mysterious
New Member
If we're looking at other older tank types other than the M-series then lets not forget the extensive upgradation performed on T-59s & T-65s by Pakistan in bringing them up to the Al-Zarrar standard.
Way of using old tanks
- Thread starter evripide
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Yes - the Chinese are also using some of the same upgrade on their tanks also.
I doubt that very many Iranian M-60s are still in service. Not only would spare parts be hard to come by, but they came out of the war with Iraq during the 80s with a different attitude towards tanks in general.
In 1981, the Iranians had favored the M-60, on the basis that it was more reliable and easier to keep in the field for extended periods of time.
By 1985, they had turned more towards the Shir Iran (the SHah's variant of the Chieftan) because they had more firepower and armor, and were thus more survivable.
I woud think that lack of enthusiasm would have lead to many M-60s being shelved before their time.
Jordan recieved 36 M-60s from Iraq that I know of, captured from Iran and passed along to King Hussien. Looks like they were able to improve on a good thing!
In 1981, the Iranians had favored the M-60, on the basis that it was more reliable and easier to keep in the field for extended periods of time.
By 1985, they had turned more towards the Shir Iran (the SHah's variant of the Chieftan) because they had more firepower and armor, and were thus more survivable.
I woud think that lack of enthusiasm would have lead to many M-60s being shelved before their time.
Jordan recieved 36 M-60s from Iraq that I know of, captured from Iran and passed along to King Hussien. Looks like they were able to improve on a good thing!
Actually The U.S has sold M-60A3s to Jordan along with M113s.
I do not know the exact amount of M-60s that are left in inventory with Iran, but they are still listed on the DOD list, also the hull while being modified somewhat is used on the Zulfiqar tank.
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A tank isn't always killing another tank. In fact, a tank is often used against enemy infantry. This is what tanks are doing on a daily basis in Iraq for the past several years.
So is a upgraded M48 still a useful tank? Is its 90mm or 105mm gun effective against infantry and other tanks? Definitely.
In every army, there are first line and second line units. An upgraded M48 will still make a very effective tank for a second line unit. Especially home defense units.
In countries like Israel, Korea and Singapore, there is a LARGE base of reservists due to conscription. And these older reservists well-trained in these older tanks. So there is a large supply of manpower who can operate these vehicles in times of war to boost numbers.
Israel used Super Shermans up till 1970s.
In many situations, you will face only light enemy armour. Example, light enemy airborne or amphibious armour dropped to your rear or flank. A upgraded M48 is more than sufficient to deal with these, freeing your first line MBTs for other duties.
In Singapore, we fielded about 300 fifty yr old upgraded AMX-13 with original 75mm gun till today. We made APFSDS shells for this gun and it was more than enough to deal with most threats in the region.
And it is still a great infantry support platform though its armour sucks. With the M48, upgrading the armour would be easy.
With spare parts, it is not much of a problem. If you have 1,000 M48, you operate 500 and keep the rest as battlefield replacements, or spares for cannibalisation.
So is a upgraded M48 still a useful tank? Is its 90mm or 105mm gun effective against infantry and other tanks? Definitely.
In every army, there are first line and second line units. An upgraded M48 will still make a very effective tank for a second line unit. Especially home defense units.
In countries like Israel, Korea and Singapore, there is a LARGE base of reservists due to conscription. And these older reservists well-trained in these older tanks. So there is a large supply of manpower who can operate these vehicles in times of war to boost numbers.
Israel used Super Shermans up till 1970s.
In many situations, you will face only light enemy armour. Example, light enemy airborne or amphibious armour dropped to your rear or flank. A upgraded M48 is more than sufficient to deal with these, freeing your first line MBTs for other duties.
In Singapore, we fielded about 300 fifty yr old upgraded AMX-13 with original 75mm gun till today. We made APFSDS shells for this gun and it was more than enough to deal with most threats in the region.
And it is still a great infantry support platform though its armour sucks. With the M48, upgrading the armour would be easy.
With spare parts, it is not much of a problem. If you have 1,000 M48, you operate 500 and keep the rest as battlefield replacements, or spares for cannibalisation.
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weasel1962
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Re:
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Note that the article is from 1999. The Swiss deactivated their 20 monobloc bunkers with Centurion turrets in 2002 (and declassified their positions).
Active fortifications only employ 155mm Bison and twin 120mm mortars, primarily with canister/submunition ammo since 2000.
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info about declassified swiss fortifications @ http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schwitte/geschuetze.htm (German with some english summaries)
map @ http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schwitte/images/Geschuetze/Centi StaoKarte4.jpg
@Rock45
Here is some of the tanks used by Sudan, I thought I would list some of the ones that they use and have upgraded.
1. Type 85 M-11 purchased from China
2. AL Zubair 2 upgrades purchased from China, equal to Chinese Type 59D
3. AL Zubair 1 upgrades purchased from Iran, equal to Iranian Type 72Z
4. Digna equal to Russian T-55
PS - loved the link to the Sudanese military parade.
Here is some of the tanks used by Sudan, I thought I would list some of the ones that they use and have upgraded.
1. Type 85 M-11 purchased from China
2. AL Zubair 2 upgrades purchased from China, equal to Chinese Type 59D
3. AL Zubair 1 upgrades purchased from Iran, equal to Iranian Type 72Z
4. Digna equal to Russian T-55
PS - loved the link to the Sudanese military parade.
Investigator
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Comments deleted.
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I am actually impressed by the amount of influence that China is bringing to Sudan, this is something that Rock45 and I have discussed through private messages. I to hope that they would not use their military against innocent civilians and I for one do not condone countries that feel the need to express this type of behavior. People should not have to live in fear for their lives.
I've been hearing stuff like the west and everyone friends with the west will not touch Sudan (economically) because of the situation it has put itself in. However, China has no such prejudice and is willing to be an economic partner maybe trying to make Africa a Chinese best buddy...I am actually impressed by the amount of influence that China is bringing to Sudan, this is something that Rock45 and I have discussed through private messages. I to hope that they would not use their military against innocent civilians and I for one do not condone countries that feel the need to express this type of behavior. People should not have to live in fear for their lives.
I do not mean to sound racist or anything but the wrong people are getting to come to power in those sorts of countries mainly tribes that have blood feuds with others...
Well, to a certain extent, Sudan has to keep up in a limited local arms race. And tanks aren't suited to fighting guerillas really, such as the SPLA.
Egypt with over a thousand Abrams to the north, and Ethiopia and the SPLA to the south, which have more recently received quite some financial and military support from both the USA and the CIS.
Due to some more recent (2005-2006) minor clashes with Ethiopia, they probably feel the need to at least draw equivalent to them. Considering Ethiopia now runs upgraded T-55 as well as T-62 and T-72, and has been upgraded by the US in particular regarding APCs (M113) and artillery (M109), it's really no wonder Sudan is looking to modernize a bit.
Btw, the US government also reaffirmed plans to upgrade the SPLA into "a modern military" last month.
Egypt with over a thousand Abrams to the north, and Ethiopia and the SPLA to the south, which have more recently received quite some financial and military support from both the USA and the CIS.
Due to some more recent (2005-2006) minor clashes with Ethiopia, they probably feel the need to at least draw equivalent to them. Considering Ethiopia now runs upgraded T-55 as well as T-62 and T-72, and has been upgraded by the US in particular regarding APCs (M113) and artillery (M109), it's really no wonder Sudan is looking to modernize a bit.
Btw, the US government also reaffirmed plans to upgrade the SPLA into "a modern military" last month.
To put things into perspective, western countries do flout arms embargoes imposed by other western countries. I hope no one is implying that only China does it.
My country is often supplying arms to undesirables - not something I'm proud of. But before anyone take the moral high ground against China, it is probably prudent to check up on your own country's possible dirty deeds.
My country is often supplying arms to undesirables - not something I'm proud of. But before anyone take the moral high ground against China, it is probably prudent to check up on your own country's possible dirty deeds.
What to do else with your manpower in wartime? Send them all as light infantry?
Having full stocks of older tanks (updated in a reasonable way) is defenitely going to increase your ability to push up your numbers and expand your forces if war threatens you.
For sure this is not very vital for a smaller professional army but there are more than enough countries out there which still have a conscript system and reserve system.
Without proper equipment in storage you are going to have a whole bunch of purely light infantryif you call in your reserves.
Having full stocks of older tanks (updated in a reasonable way) is defenitely going to increase your ability to push up your numbers and expand your forces if war threatens you.
For sure this is not very vital for a smaller professional army but there are more than enough countries out there which still have a conscript system and reserve system.
Without proper equipment in storage you are going to have a whole bunch of purely light infantryif you call in your reserves.
Remote Controlled tanks? like UAVs?
well I am not sure how would they be effective as a war machine, but at least it will be a perfect moving targets for live round exercises,
and in war time they would act as decoy tanks ( fake movements to cover the real tank movements)
or there is one more use for old tanks,
sell them to the civilians, if you google it there are bunch of tanks used as garden decorations or even there are some versions which are allowed to be driven on public roads. The sales of them would give some income to the armies.
( I wouldn't mind a tank as a birthday gift )
well I am not sure how would they be effective as a war machine, but at least it will be a perfect moving targets for live round exercises,
and in war time they would act as decoy tanks ( fake movements to cover the real tank movements)
or there is one more use for old tanks,
sell them to the civilians, if you google it there are bunch of tanks used as garden decorations or even there are some versions which are allowed to be driven on public roads. The sales of them would give some income to the armies.
( I wouldn't mind a tank as a birthday gift
)Nearly two years ago me and my father went to a public tank driving range.
They have old T-55Ts and you can book them for a 1 our ride and they recently also added some BMP-1 and 2.
The best gift I ever made to my dad who served on T-55s and T-72s in the NVA!
Ok, the guys running that range are also former NVA soldiers and when they asked me if I have any tank experience they were not lucky about me having only a driving license for this silly modern western piece of crap called Leo II.
They have old T-55Ts and you can book them for a 1 our ride and they recently also added some BMP-1 and 2.
The best gift I ever made to my dad who served on T-55s and T-72s in the NVA!
Ok, the guys running that range are also former NVA soldiers and when they asked me if I have any tank experience they were not lucky about me having only a driving license for this silly modern western piece of crap called Leo II.
Eck,@Rock45
Here is some of the tanks used by Sudan, I thought I would list some of the ones that they use and have upgraded.
1. Type 85 M-11 purchased from China
2. AL Zubair 2 upgrades purchased from China, equal to Chinese Type 59D
3. AL Zubair 1 upgrades purchased from Iran, equal to Iranian Type 72Z
4. Digna equal to Russian T-55
PS - loved the link to the Sudanese military parade.
You know betterthan anyone here. Out of all them four, which one could stand up to a good M-60 at range?
I never knew there were public tank ranges, I am going to check out if I have it around here,