Way of using old tanks
- Thread starter evripide
- Start date
Thats true, but artillery spotting and counter battery technology is not LOS restricted.
We ran some tests on a counter battery technology last year that was providing a solution in micro seconds. If that system is slaved to a discretionary response, then it doesn't matter how shielded it is by terrain.
As an example, counter fire was occurring within 2 seconds of receiving the solution, and it was accurate on target to .5 metre.
I wouldn't want to be in a static arty postion (as thats fundamentally what it is), with a decent counter battery solution nearby (and up to 40km away)
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Neither would I, but the fire control solution may be provided in micro-seconds, but the gunners still have to prepare, load and fire the projectile (assuming that you don't have an endless supply of prepared projectiles lying around, in which case you'd want to be VERY confident about your enemies counter battery capability, charge bags have to be prepared, projectiles correctly fuzed, the projectile fired) and the projectile still has to make it's flight, which will add a few more seconds at 40k's....
Depending on the fire mission to be carried out, such as a battery level fire mission, all this may take more than several seconds, but I get the point.
I am aware that Counter-Battery fire isn't LOS restricted, my point being that a) you are considering a "first tier" Counter-battery solution that isn't possessed by all and b) that your own side (and we seem to be talking about South Korea here...) doesn't possess a high level counter-battery capability of it's own.
In addition to which your solution was obviously firing "guided" muntions, as un-guided artillery is nowhere NEAR that accurate at 40k's. The CEP is somewhere within 200m's for unguided 155mm...
I'd lose a couple of obsolete M48 turrets to identify my enemies artillery positions, identify their counter-battery response times and force them to expend their expensive, extended ranged guided munitions...
suddendeath
New Member
yes i whole heartingly agree was just quoting one example there are indeed several.and its correct they can be used as artillary but why buy tanks then Saddam hussien used t72 as fixed artillary positions during the gulf war.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War
What about reusing the chassis? You could fit an anti-aircraft turret (like the Marksman) or artillery turret (AUF-1, Palmaria, G6, etc.) or do a heavy APC conversion (like Temsah,Achzarit,or BTR-T).
Still leaves the turrets to be used for fixed emplacement, if you want.
Also, does anyone know if Israel offers a Sabra type upgrade for the M48? Between the armour improvements and the 120mm gun that upgrade would extend the M48's usefulness quite a bit.
Still leaves the turrets to be used for fixed emplacement, if you want.
Also, does anyone know if Israel offers a Sabra type upgrade for the M48? Between the armour improvements and the 120mm gun that upgrade would extend the M48's usefulness quite a bit.
The reason why the Iraqi army used them in a static defense was because they would become toast by pounching Apaches, A-10s just to name a few if they decided to venture into a meeting engagement, technology was in favor of the Coalition Forces.
As Swerve has mentioned this concept of using tank turrets in fix prepared positions have been used, there are plenty of old relics placed along the Russian and Chinese border. The problem is that the technology has far surpassed this type of defensive position, all it takes is a forward observer dismount painting these positions with a laser designator as a example and that would be the end of them in a rather quick fashion by artillery or air assets. These poor lads manning these positons would not even know what hit them.
As far as ROK goes - deliberate defensive fighting positions are already prepared and they are set up as a defensive fluid type action being primary, alternate and secondary positions, even their artillery batteries with the likes of M109 or K9 have positions set up to where all you can see the muzzles sticking out of the ground. There is no stand and die in place positions that have been established nor will there be, matter of fact they will become a fully offensive capable Army with the technology to back them up in a rather short period of time.
You're talking about South and North Korea.
No offence, but the expectation that current THEL, CLAWS and C-RAM would be able to cope with a stalinist artillery barrage philosophy is a bit optimistic.
Thats why area barrage and thermobaric weapons were developed. Saturate and smother at a protracted delivery rate so that the other side falls by attrition.
Austria did that about a decade ago. Bought 200 Centurions from the Netherlands, scrapped the chassis, and uses the turrets with 105mm guns for fortress emplacements (backed up by 155mm fortress artillery).
Do they still use them.
Yeah i just read the thread on North vs South, Bad Idea. The best use I see would be old style coastal defence guns, they can fire at ships with guided rounds and if you have a large number of them that prevents any attack back, destroying the targets outright before they can get a missile off he ground.
From a business perspective would tyhat be a good venture, modular turrets? you could have the Geopard AD turret, an M60 or M48 Turret even leo 1's...
Thats also a thought, Remote controlled stations with Autoloader's (well for countries thats can afford it or already have it)
Afaik, the systems were liquidated in 2003 - at least that's when they liquidated the simulator systems to train new turret crews.
The final list in 1990 had some 450 bunkers, equipped variably with Centurion 105mm turrets, uparmed Charioteer 105mm turrets, 20mm and 40mm AA guns, as well as old 155mm M2 Long Toms.
Over the times since the 50s, such stationary bunkers in Austria were equipped with pretty much anything that wasn't required "mobile" or considered obsolete at those times - leftover arms from WW2 such as German 7.5cm PAW recoilless rifles, 7.5cm PAK42 and 10.5cm leFh 18/40, Russian T34/85 (dug in with chassis), from the 60s on also American M24 and M47 turrets as well as British Charioteers with 20pdr guns.
Early 80s, they decided to "modernize" by buying obsolete Centurions and L7 guns (for the Charioteer turrets) all over Europe.
Apparently, demilitarization is going slowly, and at the end of 2006, some 100 such bunkers were still in place and armed.
In the end I think that what SK (And also countries like Germany during cold war) did is just the right way.
We are talking about conscript armys here. So add a new gun (105mm with modern KEs is still a good gun, especially against older equipment like the one of NK), new sights (With TI) and FCS and put them into storage for your non-active bns.
Equipping your reserve units with these old but still dangerous tanks is much better than putting them into fixed positions where they die fast while your wartime reserves run around as light infantry.
One ususally has a natural circle where the oldest tanks go into the reserve. As soon as SK has enough K1 and K2 they can scrap all of their remaining M48 and start to put more newer M60s into wartime stocks.
Just safe the money for the fixed positions to keep the circle alive and make sure that you have enough prepared firing positions and combat engineers supporting your troops.
We are talking about conscript armys here. So add a new gun (105mm with modern KEs is still a good gun, especially against older equipment like the one of NK), new sights (With TI) and FCS and put them into storage for your non-active bns.
Equipping your reserve units with these old but still dangerous tanks is much better than putting them into fixed positions where they die fast while your wartime reserves run around as light infantry.
One ususally has a natural circle where the oldest tanks go into the reserve. As soon as SK has enough K1 and K2 they can scrap all of their remaining M48 and start to put more newer M60s into wartime stocks.
Just safe the money for the fixed positions to keep the circle alive and make sure that you have enough prepared firing positions and combat engineers supporting your troops.
No M-60 series Waylander, but they do still use these.:shudder
Very interesting, it would be kind of neat to go and see some of these sites.
I think that the best use for them is to Mothball them, at least as many of the old ones as you have modern ones.
That way, if the balloon ever goes up and your main battle tanks are elsewhere, you have something on hand to start training more tank crews with while you are busy aqquiring more tanks, or building them (if you are lucky enough to have the ability).
It might also be handy to have some mobile artillery on hand to serve your internal security services, or to patrol long, empty coastlines. Tanks don't care much about fog or typhoons.
I did a little study years ago to try to find a use for a bunch of old T-34s, back when North Yemen was having a problem with south Yemen. We playe around with the idea of taking the turrets off (with most of the upper hull decking) for use in forts, and using the chassis for towing artillery.
Problems;
The Chassis is helped by the weight reduction, but not enough to make them enjoy a long life as a tractor. Also, removing too much armor runs the serous risk of weakening the structure... to the point where really embarassing accidents start happening.
85mm guns in armored turrets were a very attractive solution to harbor security in Hudaydah, since nothing out of Aden but Osa class boats could have challenged them, in the unlikely event that they could have targeted the little guys.
However... have you ever been there? Hot, nasty and humid. They would have been unlivable without climate control and other goodies that would have made them painfully easy to spot.
There was an idea to mount them in revetments carved into cliff-faces. Bomb-proof, but the tunneling needed to service them was hideously expensive.
Here is an odd note- finding men to serve these little forts is not difficult. Home-town reservists can always be found who like wearing the uniform, but don't like going to far from home.
So, my best solution is to keep the tanks yo can't get a good price for, and forget fiddling with the components. They are much more useful in one peice.
That way, if the balloon ever goes up and your main battle tanks are elsewhere, you have something on hand to start training more tank crews with while you are busy aqquiring more tanks, or building them (if you are lucky enough to have the ability).
It might also be handy to have some mobile artillery on hand to serve your internal security services, or to patrol long, empty coastlines. Tanks don't care much about fog or typhoons.
I did a little study years ago to try to find a use for a bunch of old T-34s, back when North Yemen was having a problem with south Yemen. We playe around with the idea of taking the turrets off (with most of the upper hull decking) for use in forts, and using the chassis for towing artillery.
Problems;
The Chassis is helped by the weight reduction, but not enough to make them enjoy a long life as a tractor. Also, removing too much armor runs the serous risk of weakening the structure... to the point where really embarassing accidents start happening.
85mm guns in armored turrets were a very attractive solution to harbor security in Hudaydah, since nothing out of Aden but Osa class boats could have challenged them, in the unlikely event that they could have targeted the little guys.
However... have you ever been there? Hot, nasty and humid. They would have been unlivable without climate control and other goodies that would have made them painfully easy to spot.
There was an idea to mount them in revetments carved into cliff-faces. Bomb-proof, but the tunneling needed to service them was hideously expensive.
Here is an odd note- finding men to serve these little forts is not difficult. Home-town reservists can always be found who like wearing the uniform, but don't like going to far from home.
So, my best solution is to keep the tanks yo can't get a good price for, and forget fiddling with the components. They are much more useful in one peice.
Ooops, thought the ROK also has M60s in service.
No problem, about the time we started using M60A3 models in ROK, the ROK started producing and entering into service the K-88 ie K1, and havent looked back since.Ooops, thought the ROK also has M60s in service.
We can add Brazil, Israel, Jordan, Thailand, Tunisia to that list also. Here is a pretty neat upgrade that Jordan has done, we already know what Israel has accomplished with the Sabra upgrades.