Gripen - Red Flag

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Grand Danois

Entertainer
DR. freud

yes for overseas and the close nato support F-35 will be the best for denmark because it will suit USAs task perfect..

but in my last statement i didn´t said anything about which aircraft that is best for denmark..
You seem to forget that Kosovo/a 1999 was flown on an European agenda inside a NATO context. Baltic air patrols - NATO task. Afghanistan clearly multilateral, though the result of an attack on the US. ISAF is a NATO initiative (as in European).

I'll leave it here - have a real life besides DT. ;)
 

zeven

New Member
Grand Danios

:) i said i agree with you, that F-35 probably will be the best choice :)

for you.. because of your missions overseas with usa..

and i´ll try to have a real life too.. hehe

i wish you the same !! nice talking to you
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Aussi Digger.

for small countries isee Gripen as the best choice
those who need a pure airsupiority fighter isee EF as the best choice

if you want to bomb or help usa overseas in the war against terror, than F-35 is the best, with support of F-22

because it´s better on paper, doesnt mean it´s the best plane for certain needs some countries have. that just foolish to think.
You seem to be alluding to your earlier remark that the F-35 won't be a capable air to air fighter. Again you have not supported that with even a Yuotube video to back you up, but I'm interested to see what capabilities you think are important for a good air to air fighter, if you're not too busy with your real life?
 

Dr Freud

New Member
DR. freud

yes for overseas and the close nato support F-35 will be the best for denmark because it will suit USAs task perfect..

but in my last statement i didn´t said anything about which aircraft that is best for denmark..
Actually, i think we are pretty much on the same wavelength here,
Gripen is very well suited for the defence of Denmark, but a Predator UAV is by far the best for international commitments.
I just hope anyone can come up with a price for Predator.

In my personal opinion: lease a handful of Gripen for defence of Denmark, and buy Predator for international commitments. They will be much more useful and appreciated then anything else Denmark can contribute with. Not least their awesome endurance.
But thats just me....
 
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zeven

New Member
aussie digger i doubt F-35 will be superior EF in air 2 air yes..

why? because no one have said it will be, and where ever i go, doesnt matter if i´s, LM or usaf webpage, all say the same, F-35 is a strike fighter with secondary air 2 air capabilities, and i don´t think EU, are so far behind USA that even their own Bomb plane are superior Europas best air 2 air fighter..

but like you, i can only assume.. and like you, i can be wrong!!
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Actually, i think we are pretty much on the same wavelength here,
Gripen is very well suited for the defence of Denmark, but a Predator UAV is by far the best for international commitments.
I just hope anyone can come up with a price for Predator.

In my personal opinion, Gripen for defence of Denmark, and Predator for international commitments, but thats just me....
Well, if the "CAS model" is the choice, then IMV a UCAV like the Predator is a better choice than attack helos for Afghanistan.

Attack helos are log and maint heavy. The Predator has better persistence - much better cost-effectiveness.

Attack helos are also high visibilty items to deploy in political terms - it is much more aggresive and visible in the mind of the domestic audience. But so are leo 2's.
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Hi GD, sorry i had to edit my last post.
I'm making a list of chat abbreviations, but it isnt complete yet, can you tell me what IMV stands for ?.
btw i agree with all your above comments.
 
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Aussie Digger

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Hi GD, sorry i had to edit my last post.
I'm making a list of chat abbreviations, but it isnt complete yet, can you tell me what IMV stands for ?.
btw i agree with all your above comments.
In my view...
 

Dr Freud

New Member
lol, chat abbreviations is a science in its own right! thanks.

Today we celebrate the treaty of Roskilde, between Denmark and Sweden.
This was the single most important step towards everlasting peace and friendship between the two countries IMHO.......................... :denmark :cheers :sweden
 
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JohanGrön

New Member
lol, chat abbreviations is a science in its own right! thanks.

Today we celebrate the treaty of Roskilde, between Denmark and Sweden.
This was the single most important step towards everlasting peace and friendship between the two countries.......................... .................. :denmark :cheers :sweden
And perhaps the hardest thing for all Danes out there to get over ... :eek:nfloorl:
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
And perhaps the hardest thing for all Danes out there to get over ... :eek:nfloorl:
No. In terms of defining national identity that would be the loss of Schlesweig-Holstein.

In terms of objective historical significance, yes. Skåne, Halland and Blekinge is an example of succesful Swedish annexation by genocide; this altered the course of Scandinavia markedly.

But I doubt if most Danes would know what the Roskilde Treaty is, unless told. Nobody cares.

Quite frankly, I doubt if the other posters are interested in this too, this is a mil aviation thread.
 

zeven

New Member
Grand Danois

i agree with you, don´t think anyone care, it is history..

im so tired of all this history things. who cares? what our countries did for hundreds of years ago.. they abviously didn´t had the same IQ as we have now.. i prefer respect and recognition
 

Dr Freud

New Member
The event of Predator UCAV makes it a whole lot easier to deal with insurgents though, be it scanians, danes, iraqies ,and what have you.
I believe most gouvernments prefer respect and recognition for them, to stay alive if nothing else.:coffee
 
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davedogman

New Member
You seem to be alluding to your earlier remark that the F-35 won't be a capable air to air fighter. Again you have not supported that with even a Yuotube video to back you up, but I'm interested to see what capabilities you think are important for a good air to air fighter, if you're not too busy with your real life?
There's a lot of technical factors out there but even the USAF want more Raptors to support the F-35. Not because they need range and bomb load in the air force. So why? Because they want long term air superiority. That requirement would originally have been fulfilled by 700+ Raptors.

A small country like Norway or Denmark can't afford to use two types of jets. For them it's better to buy a air superiority jet like Gripen or Rafale and use it as a bomber when needed. If the F-35 could offer a long term air superiority capability then the USAF wouldn't ask for many more Raptors.

They obviously see what's on the horizon and the F-35 won't be able to fully deal with the new threats. New russian jets coming next decade... jets designed to counter the F-22. I ask you would you give up true air superiority without even knowing your future threats? That's what people is asking Norway, Denmark and Holland to do by choosing the slow less agile F-35.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The air superiority mission is an offensive counter-air mission; it takes place in enemy airspace. This is what an air superiority fighter is designed for.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
There's a lot of technical factors out there but even the USAF want more Raptors to support the F-35. Not because they need range and bomb load in the air force. So why? Because they want long term air superiority. That requirement would originally have been fulfilled by 700+ Raptors.

A small country like Norway or Denmark can't afford to use two types of jets. For them it's better to buy a air superiority jet like Gripen or Rafale and use it as a bomber when needed. If the F-35 could offer a long term air superiority capability then the USAF wouldn't ask for many more Raptors.

They obviously see what's on the horizon and the F-35 won't be able to fully deal with the new threats. New russian jets coming next decade... jets designed to counter the F-22. I ask you would you give up true air superiority without even knowing your future threats? That's what people is asking Norway, Denmark and Holland to do by choosing the slow less agile F-35.
Or they're run by the "fighter mafia" that wants fighter jets in their thousands and "not a pound for air to ground"...

This little quote from Lockheed Martin the manufacturer of the F-22 AND the F-35 couldn't be true could it?

The Joint Strike Fighter could be upgraded to carry up to six internal AIM-120 AMRAAM Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles, according to a Lockheed Martin executive. "Our spiral development program includes the ability to carry up to six internal AMRAAMs", G. Richard Cathers, senior manager of Lockheed Martin's strategic studies group, told the IQPC Fighter Conference in London on Wednesday. "It's a capability second only to the F-22."

Cathers added that the JSF's air-combat capability "has not been advertised as it could or should have been", partly because "at the same time as we are developing the F-35, we and the USAF have wanted to expand the F-22 program." Apparently, the USAF has not wanted to advertise the JSF's air-to-air capability, concerned that it would weaken the case for acquiring more than the 183 F-22s authorized today.

The four added internal AMRAAMs would be carried in place of internal bombs. It's not clear, however, whether the short-take-off, vertical landing F-35B variant, which has smaller weapon bays, would be able to carry the added weapons.
An executive for a competing fighter program, speaking at the conference, said that the six-missile capability would be a major improvement for the JSF. Until now, competitors have criticised the JSF because it carries only two AAMs - supporting only a single engagement - in stealth mode.


Courtest of Bill Sweetman's ARES blog.



The F-35 has excellent thrust to weight ratio, excellent agility and maneuverability, a "high mach number" wing and fuselage planform, clean airframe in operational configuration, large internal fuel fraction, the best radar system in the world, the best passive sensor system in the world, advanced helmet mounted sighting system, a choice of the worlds best HOBS heaters (AIM-9X, ASRAAM and even IRIS-T if a country feels like coughing up the integration dollars) the most advanced current AAM's and the most advanced future planned AAM's.


It's instaneous and sustained roll rates are equal or superior to F-16 and F/A-18 fighters (no slouches in A2A themselves) and with it's thrust and large fuel fraction, it's going to accelerate quicker than them as well.


Jon Beesley has already commented in Code One Magazine that the F-16 (Block 40 I believe) being used the the AA-1 F-35 "chase plane" has to go to reheat to keep up with the F-35 in "dry" thrust in numerous profiles...

This is the heavy "pre-SWAT" airframe too...


Why on Earth people think it's only a "bomb truck" is beyond me. Is the F-16 only a "bomb truck"? I guess national pride simply won't allow them to admit that the US has designed the 2 best fighters in the last 20 years... :rolleyes:
 

Dr Freud

New Member
"Apparently, the USAF has not wanted to advertise the JSF's air-to-air capability, concerned that it would weaken the case for acquiring more than the 183 F-22s authorized today."
This does make sense.
I don't think anyone suggest Gripen is better then F35, its a low-cost lightweight quick turnaround low maintainance fighter, with a secondary attack and recon capability. A really impressive plane for its size and cost. There is no need to pretend it to be more then it already is.

It is rather shocking to read "F35 can be upgraded to carry more then 2 AMRAAMs in stealth mode" why the hell didnt they build it to carry 6 AMRAAM in the first place??!
Who ever made that blunder should be trialed for treason or stupidity or sumfing IMNSHO!
 
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Oryx

New Member
In my view...
I'm not really what you would call a "regular" contributor to this forum, but is it just me or has the standard at DefenceTalk really dropped horribly in recent times? Some things I have seen in this thread alone:

  • Going completely off topic (rule 6)
  • Complete disrespect towards some authors (rule 7)
  • This vs that (rule 3)
  • Some posts here hint very clearly at defamation of certain countries (rule 15)
  • Some posts where people are clearly just making things up based on their opinions and then repeating it as fact(rule 21)
  • Lots and lots of one-liner posts (rule 2)

Anyway, the culprits here are often the moderators themselves. I personally am very disappointed with this. There are people here who really have good information to contribute and sometimes this is one of the first places where I would see breaking news on military (in particular aerospace) events, yet I find myself visiting the forums less and less due to what I see in threads such as the current one. Again, I am very disappointed.

Oh, just to add a bit of sort-of on topic content so I don't make myself completely guilty of breaking rule 6 also. I saw this earlier in the thread and really have to comment:
The F-35 possess a wing and fuselage plan-form that indicates it is Mach 2 capable. Elementary "2D" drawings, plus the available thrust, indicate the aircraft should be capable of speeds around Mach 2.148.
Four significant digits, just from that information? OK, you did say "around", but not "around Mach 2.1 or Mach 2.2", it is "around Mach 2.148". As someone working regularly with flight dynamics, performance prediction, applied aerodynamics and the flight testing of military aircraft, this one really hit a nerve. You can't even measure it that accurately, let alone predict it that accurately with the most advanced analysis software available. And you got that just from 2D drawings and available thrust (which, btw, is rounded to the closest 1000lbs and only valid for standard sea-level conditions, most likely also uninstalled thrust)? Even if you could cite a source for this number, I would not believe it as whoever came up with it originally doesn't understand how maximum speed is determined, evaluated or by which factors it is influenced.
 
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