Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I want to bring an issue to discussion that I have in mind since quite a long time. I often have the impression that in it's major procurement programmes Malaysia always takes an incredible amount of time until something concrete happens. Is that only so because here in Germany you don't hear much about that or is there really so much idling?

What I mean is that after Malaysia initially announces something, you don't hear of it again for years.
Some examples:

As Malaysia wanted to replace their AUG rifle, in April 2006 they announced the purchase of the Colt M4A1. Back then they said that deliveries would start in 2006. Now we have 2008, almost 2 years gone and literally nothing has happened. Not a single M4 has been delivered to the Malaysian Forces yet (okay, that might be wrong, there surely have been a few single trial weapons, but nothing serious).

Example 2:
The light armoured vehicle Deftech AV4. Publicly introduced at the DSA 2006 exhibition, big hoopla about it, magazines reporting, Malaysian politicians proudly proclaiming the birth of a indigenious defence industry etc., but since then? Absolutely nothing, no news, no pictures, no nothing. Like this vehicle has never existed. The Malaysian Armed Forces or the Police did not purchase it, and it also never appeared on any other Defence exhibition again since then. Is this project dead right now? Do they still work on it?

Example 3:
At the same DSA 2006 exhibition, Malaysia announced that it wanted to purchase 98 8x8 APC vehicles to partly replace their Condor and Sibmas AFVs. They tested the Swiss Piranha IIIC, the Polish KTO Rosomak (licenced Patria AMV) and the Turkish FNSS PARS (licenced GPV Captain). There are pics and a Jane's article about this six week trial. But to date no results or whatever have been announced. Again it appears as if it has never happened or like the Malaysian Army totally forgot about it. Of course, there will have been some negotiations behind the scenes between the Malaysian Army and the respective firm's local agents, but after 2 years they maybe should have come to an end. You can negotiate forever, but at one point you should simply get things straight.

Example 4:
I've read that it took the Malaysians more than 10 years to purchase a MBT, in the late 80's/early 90's they decided to get tanks and only in 2003 they finally went for the PT-91M, which is still not fully delivered yet.

Against that, just for example, when Singapore decided to buy a new MBT, they announced to buy the Leopard 2's, and merely a few weeks later they had the first of them. What's the deal with Malaysia?

Yeah, I know the difference between Singapore's Leopard 2 purchase (off-the-shelf acquisition) and Malaysia's PT-91M purchase ("custom-made", with extensive trials beforehand), but I'm not alluding to the four years between signing the contract in 2003 and finally getting the first production vehicles in summer last year. I allude to the 10 years that it took Malaysia to merely make a decision.

I always thought that the German procurement programmes were bureaucratic and slow, but against the Malaysian ones they almost appear like tightly organized and fast projects. :p:
 
Last edited:

aneep

New Member
you are right, sometimes there are too many hands inside the cookie jar when it comes to defence procurement
the doctrine ppl comes up with the requirements, no problems there, ->*problem* -> evaluation ppl do the evaluations ->*problem*-> reevaluation->ministry of finance said too much money needed, cut fund ->MAF gets to buy a few examples
*above is a fantasy scenario only, hehe*

Colt M4A1 should be here already, a few thousand pcs sent end of last year

-aneep-
 

wzhtg

New Member
Nuri tender extended

Nuri copter tender extended to Feb 12

KUALA LUMPUR: The tender for the Nuri helicopter's replacement has been extended to Feb 12 to enable more companies to put in their bid.
Defence Forces Chief Gen Tan Sri Abdul Aziz Zainal said yesterday that the tender would be awarded as soon as possible.
Speaking to reporters after launching the rollout of the Balanced ScoreCard (BSC) at the armed forces headquarters, Abdul Aziz said that among other things, the replacement helicopters must be able to carry at least 25 people, undertake assault and search and rescue missions.
The Government plans to replace all its US-built Nuri or Sikorsky helicopters by 2012.
Fifteen Nuri helicopters had crashed since 1968, killing 70 people, including 19 civilians, and incurred a loss of RM86.7mil.
At the launching of the BSC, Abdul Aziz said that it would empower a system of management in the armed forces and enable it to be more focused on the army mission and objectives. – Bernama



Source : http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/2/6/nation/20248810&sec=nation
 

paskal

New Member
I think there's a typo in 2nd line. Should be 8th infantry brigade commander.

General

------------------------------------------------------------------------
January 10, 2008 20:52 PM

Army Training Director Appointed 8th Brigade Commander


KOTA BAHARU, Jan 10 (Bernama) -- Army training management director Brig-Gen Azizan Md Delin has been appointed the Fifth Infantry Brigade Commander, taking over from Brig-Gen Datuk Shaharudin Abu Bakar who is pursuing further studies in the United Kingdom.

The handing over of duties took place today, witnessed by Second Division Commander Datuk Raja Mohamad Afandi Raja Mohd Noor at the Eight Infantry Brigade Camp here.

Azizan, 46, from Sungai Petani, Kedah, once served as the Malaysia Royal Military College Commandant and the army's legal officer.

Met by reporters, Azizan said he would continue to carry out the programmes set out by Shaharudin to ensure continuity in the brigade.

Meanwhile Shaharudin said he would be pursuing military law at The Royal Collage of Defence Studies for a year.

-- BERNAMA
my last school commndant was syed zaharuddin [im studying in the royal military college].i think azizan was before him.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
you are right, sometimes there are too many hands inside the cookie jar when it comes to defence procurement
the doctrine ppl comes up with the requirements, no problems there, ->*problem* -> evaluation ppl do the evaluations ->*problem*-> reevaluation->ministry of finance said too much money needed, cut fund ->MAF gets to buy a few examples
*above is a fantasy scenario only, hehe*
Hmm, that's not really the best way to handle things...
I wonder what fancy things will be announced at the this year's DSA of which we will thereafter never hear again :rolleyes: :D

Colt M4A1 should be here already, a few thousand pcs sent end of last year

-aneep-
Oh, didn't know that. But judging from what was announced in 2006, one could have guessed that in 2008 most of the combat units should have been fully equipped with the M4 and not only a couple thousand rifles for the whole armed forces.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
One thing I am curious about regarding Malaysia's security concerns:

Who poses the biggest threat to Malaysia? If you were to give it a ranking, who would be the No. 1 threat? And who's 2nd or 3rd place?

Because at the end of the day, what shape and size MAF will take is essentially a "demand/supply" situation. Malaysia will build (supply) its armed force to meet the perceived threat level (demand).

IMO Malaysia is geographically difficult to defend. We always talk about the narrow Thai border or the straits at the Singapore border.

But Malaysia long coastline on both sides? (The lessons of WW2 comes to mind.)

And we haven't even mentioned East Malaysia which shares an impossibly long border with Indonesian Borneo. Will Malaysia even try to defend East Malaysia? The logistics of shipping people and equipment over sounds daunting.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, Malaysia has only four direct neighbours, these are Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore and the Philippines. Brunei is a neighbour too, but their "threat" to Malaysia can be neglected.
Malaysia has or had some kinds of issues will all four of them. The Philippines claim to be the righteous owner of what is now the Malaysian state of Sabah. In Thailand there are voices that say that Malaysia does not do enough to fight the islamic terrorists in the southern regions of Thailand, who partly seem to come from Northern Malaysia. More radical voices even say Malaysia secretly supports these terrorists. Indonesia already was in war with Malaysia in the 60's, because back then they didn't recognize Malaysia as a legitimate nation. When Singapore left the Malayan Federation and decided to become a state of their own, there also was a lot of bad feelings on both sides.
And from a broader point of view, all Nations in Southeastasia once feared a big scale military campaign from China.
And also there are some territorial disputes about certain islands, the most known of them are the Spratly Islands, which are claimed by more or less every Southeastasian state plus China.

BUT, in my eyes, all these things are no imminent danger which could evolve into war in foreseeable future. Malaysia has solid economic and political ties to all the countries named, and going to war would offer no advantages whatsoever. On the contrary it would destroy the nascent economical power of Southeastasia.
But Malaysia, like any country of the world, has to maintain a certain level of readiness and modernity in it's Armed Forces, not because they fear an invasion that could happen any day, but because, like all nations in the world, they cannot foresee the future and you don't know how things are in let's say 20 years. You can not neglect your military today because you think that everything is fine and noone is a threat to you at the moment. If at some point in the future the political and economic settings change and become more hostile, you cannot rebuild a forceful military from scratch. That is why everybody needs a military, even in peaceful times.

That's a lesson the world has learned. Compare it to the European situation in the 1920's. Back then everything was fine, Europe was recovering from WW1, and if you had asked any European citizen back then, nobody would have expected that there would be a war in Europe in any near future again, least of all a war that would even be bigger, more horrible and more devastating than what Europe had just gone through. But we all know that things changed. The global economics crisis in the end let tho Nazis coming to power in Germany and then one by one we all know what happened. The same thing can occur in Southeastasia (or anywhere else in the world, even in Europe itself). Something really bad happens, radical people come to power and everything turns bullsh*t. Your military has to be prepared for this.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry for double post, but to the question if Malaysia would even try to defend East Malaysia. Yes, they would. The Malaysian Army has one of it's four divisions stationed in East Malaysia. Yes, of course it would be difficult to support the East, but most wars leave a certain time to react before the first battle begins, and if Malaysia would not be caught completely off guard they would have enough time to bolster up their forces there. If Malaysia would not be able or willing to hold the East, then Indonesia and/or the Philippines would have already tried to get their hands on it. East Malaysia has quite big oil deposits AFAIK.

But here I have one question myself:
Singapore and Brunei are quite similar. Both are small, merely townsized nations completely surrounded by Malaysia. But whereas Singapore seems to be overcautious and anxious to get invaded by Malaysia and therefore has build up a military that is in no relation to their small size, Brunei just does not seem to give a sh*t. Their Army is not much more than three bataillons of light infantry and if Malaysia would seriously try to invade them they would have no chance. Why does Brunei not fear Malaysia, whereas Singapore does? Even more so because Brunei has rich oil deposits, whereas Singaporean economic power is more abstract (financial sector etc.). If Malaysia would invade Brunei they would have a concrete advantage (the oil), whereas an invasion of Singapore would not necessarily add to the economic welfare of Malaysia. Why is this so?
 

qwerty223

New Member
IMO Malaysia is geographically difficult to defend. We always talk about the narrow Thai border or the straits at the Singapore border.

But Malaysia long coastline on both sides? (The lessons of WW2 comes to mind.)

And we haven't even mentioned East Malaysia which shares an impossibly long border with Indonesian Borneo. Will Malaysia even try to defend East Malaysia? The logistics of shipping people and equipment over sounds daunting.
the time had changed, yet some of the concern remain, but technology and science made is less a factor.
I will only point out that if there is a war in the East Malaysia. For the current status and a future time period within 10 years, Malaysia can assure the air space and the water between the peninsular and east Malaysia. Therefore reinforcement is not a big problem.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Singapore and Brunei are quite similar. Both are small... But whereas Singapore seems to be overcautious and anxious to get invaded by Malaysia and therefore has build up a military that is in no relation to their small size, Brunei just does not seem to give a sh*t....
That's a tough question regarding Brunei and Malaysia. It's kinda like asking why the Kiwis aren't afraid of being invaded by the Aussies.:p:

Besides, Brunei was/is a protectorate of Britain. A British Gurkha unit may still be stationed there. They also have treaties with US.

...

Singapore OTOH is a very different situation.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
BUT, in my eyes, all these things are no imminent danger which could evolve into war in foreseeable future.
The recent coup in Thailand shows that there is still potential for sudden changes.

RMN and TNI ships rammed each other over some territorial dispute.

To have a military at all is to be prepared for the worst possible, and unexpected scenario. SE Asia is not yet stabilized like some parts of Europe.

IMO, the Thai border is still a potential for trouble due to the complicated situation of Bhuddists vs Muslims.

Next potential for trouble would be seaborne and SLOC. Everyone is scrambling for natural resources and Malaysia will be no different. As evidenced by the confrontation at sea with TNI and the troubles at Spratlys.
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
That's a tough question regarding Brunei and Malaysia. It's kinda like asking why the Kiwis aren't afraid of being invaded by the Aussies.:p:

Besides, Brunei was/is a protectorate of Britain. A British Gurkha unit may still be stationed there. They also have treaties with US.

...

Singapore OTOH is a very different situation.
I second this. Invading Brunei is the equivalent of fighting an ally/protectorate of the British Armed Forces. Not that it was ever entertained in the MAF but it must have been.
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
One thing I am curious about regarding Malaysia's security concerns:

Who poses the biggest threat to Malaysia? If you were to give it a ranking, who would be the No. 1 threat? And who's 2nd or 3rd place?

Because at the end of the day, what shape and size MAF will take is essentially a "demand/supply" situation. Malaysia will build (supply) its armed force to meet the perceived threat level (demand).

IMO Malaysia is geographically difficult to defend. We always talk about the narrow Thai border or the straits at the Singapore border.

But Malaysia long coastline on both sides? (The lessons of WW2 comes to mind.)

And we haven't even mentioned East Malaysia which shares an impossibly long border with Indonesian Borneo. Will Malaysia even try to defend East Malaysia? The logistics of shipping people and equipment over sounds daunting.
To be frank, the FPDA gives us valuable allies, Singaporeans included. Our naval and military bases on Borneo is going to be bolstered, and if there is an oil war in Ambalat, the MAF has the means, the equipment and the support to really hurt any intention to invade.

We have fought a war in Borneo. Others may snigger at our contribution, but Sarawakians had to fight our way out to independence. And as Sarawak would be the likely platform, fighting in Lubok Antu, Sri Aman and Serian would pose no problems at all. The MAF are familiar with the terrain and as far as I am concerned, if we wanted to, the road to Kalbar is equally as accessible.

But, there is an issue with the RAMD. Time and time again, I have been told that these boys struggle over terrain in Sarawak, unlike the RRD. The GOF is equally as good as the RRD on Sarawak, as it recruits heavily from the region, so as a Border force, it is remarkably effective.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Is the RRD made up of Dayak people only apart from the partly Malay officers and staff or are there other non-Malay ethnics in there, too (like Chinese, Indian etc.)? In East Malaysia self there is only one batallion of the RRD. The other 8 are based in West Malaysia.
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
In that respect, the RRD origins begins with the Sarawak Rangers. It is a mixed corp, but is it a fair comparison? Personally, I assume the RAMD is as good as the RRD, but the ethnic composition of both corp is something that no one is familiar: For a population of 700,000 the Armed Forces actively recruits from the Sea Dayak group. This has been going on for a long time.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Is it roughly known how much percent of the RRD are Dayak, Malaysian-Indians, Malaysian-Chinese, Malay etc.?

The recent coup in Thailand shows that there is still potential for sudden changes.
Yeah, and an almost-coup in Philippines as well. That's what I meant with "you can't foresee the future". But such things always take their time. Even if the Thailand coupsters would have been hostile to Malaysia to the point of war, they would most probably not have attacked immediately the next day. They would have needed time to mobilize their forces and Malaysia would use that time to react to this threat (by bringing troops to the border, activating reserve units etc.).
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
The statistics are not given. Assuming that the RAMD is an all Malay corp, then the RRD is a mixture of Malay, Dayak, Indian and Chinese. There are stats on the percentage of serving groups in the armed forces as a whole and in the the police services, but from what I've read in the media, it appears that the Chinese are the lowest serving percentage vis a vis their ethnicity in comparison to the Dayak, Malay and Indians. There are numerous reasons debated, not least because a career in the services for Chinese boys is often frowned upon by their families, compared to financial benefits that could be accrued in the world of business.

IMHO, I think the RRD should be increased in size to 15-16 Battalions, to raise it's parity with the RAMD (25 Battalions).
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
In Malaysia, nothing is ever clear cut as it seems. A balance is always sought. If you look at the ratio between the Police Services and the MAF, both are more or less equal in manpower, and unusually some elements between the two share the same responsibilities.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
...not least because a career in the services for Chinese boys is often frowned upon by their families, compared to financial benefits that could be accrued in the world of business...
True. A further elaboration:

Even service in the police force was frowned upon. Quite inexplicable.

But this could be because during the 60s and early 70s, there were possibly more crooks in the police force than there were on the streets.

But after decades of conscription in Chinese countries like Singapore and ROC, this is no longer true as the military is seen as the protector instead of the ancient role of being the persecutor of the people.

In fact, in China, the military is still held in high regard by most people.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
For a population of 700,000 the Armed Forces actively recruits from the Sea Dayak group.
You are just referring to East Malaysia with these data?

Any particular reason for choosing the Sea Dayaks? These are headhunters, if I'm not wrong? But aren't the Ibans or Land Dayak the better trackers etc?
 
Top