singapore or Australia or Thailand?
Being cleared for weapons is one thing. Displacing a US ally strategically is a completely different thing. Malaysia will not get the AGp-79 until US allies in the region already have something better or new AESA radars in such large numbers that they do not tip the military balance in Malaysia`s favour vis-a-vis US allies and her strategic partners. That is a fact Malaysia will have to live with.
I do not think the US will take Malaysia-Iran ties for granted as well. The risks are all there.
Im sure every other country will say all the military secrets will guarded fiercely. Too bad no one really believes them too much. Especially the US. F-35 programme partners will know.
Malaysia is`nt exactly currently at the bottom of the heap among friendly countries when it comes to trust on the part of the US. But low enough.
As of the the Iran bla bla bla, they are irrelavent claim.
I think many ppl are placing Malaysia's too low on US radar (not true, many things are not reported in mainstream media)
and the first SH offer without AESA was made before APG-79 was operational, of course that have change
and we don't have to wait long to see if the election result affects defence spending or not, DSA is coming
and the first SH offer without AESA was made before APG-79 was operational, of course that have change
and we don't have to wait long to see if the election result affects defence spending or not, DSA is coming
weasel1962
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A
Aussie Digger
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Current production Super Hornets are Block II's, fitted with APG-79 AESA as the standard fit.
Block I Supers with APG-73 are no longer in production. The Block II's feature a re-designed forward fuselage to accomodate the new AESA radar. Is Boeing likely to start up production of "old" forward fuselages and older model APG-73 radars to accomodate a likely order of only 18x aircraft, IF Malaysia were to opt for this aircraft?
Unlikely.
AS seen in post 1715# in the Indian Air Force thread:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6713&page=115
Boeing has offered the APG-79 to India as part of it's proposal for the MRCA program.
Boeing has sold APG-79 to Australia.
It has offered it to Switzerland, Brazil and Norway, as well as Japan, South Korea and Singapore.
If Malaysia requests and is allowed the Super Hornet aircraft today, it will come with APG-79.
Malaysia was cleared in 2002 to acquire the then state of the art Super Hornet, with ALR-67 (v3) digital radar warning receiver, IDECM EW suite and the best avionics available for the aircraft at the time. Given the competitiveness of modern fighter programs, offering anything less than a fully capable aircraft is going to be a non-starter I'm afraid. I can't see that SH without APG-79 is worth it.
Conspiracy theories don't matter much in the face of reality...
weasel1962
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Ozzy Blizzard
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Malaysia is not a tier one alliy, and all of those nations are or are being wooed. The US denieing FMS of a single wepons system for various reasons is hardly a conspircay theory. What about JASSM to finland? APG 79 changes the game significantly in SEA and will to some extent displace two of the US's closest allies in the region. Therefore i'm schepitcal it will be aproved for sale in the next 10 years to the RMAF.
In any case even with AESA I dont think the RMAF should invest in annother western aircraft due to the unessisary logistcal complications.
On every MoD annual report, there will be a list of exercises that were completed within the year along with a short description. Unfortunately i dont have a copy of the lastest 2007 report as i am out of state for the period of release. But as i recall from the 06 report, there is 3 co-exercise with the USAF.
Cope Thunder at Eielson AFB, comprising Mej Koey Tang Chai from No 18 Skn. Cope Taufan, comprising 6 x MiG 29N(No 17/19 Skn), 4 x F/A-18D(No 18 Skn), 6 x Hawk(No 6 Skn), 8 x "F-18"(USAF)
PASSEX, comprising MiG-29N, "F-18" from USS Ronald Reagan CVW-15(probably mistaken with CVW-14)
I find no solid evidence that those "F-18" are E/F models.
Cope Thunder at Eielson AFB, comprising Mej Koey Tang Chai from No 18 Skn. Cope Taufan, comprising 6 x MiG 29N(No 17/19 Skn), 4 x F/A-18D(No 18 Skn), 6 x Hawk(No 6 Skn), 8 x "F-18"(USAF)
PASSEX, comprising MiG-29N, "F-18" from USS Ronald Reagan CVW-15(probably mistaken with CVW-14)
I find no solid evidence that those "F-18" are E/F models.