Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[alexsa]

Plus our altimeters will be in millibars instead of the non-metric US-equivalent!

Haven't we been round and round (and round again) this whole F-15/Super Hornet/F-22 debate???

I know this thread is dozens of pages and hundreds of posts long, but it's like groundhog day everytime I log in to it!

I have to agree and its making me giddy. The situation is not helped by the current DefMINs (backed by a pathetic press) point scoring. A bit of decent invetigative and objective journalism would resolve all these issue but you would have to get one of our media outlets to run with.

PS I refuse to call them news media as in many cases current reporting bears a stricking resemblance to uninformed opinion and, occasionally, outright fiction.

 

[AegisFC]

The Aegis SPY1 radars have been sold to Australia, Spain and I believe Singapore.

Not Singapore.

 

[Todjaeger]

Not Singapore.

This is getting rather divorced from the RAAF, but SPY-1 radar has been sold or authorized for Japan, Spain, Norway and Australia, same goes with the Aegis fire control/combat data system.

As for the F-22 getting authorized for Australia, there are a whole host of issues with regards to doing so. This should not become another F-22 thread, but some of the issues (aside from it is currently illegal) cover maintaining operational security on F-22 capabilities, control of VLO tech to geo-political concerns, which could be of even greater concern.

As for an export "F-22B" the first question that comes to mind would be, who would really be interested? Would a toned down F-22 export, with detuned VLO (or perhaps non-VLO) and other features, be a more attractive ATA fighter than other, developed and in production ATA fighters? I am thinking of the Typhoon in particular.

If it was decided that the RAAF did need a primary ATA fighter and the choice was between the Typhoon and an "F-22B" I suspect the Typhoon would be a better option, unless the US and/or LockMart would pickup up the ~US$1 billion in development costs prior to production.

-Cheers

 

[AGRA]

My question is, what is so secret on the F-22 specifically that would preclude them selling it to Australia?

There are alot of advanced stuff on the Joint Strike Fighter which is being offered to a range of Clients. This includes the latest stealth technology.

This is a very repetitive thread for those of us that have followed it over the last year or so. But such is the cyclic nature of life…

The problem with exporting the F-22A is not so much the ‘capability’ inside it (like stealth, etc) but the technological and industrial processes used to create that capability. For the F-22A coming from the 1980s Advanced Technology Fighter (ATF) program these capabilities were sourced from highly secret technology and industrial processes. Much like the F-117, B-2 and SR-71. Exporting one of these aircraft can effectively give the destination country access to this technology so they can replicate it.

The F-35 and Block II F/A-18E/F source their technology from a program (JAST, alter JSF) conceived from the beginning as being a multi-national endeavour. So their capability uses technology and industrial processes the USA is happy to export.

For example (fictional) the F-22A may be manufactured out of a particular alloy of Titanium that the USA does not want other nations to have access to. The F-35 will use Titanium but common international alloys. To make the F-22 exportable it will need to be rebuilt with the new F-35 type Titanium alloy. While the difference in final capability between the alloys may not be significant there would need to be extensive engineering cost to ensure that the weapon system can still work with the new Ti alloy and the production line would have to be reset to include it.

The US have happily sold Australia the combat system from the Virginia class SSNs for our Collins class.

But the hardware of the BYG-2 is just COTS computer technology. Not much different to what's in many of the computers we are using to populate this forum. The real edge in BYG-2 is the US Government's software that makes it all work. If Australia starts exporting a new PC operating system that bears an amazing resemblance to the tactical system of BYG-2 then they may reconsider the Submarine Combat System MoU.

and Australia jointly operates Pine Gap with the US.

I think what really worries the US is export of the F-22A to Japan and Korea who have a reputation for taking technology from US sourced weapons and using it in their civilian industry. Because on an alliance level Australia and the US is not much different to Japan/Korea and the US they can't pick and chose on something as open and public as major weapon system exports. if they did so they would be accused of playing favourites or even racism.

This is a tough position for the USA and their best course is the Obey Amendo – saying no. Besides the F-35 will be available in seven years and its just as good.

 

[Magoo]

This is getting rather divorced from the RAAF, but SPY-1 radar has been sold or authorized for Japan, Spain, Norway and Australia, same goes with the Aegis fire control/combat data system.

...and Korea.

 

[winnyfield]

Hidden within a related story: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23282521-31477,00.html

Business as usual on the combat aircraft front

[February 27, 2008]
......

Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Procurement Greg Combet made it clear yesterday the Government was likely to go ahead with the $6.6 billion contract for 24 Boeing FA-18 Super Hornets, which will replace the F-111 fighter bomber from 2010, and the planned introduction of up to 100 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters from 2014, a contract worth up to $16 billion.

......

Joining the JSF versus the Boeing F-22 Raptor fighter debate, Mr Combet said there had been a lot of misinformed commentary about the Lockheed Martin JSF, which was "a highly sophisticated aircraft possessing stealth technology, significant payload capability and the capacity to link with other forces"

.....

 

[Todjaeger]

...and Korea.

D'Oh! Forgot the South Korean Deathstars...

 

[swerve]

How would a Japanese pilot be flying a F-22 to China if the F-22 will not be sold to other countries? If you said the F-35 then it would be a different story.

It's a reply to a suggestion that one reason the USA would be reluctant to sell F-22 to Japan is fear of a Japanese pilot flying his F-22 to China. Pay attention!

 

[thorpete1]

The JSF will be fine for AUS, its a highly capable aircraft, with excellent ATA and ATG capabilities and new systems that not even the F-22A has (Like DAS or EOTS). THe F-35 may not be as good in the ATA role as the F-22 but a requirement of the JSF program was that it be second only to the F-22 in ATA combat according to global security.

"Plans call for the F-35 to be the world's premier strike aircraft through 2040. It will provide air- to-air capability second only to the F-22 air superiority fighter" (sourced from Global Security).

And in the the air to ground role, which is important to australia as we have an army about the size of that of germany after the the treaty of versailles, the F-35 will beat the F-22 any day any time any where.

The F-22 is the best at ATA but Australia needs a multirole aircraft good at both ATA and ATG.

The F-35 is going to serve australia well. The F-22 is simply something that we would like but don't need all that much.

 

[Stryker001]

!

It's a reply to a suggestion that one reason the USA would be reluctant to sell F-22 to Japan is fear of a Japanese pilot flying his F-22 to China. Pay attention!

The PRC would pay a lot of money for an F-22 from Japan; yes, they would give it back probably in pieces. Flying an F-35 well there is no need; espionage will take care of those issues.Stranger things have happened.

Moreover Russia and China don’t wish to see the proliferation of the F-22 to American allies, so the issue is a double edge sword.

 

[Pro'forma]

I would say F-35 is totally diffegent fighter and languor to F22.

Rooted perhaps U.S , using international air just perfectly.

 

[stray_kiwi]

I just read that Joel Fitzgibbon has announced that the Labor government are reviewing Defence projects, in particular the SH deal. There is also a claim in the Reuters article (sorry cannot post the URL) that he asked the USA if the F22 was available for export.

Anyone got any better information about this development?

 

[swerve]

The PRC would pay a lot of money for an F-22 from Japan; ....

They'd also give a lot of money for a USAF F-22, but the USAF deployed some temporarily to Japan recently, apparently not afraid of defections. I ask again, why do you think a Japanese pilot - but not an American pilot - would fly his F-22 to China? Do you think Japanese pilots are more likely to be traitors? And if so, why? Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but that seems to be what you're saying.

This is somewhat off-topic, but I'd like to clarify the matter before ending this digression.

 

[Tasman]

I just read that Joel Fitzgibbon has announced that the Labor government are reviewing Defence projects, in particular the SH deal. There is also a claim in the Reuters article (sorry cannot post the URL) that he asked the USA if the F22 was available for export.

Anyone got any better information about this development?

I suggest you read pages 57 - 61 of this thread, beginning with Post 850 about the Review. There has been heaps of information posted and a lot of discussion about both these matters.

Tas

 

[Stryker001]

!

Mod edit:

What has this to do with the Royal Australian Air Force?

AD

 

[Sea Toby]

I doubt whether the US Congress will allow any foreign sales of the Raptors. From an American point of view, while the more we sale abroad may reduce their overall price, in the long run we have to buy more than we sale. And at their price, we can't afford much more of them.

The aircraft we want to build much more of is the Lightning II, its price is much more favorable for everyone, and its more of an all purpose aircraft. While the rest of the world may want us to spend our fortune developing every aircraft to its upmost, its better for our wallets if we limit and choose which program and aircraft we wish to pursue development.

 

[flyboyEB]

Hi all,
I was just wondering, does the RAAF know what thy're are going to replace the Caribou with, since they are appearantly being replaced by 2011? If the ADF wants a similar sort of aircraft, why doesn't the Army get more Chinooks? They have a similar speed, payload and you can't get much more STOL than a helicopter. Or is the ADF looking for something bigger and better to replace the Caribou?

Also, has anyone else heard what Mr Fitzgibbon has said about putting women in combat roles? Can't find the URL but Google should help anyone interested

The Infantry are a big no-no, because they're 'foot soldiers' he says, but the Airfield Defence Guards are a possibility. I thought the ADGies were like Infantry except with nicer uniforms, so I don't know what Mr Fitzgibbon is on about. But I can assume that it will raise a few sniggers from the RAInf

 

[Tasman]

Hi all,
I was just wondering, does the RAAF know what thy're are going to replace the Caribou with, since they are appearantly being replaced by 2011? If the ADF wants a similar sort of aircraft, why doesn't the Army get more Chinooks? They have a similar speed, payload and you can't get much more STOL than a helicopter. Or is the ADF looking for something bigger and better to replace the Caribou?

It seems that the C-27J is the favourite (the C-295 is still a possibility), with the army also getting extra Chinooks (purchase of three was flagged by the former Defmin before the election but it has not been confirmed by the new government). Earlier posts in this thread have discussed the future composition and mix of RAAF transport aircraft (e.g. Post 826 on P56).

Tas

 

[The Big I]

Hey all I'm new to this board, I'm a military enthusiast and have been lurking on this board for a few weeks. I have a question why wouldn't we look to replacing the F-111 with a SU-34 which has similiar capabilities, I ask because I'm following another debate on yahoo that keep whinging about wasting our money on US stuff so what is the opinion on the
board.

Admin Text Deleted. We don't allow cross linking to other forums. And going by the calibre of the debate, there are about 3 people in there who actually do have a clue.

Personally I feel the superhornet is a excellent aircraft and we are getting a great deal, assuming the F-35 turns up and is as advertised we should keep them convert them to the growler/ buddy tanker configuration which would be a great supplement the F-35.

What if the F-35 is a dud what would be the frontrunner to fill its position??

 

[Sea Toby]

Do you really think the F-35 Lightning IIs will be a dud? The same plant that built the F-111s and F-16s would or could possibly crank out a dud, after going through a competition with Boeing? The same company, Lockheed Martin, that is building the F-22 Raptors?

Sorry, I don't think so. The aircraft is already flying in all its versions. While it may be the second best fighter in the world, without question it will be the best fighter/bomber in the world. And with the Americans not selling the F-22 abroad, doesn't it make sense you'll have the best aircraft outside the USA in the world? And I would not be holding my breath if you expect the US to sell F-22s abroad within the next two decades.

Do you really think Australia can pay more than $200 million for each F-22? Isn't expecting to pay over $90-100 million for each F-35 enough, or does Australia print money? And I am talking US dollars, not Australian dollars.

The Super Hornets will do a great job replacing your old Hornets. And frankly, the USAF phased out the F-111s after the first Gulf war more than fifteen years ago. When you finally get the Lightnings, you will be able to use the Super Hornets as Growlers.

And please notice, India is not to happy with spare parts delivery from Russia at the moment. Do you want to add your country to the long list of unhappy customers? I didn't think so.

The United States of America don't have any other plans. America is expecting to order over 2,000 of the Lighning IIs. And while there are available Eurofighters and Griffens, don't expect to replace 75 Hornets by 2015.