Hypothetical defence forces
- Thread starter korvo
- Start date
During the Cold War, was Bovania part of the Warsaw Pact? Was Norland part of NATO?
They likely still have some residual doctrine and hardware from that period.
Securing their borders and protecting their EEZs and lines of passage are probably their primary military concerns.
Both militaries are too small to contribute a large number of troops to peacekeeping operations, but they can have an impact with specialists in various areas.
They likely still have some residual doctrine and hardware from that period.
Securing their borders and protecting their EEZs and lines of passage are probably their primary military concerns.
Both militaries are too small to contribute a large number of troops to peacekeeping operations, but they can have an impact with specialists in various areas.
In regards to Norland I think 1500 regular forces and 500 reserves are too small of a force to support the equipment you have assigned them. They air units alone you have select would eat up most of the man power available.
Cut back the air units to a few recon/light attack craft. With such a small force manpads or truck/apc mounted air defense might be preferable, especially since the opposing force is also fairly small. I would suggest small fast missile boats as a naval force. With such a small force I would also suggest man portable anti-tank to compliment a guerilla-like defensive force. With mountainous terrain I would concentrate the land forces with long range small arms, mortars and man portable antitank/air weapons and ambush opposing forces.
Cut back the air units to a few recon/light attack craft. With such a small force manpads or truck/apc mounted air defense might be preferable, especially since the opposing force is also fairly small. I would suggest small fast missile boats as a naval force. With such a small force I would also suggest man portable anti-tank to compliment a guerilla-like defensive force. With mountainous terrain I would concentrate the land forces with long range small arms, mortars and man portable antitank/air weapons and ambush opposing forces.
Nah, not really. He could probably work that with a 200-250 man ground support squadron easily, especially if some auxiliary work is contracted out to civilians.
Swiftnbold
New Member
Korvo, the comments already received should have helped with the land forces, one further question - what is the distance between the two islands and how close are they to their larger neighbours?
I'd look at maybe an ex-Swedish Naval Corvettes (take a look at the Goteberg Class) as the "pride" of their fleet (complement about 35-40) with a supporting flotilla of 6 fast patrol boats (between 25 -35m - crew 10/20
and light aramament) for coastguard & fisheries protection and Rigid Hull Inflatables for the rest of their patrol work.
They are too small to be effective in anti-submarine operations - leave that to their larger neighbour but being reliant on the sea they would be interested in Mine Hunting/Clearance and would have at least one vessel dedicated to that task (manpower again about 35-40 including the mine-clearance diving team)
Add to this a mish-mash of various support/tender vessels - say 10 vessels and manpower at surface stations of 150. You'd probably be eating into about 350 of your regular forces with probably another 150 from the reservists.
Hope this helps
I'd look at maybe an ex-Swedish Naval Corvettes (take a look at the Goteberg Class) as the "pride" of their fleet (complement about 35-40) with a supporting flotilla of 6 fast patrol boats (between 25 -35m - crew 10/20
and light aramament) for coastguard & fisheries protection and Rigid Hull Inflatables for the rest of their patrol work.
They are too small to be effective in anti-submarine operations - leave that to their larger neighbour but being reliant on the sea they would be interested in Mine Hunting/Clearance and would have at least one vessel dedicated to that task (manpower again about 35-40 including the mine-clearance diving team)
Add to this a mish-mash of various support/tender vessels - say 10 vessels and manpower at surface stations of 150. You'd probably be eating into about 350 of your regular forces with probably another 150 from the reservists.
Hope this helps
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6
Bovania was in the same position like Finland and Norland was a neutral country with close ties to Sweden. since Sweden is very keen on its neutrality itself, Norland had to be able to organise its own air defence due to various incursions of Warpac patrol aircraft at the time. Both islands lie about 400 km apart and Bovania had claims in the past on Norlands outliying isles.
During the cold war, both forces were somewhat bigger, but only counting a few thousand members. About the "navy"; I was thinking about something along the lines of the icelandic coast guard, although with a little more forepower on their ships (including manpads) which should be sufficient for EEZ and mine-clearing and counting for about 150 man.
Ground forces are concentrated around the Eagle/Duro and provide a small contingent for peacekeeping forces (a la luxembourg). I am thinking about patrolwork and concoy protection. The air wing could have some work (eg maintenance) contracted to cicilian companies. Maybe I have to add another 500 personnel ;-) Funny actually, you get an imaginary island, 2000 man and then you have to imagine a defence force. Not easy, it already distracted me from work!
During the cold war, both forces were somewhat bigger, but only counting a few thousand members. About the "navy"; I was thinking about something along the lines of the icelandic coast guard, although with a little more forepower on their ships (including manpads) which should be sufficient for EEZ and mine-clearing and counting for about 150 man.
Ground forces are concentrated around the Eagle/Duro and provide a small contingent for peacekeeping forces (a la luxembourg). I am thinking about patrolwork and concoy protection. The air wing could have some work (eg maintenance) contracted to cicilian companies. Maybe I have to add another 500 personnel ;-) Funny actually, you get an imaginary island, 2000 man and then you have to imagine a defence force. Not easy, it already distracted me from work!
Swiftnbold
New Member
Korvo, I can see where you get the figures of 150 when you look at the Icelandic Coastguard but I'd still think that the numbers quoted are for officers/ratings crewing their "fleet". I think you can double that with the various smaller craft and ancillary staff I'd allow for.
The Icleandic model works far more on offshore territorial patrol than inshore EEZ protection, that's why I'd look at slightly more manpower and a few more fast patrol vessels.
Firepower wise I don't think they'd be fitted with much more than 40mm with 20mm making up the capability on the smaller patrol vessels.
The Icleandic model works far more on offshore territorial patrol than inshore EEZ protection, that's why I'd look at slightly more manpower and a few more fast patrol vessels.
Firepower wise I don't think they'd be fitted with much more than 40mm with 20mm making up the capability on the smaller patrol vessels.
The defence of Norland is the tuffest nut to crack, because of the small number om manpower in their defenceforce.
Here is my suggestion for the nayv:
For their navy I would suggest 4 vessels similar to the danish Standard Flex Flyvefisken Class, because they can be configered as Patrol Vessel, Guided Missile Vessel or Mine Vessel.
They could be supplementet by 10 smaller Rigid Hull Inflatables boats like the Boomeranger C-3500 to preforme costal patrol and Search & Rescue duties.
That would take an estimate 300-350 men from the regular manpower for complement and support for the ships. Prehaps half the C-3500 could be manned by multiply crewes from the reserve forces and stationed around in the smaller ports of the the country.
Here is my suggestion for the nayv:
For their navy I would suggest 4 vessels similar to the danish Standard Flex Flyvefisken Class, because they can be configered as Patrol Vessel, Guided Missile Vessel or Mine Vessel.
They could be supplementet by 10 smaller Rigid Hull Inflatables boats like the Boomeranger C-3500 to preforme costal patrol and Search & Rescue duties.
That would take an estimate 300-350 men from the regular manpower for complement and support for the ships. Prehaps half the C-3500 could be manned by multiply crewes from the reserve forces and stationed around in the smaller ports of the the country.
Overkill.
I'd propose two to three (new) Kbv 301 / SAR20 for the navy, uparmed with a 20mm up front.
One or two larger patrol/utility vessels - say ex-East-German Kondor-I/II acquired post-Cold-War and appropriately rearmed, potentially even with some light anti-ship/anti-aircraft armament (refitted to Hellfire/RBS-70 later on or something like that).
Ship crews would be around 75-100 men, add about the same again on the ground for the navy.
I'd ditch any "extra" RIBs (not on ships) anyway, and have the government shelve any such close patrol role with police forces, where they belong.
Above would also fit with the original basic idea of "2 patrol ships and some smaller vessels".
I'd propose two to three (new) Kbv 301 / SAR20 for the navy, uparmed with a 20mm up front.
One or two larger patrol/utility vessels - say ex-East-German Kondor-I/II acquired post-Cold-War and appropriately rearmed, potentially even with some light anti-ship/anti-aircraft armament (refitted to Hellfire/RBS-70 later on or something like that).
Ship crews would be around 75-100 men, add about the same again on the ground for the navy.
I'd ditch any "extra" RIBs (not on ships) anyway, and have the government shelve any such close patrol role with police forces, where they belong.
Above would also fit with the original basic idea of "2 patrol ships and some smaller vessels".
With the amount of ppl you have left for ground forces, you could do about a full bataillon, or a regiment - depending on how you want to call it for political/historic reasons.
Maybe three such companies, add a fire support coy with Mortars and Hellfire and a staff coy.
External from that (or integrated), about one company for engineers and NBC-Defense (mixed), an air-defense unit, medical platoon, military police platoon. MP platoon and medical could also be hooked in the staff coy.
About 800-900 men total at least.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #12
Thanks Kato! So we have around 300 for the maritime wing, 300 for the air wing and about 900 left for the ground forces + about 500 man reserves provided that a number of issues are subcontracted to civilian companies. In total we have a (small) brigade sized force if am correct? In addition to the light armourde vehicles, I was thinking of a small number of Bvs-10 that can carry my 120mm mortars. Overkill or plausible for small mountainous island?
It'd be unlikely for your mortars to face direct attack (at least in this setup), so armor isn't really needed.
I'd go with regular, unarmored, Bv-206D if you really want tracked. Much cheaper too.
Question would be whether the terrain of the island requires tracked vehicles. If it's well-developed, somewhat densely populated, with a good road network, there shouldn't really be a need for them.
We have a overstrength regiment here, not a brigade. Of course, in several nations, it'd be called a brigade for political reasons.
In my opinion the air wing is overkill btw. Problem is that the size is already down to the point where it's simply a yes or no question - you could probably still bump it down to six fighters, but even then there really needs to be a good reason for this (rather costly) acquisition.
I can only think of generally two scenarios for such an acquisition:
1) would be that Bovania recently acquired a similar fighter capacity, and generally relies a lot on air warfare in doctrine; Sweden would also have to have denied Norland "fighter cover", leading to Norland acquiring its own capability in that regard.
2) would be an external pressure scheme (by Sweden!) in which Norland was required to buy these Gripens to "offset" some sort of international relationship toubles.
3) would be - simple - corruption.
In OTL, nations such as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Luxembourg, all with comparable or larger armies to the two outlined for Norland or Bovania, don't operate any fighters at all.
If you really want/need a fighter squadron for Norland, i'd suggest something cheaper and "smaller" - say 4-5 light attack aircraft such as Hawk 51 or 100.
Would fit in better with the overall picture.
I'd go with regular, unarmored, Bv-206D if you really want tracked. Much cheaper too.
Question would be whether the terrain of the island requires tracked vehicles. If it's well-developed, somewhat densely populated, with a good road network, there shouldn't really be a need for them.
We have a overstrength regiment here, not a brigade. Of course, in several nations, it'd be called a brigade for political reasons.
In my opinion the air wing is overkill btw. Problem is that the size is already down to the point where it's simply a yes or no question - you could probably still bump it down to six fighters, but even then there really needs to be a good reason for this (rather costly) acquisition.
I can only think of generally two scenarios for such an acquisition:
1) would be that Bovania recently acquired a similar fighter capacity, and generally relies a lot on air warfare in doctrine; Sweden would also have to have denied Norland "fighter cover", leading to Norland acquiring its own capability in that regard.
2) would be an external pressure scheme (by Sweden!) in which Norland was required to buy these Gripens to "offset" some sort of international relationship toubles.
3) would be - simple - corruption.
In OTL, nations such as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Luxembourg, all with comparable or larger armies to the two outlined for Norland or Bovania, don't operate any fighters at all.
If you really want/need a fighter squadron for Norland, i'd suggest something cheaper and "smaller" - say 4-5 light attack aircraft such as Hawk 51 or 100.
Would fit in better with the overall picture.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #14
You're right about the tracked vehicles; mortars can simply be towed by trucks or jeeps. Regarding the air wing; Norland is a neutral country, but leaning towards Sweden which is a neutral country as well. Therefore Sweden could not openly provide aircover or other military assistance which resulted in a small Norlandian fighter force, to intercept Warpac aircraft during the cold war and nowadays to provide for an airdefence umbrella "in case of" . Bovania also has a small number of fighter aircraft; because it was located close to Warpac. In this hypothetical scenario, Bovania has a squadron of about 12 Sukhoi flanker aircraft.
note that smaller countries like Estonia and others had a small air force before WWII. In another scenario, a token armed component coould be formed by aircraft like PC-9 or light jets like Hawk,... On the other hand, you're right - 8 Gripens would be rather expensive, even when leasing!
for the rest of the air wing, I was thinking of 2 small transport aircraft like the M28 skytruck, 2 AW139 SAR helicopters and 2 A109 LUH. And maybe something like a kingair liaison aircraft.
-edit-because of the proximity of sweden: Saab 105's with AIM-9?
note that smaller countries like Estonia and others had a small air force before WWII. In another scenario, a token armed component coould be formed by aircraft like PC-9 or light jets like Hawk,... On the other hand, you're right - 8 Gripens would be rather expensive, even when leasing!
for the rest of the air wing, I was thinking of 2 small transport aircraft like the M28 skytruck, 2 AW139 SAR helicopters and 2 A109 LUH. And maybe something like a kingair liaison aircraft.
-edit-because of the proximity of sweden: Saab 105's with AIM-9?
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I am missing some sort of training- and supplyunit. If you take the army of Luxembourg wich has about 900 troops, the only combat units is two reccecompanies supported by mortars and TOW.
So I think, that your suggestion is a bit positive regarding the number of jäger compagnies and combatsupportunits.
About the number of aircrafts I think, that you are on the right track. 4-5 light attack airplanes, 2 small transportplanes and 4 helicopters.
I would personaly prefere the Hawk over the Saab 105, because I think, that the swedes could come under regional pressure not to deliver spareparts to the Saab planes, if a conflict between Norland and Bovania sould arrise.
The M28 skytruck could be a possibility if equipped with a searchradar and FLIR, so it also could preforme SAR, border- and maritime patrols besides a secundary role as transportplanes.
I would only want one type of helicopters to keep down the logistisk and costs. The type sould be able to preforme the roles of SAR, transport and liaison.
Edit:
How large is the area of the two states ?
Training can be done "in-house". Switch through the companies for basic training, depending on how many call-ups you have per year. Considering the small number, probably works with three call-ups per year (for a professional army) - hmm, ~375 fresh per year for 1500? Averages to 4 years "regular" service time, should work quite well.
Worked 40 years for the Bundeswehr Heer, until they switched to dedicated training units in 2004 or so.
Regarding supply: internal units - a platoon at btl level, same for the air wing. Maybe an active squad handling a single depot.
Other than that, civilian supply infrastructure should work well enough within the home-country, at least for common goods.
There could also be a dedicated supply/infrastructure unit within the reserves that could be called up for out-of-area deployments or wartime.
If we are talking about a professional army, I think, that is quit a large number to recruit every year. If we were talking about that number of conscripts every year, I think the numbers would fit. But actually we dont know, if korvo had conscription or a professional army in mind ?
Calculation... 500,000 people as stated by him, makes for roughly 3000 males reaching military age per year. So it's probably not conscription, if it's not highly selective.
But yeah, 4 years average is probably too low. 6-7 years average -> 215-250 recruits per year. Anything over 7 years average would be really high, or rather would result in a really low percentage of enlisted personnel.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #19
The size of Norland is somewhat bigger than Luxembourg; let's say about one and a half time bigger. Bovania is a bit bigger than Gotland island. I was indeed thinking of a professional army - the reserves being a parttime unit along the lines the US national guard. Having a small population, part of the job needs to be done by paid volunteers!
I thought the saabs would be a good idea because of twin engine safety over the baltic? Furthermore, their pilottraining could be done in Sweden
I thought the saabs would be a good idea because of twin engine safety over the baltic? Furthermore, their pilottraining could be done in Sweden
If the reserves are a paid parttime force, I would bring in my earlier sugestion of 10 smaller Rigid Hull Inflatables boats like the Boomeranger C-3500 again. Each could be crewed of 3-4 men.
They could be manned by the naval reserve and have multiply crewes, so they would be able to be on stand by 24-7 to performe costal patrol and Search & Rescue duties. That would take about 100 men of the total reserveforce.