FOSM PLAN strategy and tactics

Truculent

New Member
Lets assume that you are the new Flag Officer Submarines of the PLAN.You have a large force of conventional and nuclear submarines,however your service does not have a long tradition of Submarine operation.
What do you do with your force?Single patrols or Wolfpacks?
How many times a year do you think it should go to sea?
Do you trust your officers not to defect?
Do you think your force is effective?
Do you trust your force to win a battle or provide an effective deterrent?


ps I am not Chinese
 

kilo

New Member
defect? I think you've read too much Clancy. a Hunt for Red October type scenario is very very unlikely in the real world.

As for the other questions I think definately some sort of task group maybe 3 modern conventionals together would have some success. when one gets shot by torpedoes coming out of nowhere the other two can circle the wagons and try to make a defense. This is if you want to fight Americans by the way. Maybe a large group of Nuclear boats could travel down a path guarded by mines set by conventionals to make an attack on a base or task force using sea mobile mines.
 

crobato

New Member
Currently the PLAN sub fleet acts like two separate sub fleets, each with its own doctrines, mission roles and agenda. The first one, made of conventional subs, definitely now train in using wolf pack tactics. They would seem to prowl all the way to the east side of the Taiwan coast. Their basic combat unit is a flotilla of four subs, which consists of all Songs, Song-Yuan mix, all Kilo or all Mings. With the Yuans now the current production model, you may probably see the first all Yuan flotilla this year, instead of individual Yuans plugging up the balance of the Song flotillas. The Songs and Yuans are not strictly coastal defense as many would like to believe, the sheer size of the Songs and the Yuans belie that. The Song is at least 75m long, and the Yuan is around 78m long, while in contrast, a Kilo is about 66m.

These wolf packs are coordinated with the main surface fleet, along with elements of the PLANAF and the PLAAF. When it comes to large scale joint exercises, these are the ones you come to hear being talked about. For that matter, they seem to be the "main" sub fleet.

The second fleet is the nuclear sub fleet, and they seem to operate in singles, or pairs. Their purpose might seem to be more for power projection, infiltration, and nuclear deterrence as opposed to just sea denial. Their core element seems to be the 094 SSBNs, with one or two 093 SSNs meant to escort them. It seems a bit schizo, but I have the impression the nuclear sub fleet is a navy within a navy.
 

Truculent

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
According to a FAS study the submarine force seem to spend very little time at sea .It has also been suggested that they may be trying to develop a wolf pack tactic.Does anybody believe that the Chinese are competent enough to use their boats in such a developed way?
 

crobato

New Member
According to a FAS study the submarine force seem to spend very little time at sea .
I got studies that say otherwise, including a Taiwan report that indicates activity eastern and south of Taiwan. There was especially some serious activity around November 2007, when the SSKs on the ESF and SSF t conducted joint exercises with the ESF and SSF surface fleets. A Song also escorted the DDG 167 Shenzhen on its way to its Japan visit, and the pair had a course parallel to the Kitty Hawk on its way back to Yokusuka.

From Taiwan's Vice Defense Minister to Yomiuri Shinbun interview

Ko Chen-heng: "Chinese warships sailed across what China conceives as the "first defense line" (running from off Japan through Taiwan to Singapore) once or twice a year in the latter half of 1990s. But the frequency has increased to five or six times in the past year or two. This indicates China's political intention to demonstrate that the Taiwan Strait is an "internal sea of China."

"Chinese submarines have been expanding the area of their operations into the high seas, increasing their activities off the eastern and southern parts of Taiwan. They are expected to increase their activities in the Bashi Channel in the future. Due to the improvement in naval technology, it has become difficult to conduct antisubmarine patrol activities. China aims to ward off U.S. aircraft carriers in times of emergency, at the Taiwan Strait."

It has also been suggested that they may be trying to develop a wolf pack tactic.Does anybody believe that the Chinese are competent enough to use their boats in such a developed way?
They have been training for it since 2004. This is about the first time I've heard such tactics are used as per PLA official reports.

This from the CDF.

From U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence, 2007 report

Submarine Force Training
Reforms
Based on the revised OMTE issued in 2002, the
PLAN is developing and implementing new
and more realistic tactics and combat methods
to enable its submarines to be able to attack,
survive after an attack, and maintain the capability
to attack again at a later time. This is
a change from previous tactics, which focused
primarily on attacking and less on defense before
and after an attack.

Under the new OMTE, submarine training now
focuses on completing attacks and then breaking
safely through the enemy’s antisubmarine
positions. This, it is hoped, will allow submarines
the opportunity to attack again later.
Based on the revised OMTE, PLAN submarine
units have adopted the following reforms:

The old concept of single submarines departing
early in the morning and returning
late on the same day was replaced
with the concept of multiple submarines
conducting navigation training together
over multiple days throughout the day
and night.


The old concept of single submarines
conducting independent training was replaced
with multiple submarines attacking
as a task force.

• The PLAN replaced the old basic training
method of simple and redundant training
with mission-oriented training subjects.

• The old method of training on single submarine
tactics per sortie was replaced with
training on several combined-arms tactics
simultaneously in a combined-arms environment.

• The revised OMTE calls for significant
training advances in all three fleets for
“damaged” submarines and to rescue a
submerged submarine in distress.
• The submarine force has also increased its
use of simulator training.

Finally, the PLAN has begun extending both
the range for some of its submarines and increasing
the duration of some training events,
including training during poor weather conditions.
All of these training reforms have affected
how the submarine force provides logistics
and maintenance support before, during, and
after each training event.
 

Truculent

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Crobato would you be so kind as to state your sources please?
Also I believe that elections are in the offing in Taiwan and this may colour certain views.
 

crobato

New Member
I did. One is from Taiwan's vice defense minister, which is not an electoral position by the way, and the other is from ONI.

Besides, when you state this, this is not exactly what FAS said.

"According to a FAS study the submarine force seem to spend very little time at sea."

it should say "patrols" and then FAS questions the nature and definition what the USN actually considers a "patrol". I don't think the PLAN does a lot of long range patrols and they are focused much closer to their coast. Once in a while, their nukes get out long into the sea to stretch their legs.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Crobato would you be so kind as to state your sources please?
Also I believe that elections are in the offing in Taiwan and this may colour certain views.
A few points, Crobato is hitting a bullseye in this thread. Everything he is saying that you require links for has been linked and sourced on my blog, just hit the China tag and have fun.

Second I would encourage Weasel not to look at the PLAN tactically, rather strategically. The SSK fits very well into a an area denial / anti-access strategy for the 1st and 2nd island chain strategies that have been well discussed. They can provide excellent scouting capabilities within those regions to support combined arms (FACs, missiles, air strikes) or can act independently to deny potential adversaries lines of communication at sea.

I think Crabato's Navy within a Navy analogy is interesting, because in many ways the PLAN is developing a two fleet Navy. One is in the context of a strategic defensive, which focuses on FACs and SSKs supported by land based firepower from the mainland, while the second appears to be a blue water force for projecting power, both hard and soft, and the PLAN is taking a very patient approach to its development.

One gets the impression that blue water force development is deliberately slow to allow training and technology to mature while infrastructure and economic, political, and other internal infrastructure resources are further developed. In that context the blue water force can also be seen as part of a strategic defensive strategy, because it is intended to reinforce and defend China's interests within the sea lines of communication that link the mainland to its markets, which may be as far as South America or Africa.
 

crobato

New Member
Franky I don't see every PLAN sub development as Taiwan-anti US intervention focused.

Two words = Jin class.

The SSBNs, which the PLAN invested to build at least 3 copies of, have zero value Taiwan scenario anti-carrier value. Suffice to say, I am not going to repeat why and what many others have already paid too much time to explain.

An 094 might just be the most expensive PLAN ship to date, with only the 052C Lanzhou class behind it followed by the 093 Shang.

The carrier project itself does not have much of a Taiwan perspective value. Rather it seems more of a distraction of resources.

The 093 Shang? It is said that an SSN ranges from 3x to 5x the cost of an SSN. For one Shang, you probably can get 3 to 5 Yuans, which might even be quieter to boot. For one Jin, you probably get as much Yuans and more, probably add more 054A Jiangkai IIs and even more of the 052D DDG.

Furthermore, why are you pursuing both AIP and nuclear power simultaneously? Countries that pursue AIP have two reasons behind that, one because they have drawn a line on the use of nuclear power, and two, those that are already using nuclear power are planning to use AIP as an export product.

Note also who are making them.

All the nuclear sub development and production is located only in one area---Huludao. Not one is produced in any of the shipyards in the south. Note the carrier is also parked in the north.

The southern shipyards however, starting from Wushan, are the ones building the Songs and the Yuans. Not one of these SSKs are built in Huludao. Not surprisingly too, the 022s were designed and manufactured in the south primarily, and only lately production were added to the north.

In any navy there will always be a battle of ideas. The PLAN is no exception. There will be those who favor the surface fleet, and those who prefer the sub fleet. There are those who prefer the carrier approach. There are those who want to pursue the blue water as those who want to focus on the brown water. And among the submariners, there are is always the constant debate between conventional and nuclear.

As the force has its modernization growth pains, there is going to be internal debate on all the issues, and so the PLAN is beginning to take exploratory steps to all the issues. Given the lack of a history in modern navy keeping, they have no tradition or experience of their own to study upon, and at the same time, you have an ethos that emphasizes the empirical approach and the Nike motto, "Just Do it".

Weasel, you can take all the references and articles but in the end, they're just words in a piece of paper. If they cannot explain what you can now observe what's going on with the PLAN, then they cannot explain it. There are many people who have invested themselves in the dogma that whatever the PLAN does, has something to do with Taiwan or against the US, but this dogma is showing problems about explaining many of the recent events and changes within the PLAN. You can call it the Taiwan myopia.

A Taiwan focus may have been the focus of the PLAN during Jiang Zhemin's era, but in Hu Jin Tao's era that has begun to seriously change.
 

crobato

New Member
Is anyone claiming that the missiles on the Jin class won't be targeted at the US?

The US is the only country to have threatened to use and use nukes. China happens to be one of the few entities that got one of those threats.

The Jin-class SSGNs maintains a nuclear answer against a US nuke strategy. That's 2 words nearer to a anti-US taiwan centric strategy.
If you recall, the Soviet Union did threaten to blow China out of the globe, and in fact, at one point, seemed more dedicated in planning to do it to China rather than the US. The Xia was originally meant against the Russians, and the Russians did include French boomers and the Chinese boomer as issues during their SALT talks.

The cost of Shangs merely reiterate a consistent strategy of the PLAN to expand its capabilities. If SSKs were sufficient, the PLAN wouldn't spend 3-5 times that of SSKs just to develop the Shangs.

SSNs and AIP SSK are both strategies to expand the ranges of subs. Now when one looks at the PLAN strategically, what are the motives for having extended range subs?
Except that AIP SSK does not offer anything over an SSN and increases furthermore the cost of an SSK, which is one of the attractive points over the SSN.

What we are seeing today is an evolving PLAN rather than a PLAN that is focussed on developing a navy within a navy.
They are testing many different ideas simultaneously. But the idea of a navy within a navy is still there, much like 2nd Artillery is not subordinate to the PLA. For example, I seem to note that the SSK and the SSN fleets don't share the same bases.

They may exercise against each other, but I don't think they exercise with each other. SSKs and SSNs don't tactically mix well either. Its like oil and water. You can't wolfpack SSKs and SSNs in the same group; it only neutralizes each other's advantages.

Anyone who thinks Taiwan isn't top of the agenda is seriously underestimating the issue. It has happened before when Truman and MacArthur ignored the warning signs and thought that China wouldn't intervene in North Korea. History tends to repeat itself...
Regardless of any paper you point out or anyone you quote, the facts are still out there. The Taiwan theory alone does not satisfactorily explain all the behavior and trends seen with the PLAN right now. Despite the rather bravado in their November exercises. we are now seeing a China---and a PLAN---that is beginning to see the need of a national destiny and strategy that goes way past Taiwan. Taiwan itself can't destroy China, but long term geopolitical issues, such as resources, can do far more damage in China's future than Taiwan ever will.
 

crobato

New Member
Let's look at the facts, shall we?

(1) China and Russia created the SCO.
(2) Russia provides China with a lot of military and production assistance.
(3) China and Russia have settled border disputes.
Yes, but have Russia stopped pointing its nukes at China?

Russia's own growing nationalism itself has not put China on a good light, citing for instance, the influence China has over its Siberian territories.

That alone eliminates Russia as a potential adversary or target for the new Jins. Whilst I agree that Russia may have been a potential adversary in the past, I think today, the focus is primarily on the US which supports my argument.

(4) China signed the ASEAN treaty of amity
(5) China is trying to settle border issues with India
And did that stop those bellicose threats from Indian media about how Sagarika is pointed at China?

(6) China is developing its amphibious landing capabilities with new amph tanks, ships and other support capabilities
Which can apply to just about everything.

(7) China exercises its subs in operations against US carriers and bases eg Guam, Okinawa.
Chinese subs nor bombers don't go chasing around US battlegroups in exercise in Guam and Okinawa.

(8) It has increased its number of amphibious landing exercises
(9) It is developing new anti-ship capabilities with LGBs, anti-ship missiles
(10) It is building new subs and surface ships capable of escorting amphibious ships
You're making the same mistake everyone else is. Every country develops capability, but you're expecting this capability is already pointed at someone else. None of these says its particularly aimed at the US or Taiwan. All this is just generally aimed at anyone who would threaten China.

(11) It continues to place heavy pressures on Taiwan in the diplomatic and political fronts
So they want to achieve their goal through nonviolent means, so?

Which part of the above doesn't apply to Taiwan? I think brushing away the above as just part of an expanding Chinese identity is very strange to say the least.
Act of muscular diplomacy does not mean that the weapons developed is intended as the target of the recipient of that diplomacy.

Can you explain what is the purpose of the type 71, the new LCACs, the continuing productions of new amph APCs, tanks etc. Is this in defence of Hainan dao or for an invasion of Japan or the Philippines?
So if the US produces the Zumwalt, is that intended against Iran because the US has some tough talk against Iran. Is the B-2 bomber just meant to be against China or against US enemies in general? Is the F-22 fighter just meant to be against Russia or against US enemies in general?

And how many LPDs China has made so far? One.


Despite your generalisations about Chinese actions, reality is that you still have not pointed out a single specific activity that the PLAN is performing that cannot be explained to an anti-US Taiwan centric strategy.
I have clarified to you that the Jins have zero value on a Taiwan centric strategy. That's already been explained thoroughly in this forum. A lot of other PLAN's actions have zero or arguable value on a Taiwan centric strategy against alternative more optimal strategies.


From informationalization to logistics to training to equipment improvements and acquisition strategies, all of which improves its ability to handle a Taiwan operation, yet to claim that Taiwan is not a focal point does not appear to be consistent with the facts.

And which facts are you pointing out?

Despite your wanting to wave away Taiwan as an issue, the PLA and Chinese Government has consistently maintained Taiwan as a focal point of its military actions.

Perhaps the PLA may evolve eventually to a focus that does not involve Taiwan but from my perspective, that is a long, long, long way away.

My apologies once again for disagreeing but I am merely stating what I see. I think our points of view is different and I can respect that.
And from your perspective have you directly analyzed each and every move the PLAN makes? If you want a Taiwan centric strategy, you should have an orbat and a makeup consistent and optimal to a Taiwan centric strategy. By this you would need a heavily brown water centric composition and a fleet orbat that is heavily asymmetrically centered on the ESF.

Why waste precious money on SSBNs, SSNs and a carrier when for example, you can be producing other ships. Like lots of invasion barges, LCACs and LPDs. Lots of smaller, cheaper, numerous subs.

And then why disperse the ships farther away from Taiwan? Even though the ESF takes the priority for the PLAN due to its closest proximity to Taiwan, the PLAN does try to achieve symmetry in all three fleets, which means major ship resources are being put into the NSF and SSF further away from Taiwan. One of the 052C is moved to the SSF, while the two 051C with their RIF-M, is placed far north with the NSF.

Note for example, those very expensive SSBNs and SSNs are not facing Taiwan at all, they're not based in the critically placed ESF, but in the SSF and NSF.

Why produce for example, way too much Type 22 Houbeis when FACs cannot demonstrate a sustained value in an invasive campaign? They cannot for example, provide AA cover, do ASW, provide artillery support. People have tried to explain the 022 FAC strategy for a Taiwan invasion scenario, when in fact, its the classic FAC doctrine the PLAN inherited from the Soviet Union guzzed up with modern trappings. With the FAC orbat being distributed in all three fleets instead of just one, it supports a primary defensive nature of these ships.

The PLAN apparently upgraded a Luda with new MLRS, then didn't do anything else.

There was plenty of momentum coming from the Jiang Zhemin era for the PLAN, PLANAF and PLAAF to upgrade and assist in a Taiwan invasion scenario. So these projects are only materializing in the last few years out of inertia. And then a lot of projects that should have a higher priority, like the new air defense destroyers, have taken a backseat in exchange for multirole frigates, which are definitely less intimidating.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
weasel interesting sources, thanks for the links. What I find interesting is we are both reading similar authors.

This is about 1500 pages worth of stuff shaping my perspectives.

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=721
http://www.uscc.gov/hearings/2007he...29_30wrts/07_03_29_30_erickson_supplement.pdf
Winter 2008 article here http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/review/review.aspx
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_33/china.html
Entering the Dragons Lair by RAND is good.
 

crobato

New Member
Actually they have since 1994. Russia and China signed a de-targeting agreement at the same time the Russians signed with the US.

The russian "threat" to China is still as real as the Iranian threat is to US.
But have they removed or deactivated missiles and warheads? Russia's SSBN fleet has the least decommissionings in all its services follow its nuclear missile arm. The targeting can be done quickly enough. In the long term, Russia's resurgent nationalism is worrisome, given its language, and reeks of analogies with another country back in the thirties. There is deep resentment in the power and population vacuum they are leaving in Siberia, which are being filled up with Chinese. Simply said the PRC just don't trust the Russians enough, and the Russians vice versa, even on the surface they tried to cooperate. A large portion of both countries arsenals are in IRBMs and still remain so, and the most likely usage of such missiles are in fact, each other.


I think you mistake the media to be the Government.
Who else do you think why they would need to reach out with the Sagarika? Pakistan, which is right on the border?

Yup, an amphibious force can apply to an invasion of Mongolia. lol.

Explains nothing. You are looking at two incidents over a period of time, which during the time, had numerous exercises. The USN and the PLAN conducts exercises at least 3 to 4 times in the area each year. Considering how much both are at sea, how close they are, its remarkable you only have one real incident, considering how many "encounters" the Soviet Union had with the USN. The Han circling Guam does not mean much, they did it in international waters. You don't have things like H-6 bombers being sent out to shadow US fleets like the Russians attempted to do with their Tu-95s as recently as just last month over the Nimitz group in the Pacific.

Which countries build amphibious vessels for any other use than amphibious landings?

Other than Taiwan, as mentioned, I'm sure defending Hainan is probably the most urgent agenda for the amphibious vessels.

Sure, one can argue that the amphibious vessels are for defensive purposes which is exactly what the PLAN says. Of course, one forgets that a military operation against Taiwan is exactly termed as a defensive operation. Please, none of us are that naive.
Excuse me, but you only have ONE LPD. They are not building four, or five, or six all at once. One LPD is hardly any use in any invasion. Maybe only with a small island like the Spratleys but that would be overkill.

I agree with that to the exception that violent means has never been disavowed (remember the chinese legislation governing use of force against breakaway states?).
And somehow you want to take that legislation as proof that China abandoned the use of peaceful means for reunification?

Actually it does. The PLA has consistently stated that a strong military gives credibility to any diplomatic efforts. I would post links but you'd probably just dismiss them like you have the others.
Which is exactly why they are pursuing a post Taiwan doctrine with power projection in mind.

The difference is that the US tends to have a lot enemies than China. You can be sure the Zumwalt is produced with China somewhere in the equation. So is the F22.
And I'm sure what China produces has the US in the equation but the point remains the US is not the only one. China is surrounded by "frenemies".

If one looks at the perspective of Chinese acquisition, I think arguing that it is for a Darfur mission is a bit far-fetched.

And how many LSTs have China built so far just in the last decade alone? Add in the Yunshu and the Yutings. The new twin hulled Yubeis. The continued negotiations for the Zubrs. Its not like you don't know this.
And if you really want to answer the question yourself, the greatest portion are made behind 2000, and are in fact, aging faster than the rate of new ships (Yuting II) that could replace them. The Yuhai is far from new, production ended in 2000.

The Zubr does not appear to be in discussion anymore.



And that conveniently ignores the value of the Jins in a US nuclear response over a Taiwan straits issue.
Which conveniently ignores that China has made a policy they will not have a first strike option.

Nope, it is you who have been discounting every move of China and the PLAN towards an anti-US taiwan centric strategy.
No---what you have discounted is that the moves of the PLAAF/PLANAF/PLAN after HJT took over---has begin to show a post Taiwan scenario.

The make-up of the PLAN, PLAAF and PLA is exactly the make-up consistent with tackling a modern adversary such as the US and Taiwan over the Taiwan straits. Reduced obsolete army requirements. Improving air assault and amphibious capabilities. Improving air superiority and anti ship capabilities.
What you are saying does not discount for example, that PLAAF air training, after peaking around 2003 and 2004, began to head down to a rather leisurely pace by 2007.

Compared to the way the PLAAF was rushing things before 2004, today, they are taking its time, adopting J-10s, J-11Bs and JH-7As at a rather leisurely pace of one regiment each year for each of the different type.

Precisely because the PLAN recognises that technology is a force multiplier. They have studied how the US dismantled technological inferior though numerically superior armies and wish to avoid such an outcome.

I think when one looks at the longer term, it is a fallacy to think the chinese aren't patient enough to construct a military that is sufficiently strong to carry out its objectives. Everyone of these points to a build-up.
Which they owe to their history of having been constantly invaded, and their announcement that they will match their military capability with their economy.


Precisely because Taiwan has the ability to knock out ships that is in close proximity to its coastlines with aircraft, coastal SSMs and navy vessels.

I have highlighted before the possibility that China may endeavour a 2 prong assault taking a defended amphibious convoy approach instead of a previously thought haphazard '000 landing ships approach. Note how Shanghai is now heavily defended by SA-10s.
Shanghai is also the HQ for the PLAN ESF. The range of the SA-10 from Shanghai is not enough for Taiwan. There are also SA-10s in each of the major Chinese city along the coast, especially at Beijing. What you don't see is having the SA-10s massively concentrated around Fujian province.

Nope, as mentioned, the SSNs are more likely to be deployed in open ocean against the USN rather than the Taiwanese navy.

The SSBNs will endeavour to deploy in a position that can cover US targets.
None of what you say directly relates to a Taiwan invasion context. SSNs tend to operate best as lone wolves rather than wolf packs. Their usage alone forces a different context in doctrine and operation compared to the usage of SSKs. SSKs in wolf packs are in a much better position to serve as a wide area sea denial assets, which is much more useful in a Taiwan invasive context. SSNs are not resource efficient in this context, the cost of one can already buy you a flotilla of SSKs.

SSNs have a more general purpose in mind, which is the one point I am trying to make. True, it should have the USN in mind, but its not the only thing in the equation. They are what you need to hunt down SSGNs and SSBNs, protect your SSBNs, and provide escort to your CVBGs,. SSKs can't do that.

Positioning nuclear subs in the NSF is hardly convenient for open ocean at all because of the geographic barriers that present in the form of Korea and Japan. For these to break out into the open ocean they have to break through Japanese territorial waters. And given their bases, its quite a long reach to Taiwan.

Positioning nuclear subs in the SSF is more logical, since it won't be as bared. But it does lengthen the transit and response time to Taiwan and the open ocean.


The stealthy Houbeis are more likely to be survivable in a Taiwan straits environment than the Luzhous or other DDGs can. It is a recognition of ROC's ability to take out naval assets quickly with harpoons, mavericks, hellfires etc. I can see the Houbeis contesting ROCN naval assets in hostile EW waters and its never too much.
The Houbeis are purely antishipping, and there is not enough surface ships in the ROCN that you can kill. They cannot provide air cover, artillery, and ASW work for an invasive fleet. Neither can they sit and stand there in a sustained patrol because they lack the fuel for that.

The Houbeis are basically sea born interceptors.

I think we all know where the Ludas will head in the future.
And so, who is going to provide beach head artillery and MLRS support then?

Navalised SA-10 armed Luzhous. Jiangweis with AAW cover. Anti-ship H-6s, JH-7s, J-10s and Su-30s aren't that old. In fact, we're seeing a lot more construction and the introduction of new tech today than at any time in the last 2 decades. LGBs, anti-satellite missiles, networking, self production of aircraft etc.

Defense expenditure has reached new heights which even the chinese Govt has acknowledged (though they question the pace in comparison to the US). Momentum in the Hu Jintao era is even faster than the Jiang Zemin era.
And if you notice both SA-10 armed Luzhous are in the NSF, very far from Taiwan of all places.

The first J-10 deployment is in Yunnan province. Go check a map and tell me which country is that the closest to. The second J-10 deployment is in Nanjing. Close enough to Taiwan, but its not directly opposite to it either. The third deployment is in a base well west of Hong Kong, north of the Vietnam border.

And their fourth J-10 deployment? All the way to the north in Shenyang. Much closer to North Korea.

The first J-10 trials group is still operating north of Beijing for its air defense.

J-11s are distributed in China all over, they made sure that every Military Region Command has one. They are not as one is to believe, just heavily concentrated along the Straits. There seems to be more J-11s north of the Yangtze rather than the south. And two groups are in the western side of China in all places.

A good number of JH-7s and Su-30 are located in the Nanjing-Shanghai zone. these can reach Taiwan for sure, but these are not facing Taiwan directly, and still positioned north enough to be able to flexibly deal with a northern threat.

The PLAAF's latest jet, the souped up and indigenized J-11B are now being located where? Far from the straits of Taiwan, they are north of Shenyang, where its all chilly, in direct range of North Korea, Mongolia and even Russia. And notice that all at the same time, they are also converting a regiment into J-10s in Shenyang also?
 
Last edited:
Top