Mini Abrams...

AGRA

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I have no problem with a discussion and I am perfectly able to change my mind if somebody discusses with me and I see that his arguments are strong.
But AGRA brought his examples before. And placing two units (one heavy and one medium) in the middle of nowhere, with surprisingly good ground for wheeled vehicles and with only the medium unit being highly networked and technical advanced is not a good example.
You just cannot say that medium units can use their advantages against heavy ones and are a substitute for them because it works in a lonely flat desert with unequal opponents.
It proves that Stryker Brigades are able to be shipped to some 3rd world chaos country and have enough punch to go against a local heavy unit.
Who said anything about deserts. I said 'open terrain'. Might as well be the flowing farmlands of the North German plain, the South of England, etc. The Australian reference terrain used in our studies is a big piece of dirt from Darwin to about Katherine (300km x 200km). This is not a stereotypical view of outback Australia being desert. It’s just as rough and corrugated as anywhere else in the world, constrained by quite a few rivers and even swamps. It lacks the kind of local road infrastructure you would find in Germany. In fact there is only one sealed road and about 10 dirt roads in the entire block of terrain.

Now the threat force was realistic. Until the Russians and the Chinese start matching NATO aligned forces for combat communications and battlefield ISR it would be wrong to plane for an ‘equal’ force. It will take them decades to get where we are now and by then we will be beyond what even FCS is offering.

That’s like sending British regiments to Africa in 1870 and expecting them to fight the Prussian Army.
 

lobbie111

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Fighting a large scale conflict and using cities as choke points will not slow down your opponent, he will most likely bypass you with the majority of his fighting force and mop you up after they have achieved their objectives, remember speed is the name of the game even for heavy size units. Russians are very good at this, if they come up against a sizable force of resistance then they will bypass you and pound the living snot out of you with artillery and air assets until they come for you at a later time.

FCS is supposed to have good protection systems in place, with hard kill and soft kill systems, intel and good armor with lethal firepower, will they use M1s and Bradley fighting vehicles augmented with FCS weapons platforms remains to be seen, we just may end up with 3 different fighting forces in the U.S, Heavy, Medium and light, we just need to see if the capabilities offered with the FCS program live up to our expectations.
Remember this war was to have equal air assets. By bypassing a city it leaves the heavy forces supply lines open for attack. MANPAD's should be sufficient for warding off enemy aircraft. Artillery is a fact of life, once the artillery starts raining you would get used to it wouldn't you say. Plus it depends on civilians would a force like the US pound the crap out of a city with 100 000 civilians in it?

And you do realize what you have now just said. Now your Arty and Air units are held up out of range and your supplies are being harased by mobile forces using hit and run tactics. Now we can use 120mm guided mortars and guided weapons as well as air support at our whim to break up your concentrations of tanks.
 

AGRA

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Remember this war was to have equal air assets. By bypassing a city it leaves the heavy forces supply lines open for attack. MANPAD's should be sufficient for warding off enemy aircraft. Artillery is a fact of life, once the artillery starts raining you would get used to it wouldn't you say. Plus it depends on civilians would a force like the US pound the crap out of a city with 100 000 civilians in it?
Bypassing a city does not mean ignoring it. It would be encircled and sealed, because it is cut of from supplies the combat power of any enemy force in the city is drastically reduced as they can't sustain much fighting.

Artillery is not a fact of life, it doesn't come out of the heavens. Nor are MANPADs sufficient defence against aircraft. MANPADs have a maximum altitude of 10,000 feet, most fighter bombers can fly as high as 40,000 feet.

And you do realize what you have now just said. Now your Arty and Air units are held up out of range and your supplies are being harased by mobile forces using hit and run tactics. Now we can use 120mm guided mortars and guided weapons as well as air support at our whim to break up your concentrations of tanks.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
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Remember this war was to have equal air assets. By bypassing a city it leaves the heavy forces supply lines open for attack. MANPAD's should be sufficient for warding off enemy aircraft. Artillery is a fact of life, once the artillery starts raining you would get used to it wouldn't you say. Plus it depends on civilians would a force like the US pound the crap out of a city with 100 000 civilians in it?

And you do realize what you have now just said. Now your Arty and Air units are held up out of range and your supplies are being harased by mobile forces using hit and run tactics. Now we can use 120mm guided mortars and guided weapons as well as air support at our whim to break up your concentrations of tanks.
Why are you so hell bent in thinking that a heavy modern mechanized force is going to not safe guard their logistics, is this your argument that the primary mission for your medium force is gonna go for the supply lines and that is it, end of battle because those Russian T-90s and BMP 3s are out of bullets and fuel, and do you really think that by hiding in a city that you can come and go as you please and commit hit and run tactics, if they place a screening force to contain you inside of a city, you aint going anywhere I do not care that you have vehicles that can drive 62 MPH down roads. And now you are makling the claim that you will just use guided 120 mm mortar rounds to break up tank formations and you are hoping that you can dominate the skies when the Russians have some of the most deadliest ADA assets currently available. I should also point out that Russians really do not care like we do when it comes to leveling a city, do not count on them to show you any compassion because you were gambling for your safety by hiding in amongst civilians.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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I should also point out that Russians really do not care like we do when it comes to leveling a city, do not count on them to show you any compassion because you were gambling for your safety by hiding in amongst civilians.
A poor but somewhat relevant example is the interpretation of "Total War"

I'd suggest that the russians are close supporters to the Jinghiz Khan interpretation, whereas the US is closer to Grant (and only in the 21st cent contemp sense)
 

lobbie111

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How would they safeguard their logistics without loosing a significant portion of their manouver forces (Russia might because of the large size of its heavy brigades)?

No, not hiding all the forces in a city. Just by disracting artillery can allow forces out on the flanks of the battlfield to come in and 'rescue' the besieged troops. A medium force has a better chance of cutting off the rear of a heavy force using hit and run stlye tactics not in direct contact.

I agree with you in the fact that in direct contact a medium force is screwed, there is no way for a medium force to beat a heavy force if it is in contact.

I did not say just 120mm mortar rounds, they could make up a large component of breaking up a concentration but mobile Javelin teams say in Polaris Rangers Just like the Swiss use that fire off a couple of rounds and then leave.

Btw...maybe we should stop using example armies such as the US and Russia because I stated in my last post that is was the US that was besieging the city. Granted a medium force may have been beaten because of russian tactics and 'ruthlesness' but could you agree the US may have had a little trouble there?

We, well mainly you... are switching countries with different doctrines to suit your argument

You guys don't seem to get what im saying so I'll draw a pretty picture
 
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eckherl

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How would they safeguard their logistics without loosing a significant portion of their manouver forces (Russia might because of the large size of its heavy brigades)?

No, not hiding all the forces in a city. Just by disracting artillery can allow forces out on the flanks of the battlfield to come in and 'rescue' the besieged troops. A medium force has a better chance of cutting off the rear of a heavy force using hit and run stlye tactics not in direct contact.

I agree with you in the fact that in direct contact a medium force is screwed, there is no way for a medium force to beat a heavy force if it is in contact.

I did not say just 120mm mortar rounds, they could make up a large component of breaking up a concentration but mobile Javelin teams say in Polaris Rangers Just like the Swiss use that fire off a couple of rounds and then leave.

Btw...maybe we should stop using example armies such as the US and Russia because I stated in my last post that is was the US that was besieging the city. Granted a medium force may have been beaten because of russian tactics and 'ruthlesness' but could you agree the US may have had a little trouble there?

We, well mainly you... are switching countries with different doctrines to suit your argument

You guys don't seem to get what im saying so I'll draw a pretty picture
And the U.S has smaller mechanized combat brigades, we actually manuever with bigger size units over the Russians per infantry and armored units as per TO&E. Okay - lets not compare Russian brutality over the U.S forces pacifistic approach to taking a city. Your concept has only been used for quick reactionary forces to be placed until heavy on forces could be brought to bear on the battle meaning you would fight a delaying action type scenario, your concept has only been used to provide recon and screening actions on the battlefield. No one has ever tried using medium forces to solely take on a sizable air land battle force with the notion of totally destroying that force. Again - when FCS totally matures then we will see what can be done, using hit and run tactics on todays modern battlefield will not get the job done and is only wishful thinking on your part.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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You guys don't seem to get what im saying so I'll draw a pretty picture
You might want to pull your head in a little - or if its not your intent to be rude, then work out a way to rephrase your replies.

Note that Eckherl has actually served, and is more than in a postion to discuss issues of manouvre and doctrine with respect to his craft.
 

Waylander

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Clearly you are talking above your pay grade, if you had ever served in a unit or formation HQ you would know it’s not all as simple as you make out. Where do you think all that fuel come from to keep your heavy force mobile? How does a tank brigade get into battle? Who organises the road routes and tank transporters. Warfare is all about logistics and all about higher level manoeuvre. The final tactical battle may get all the press but usually by then the result has already been decided.

But don’t take my ‘wisdom’ for granted. What I am talking about here is backed up by EVERY SINGLE serious thinker about warfare and winner of battles and wars. Perhaps you should read some Guderian, you might have heard of him before.

But never let historical military reality get in the way of a good story that helps one sell bigger and more expensive tanks. Sure the Germans conquered France in 1940 with pipsqueak Panzer IIs, sure the Soviets did it back to the Germans with comparatively lightweight T-34s, the Israelis won with Shermans and AMX-13s vs Egyptian IS-3s, the South Africans with Ratels vs T-55s, India with PT-76s, etc, etc. But lets keep building bigger and heavier tanks.

It looks much better that way.
Yeah, and Shermans, T-34s, PzII, etc. had a serious advantage when it came to cross country performance over for example a Tiger, Königstiger or IS-3.
But also PzII,even the upgraded ones, had serious problems with T-34s.
And because of what? Because T-34s managed to stay maneuverable despite having good firepower and armor.
Nowadays a MBT/IFV force is matched by what on terms of firepower, armor AND mobility on the battlefield?
You cannot rant about the ugly big movers of these days without considering the fact that with the appereance of real MBTs the problem that heavy armor and firepower was contradictal against mobility faded away.

BTW, the conquer of france was a result of poor french planning and flexibility of the higher decision makers.
If the French had used their assets up to their limits it wouldn't have been a walk in the park for the Wehrmacht.

Your talking about logistics is great and right. And I never countered the idea of medium forces having a higher mobility on the streets to reach their area of operations.
But once there they just have a problem holding their ground in direct fights against heavy echelons riding into their direction not to talk of offensive operations against prepared heavy forces.

Use them as intended. Be it as a deployable force for oversea missions where they can stand their ground against 3rd world units, use their heavy infantry component to do you favors in heavy terrain, cities, etc. or use them as a fire force and throw them into holes in your frontline, a little bit similar to what we intended to use our airborn forces for in case of cold war turned hot.

And if your logistic can just support medium units because heavy units tend to use too much support for you then you have a problem with your logistic network and not with your idea using of heavy units.
 

Waylander

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Who said anything about deserts. I said 'open terrain'. Might as well be the flowing farmlands of the North German plain, the South of England, etc. The Australian reference terrain used in our studies is a big piece of dirt from Darwin to about Katherine (300km x 200km). This is not a stereotypical view of outback Australia being desert. It’s just as rough and corrugated as anywhere else in the world, constrained by quite a few rivers and even swamps. It lacks the kind of local road infrastructure you would find in Germany. In fact there is only one sealed road and about 10 dirt roads in the entire block of terrain.

Now the threat force was realistic. Until the Russians and the Chinese start matching NATO aligned forces for combat communications and battlefield ISR it would be wrong to plane for an ‘equal’ force. It will take them decades to get where we are now and by then we will be beyond what even FCS is offering.

That’s like sending British regiments to Africa in 1870 and expecting them to fight the Prussian Army.
I can tell you that in the northern plains of germany wheeled vehicles just have a problem, apart from the street network, compared to heavy tracked forces.
You can believe what you want about me talking above my paygrade but I have seen enough mud moving here (This is still my home turf) to say that.
They might reach the area of operations earlier and faster than a heavy unit but once there they are going to get into serious trouble countering the cross country punch brought to bear against them by heavy forces.
BTW, do you plan to stay roadbound right up to contact?

And how often can I say that I firmly believe that a Stryker Brigade (especially when backed up by nearly total US air superiority) is going to punch a technical inferior heavy unit into the ground. This is especially the case when they actually have enough room to maneuver nearly freely in this battlebox.

But that is not what I am talking about.
I am talking about real frontlines between much more equal forces than what we have seen for example during OIF.
And even there the US used heavy assets to punch through every strongpoint the Iraqis managed to build up.
 

lobbie111

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I think we should just agree to disagree...I do not see any of us reaching a resolution to this debate anytime soon.
 

Waylander

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Ok, a new nice powerpoint presentation about the FCS family.
Apart from them finally getting some M designations one thing is interesting.

Looks like the Mounted Combat System is going to have a 3 man crew (Page 3).
So much for "New vehicles like the FCS are going to allow a 2 men crew for direct combat platforms"...
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
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Ok, a new nice powerpoint presentation about the FCS family.
Apart from them finally getting some M designations one thing is interesting.

Looks like the Mounted Combat System is going to have a 3 man crew (Page 3).
So much for "New vehicles like the FCS are going to allow a 2 men crew for direct combat platforms"...
You did not really expect them to reduce a crew down to two persons did you, as you know Waylander there is way too much responsibilitie/s for a crew that is going to be in direct contact with the enemy, some folks think that I have gone insane with the notion that they will have 4 crewmembers shoehorned in a M1A3, but it may in fact become reality.
 

Waylander

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No, I defenitely never expected them to be able to do this.
But this topic originated in the idea of minimizing a MBT and some people here advocated that it would be possible to downsize the crew to 2 men without seriously reducing effectiveness.

But if even the very optimistic FCS program with it's incredible degree of automation and networking isn't going to have a 2 men crew than I don't see why people could think that it will be possible in the near future.
How much more money and time does one needs...?
 

eckherl

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No, I defenitely never expected them to be able to do this.
But this topic originated in the idea of minimizing a MBT and some people here advocated that it would be possible to downsize the crew to 2 men without seriously reducing effectiveness.

But if even the very optimistic FCS program with it's incredible degree of automation and networking isn't going to have a 2 men crew than I don't see why people could think that it will be possible in the near future.
How much more money and time does one needs...?
We will all soon see, they want the first combat brigade to be fully functional with in the next five years, plus they just dumped some major funding in the FCS project/concept to speed up the manufacturing process on some of the weapons platforms. Technology at todays standards in quite impressive and you would be surprised to know just how closely we followed the Germans on the PUMA development.
 

Waylander

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I expect some similarities when it comes to the development of the FCS IFV.

The Puma is the first IFV which fully uses the unmanned turret design and has the same goals. Good protection, good sensors, deployable by air and networked.
When it comes to ground combat vehicles I don't see the US being far ahead of the German manufacturers and so it is logical to see some similarities.
 

lobbie111

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can you guys provide a link to the powerpointif its online...thanks in advance. Could we see the puma being used as a base model for the system? That would be great and open up doors for more export (germany remanufacturing to their standard and Australia possibly with the Labour government).

I also have another querstion why couldn't the USMC develop an amphibious version of the tank for lighter landings, I understand that the AAV or whatever is called is quite a heavy armoured vehicle. Could FCS be also put in service for ligther landings and sustained operations.

Also what about ta family for the AAV, especially a 155, with all that room for ammo it would be great.
 

Waylander

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Uups, sorry that I forgot to insert the link.
Here it is.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007combat...eCombatSystemsPANEL1030amREVISED/DavidOgg.pdf

I am going to bet all my money that they are not going to use the Puma as a base.
It is too heavy and they already put alot of effort (and money...) into their idea of an ideal chassis.

And that's exactly the problem I have with the FCS program.
It is going to be hard enough for them to get the Infantry Combat Vehicle (IFV version) working with the same amount of protection and firepwoer like current modern IFVs while staying a lot lighter.

I am defenitely not going to see that this is really possible with the MCS.
A 3 men crew, a good gun, good protection and good mobility. And all of this with a light chassis...
I mean how much add-on armor do they want to use?
 

eckherl

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Uups, sorry that I forgot to insert the link.
Here it is.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007combat...eCombatSystemsPANEL1030amREVISED/DavidOgg.pdf

I am going to bet all my money that they are not going to use the Puma as a base.
It is too heavy and they already put alot of effort (and money...) into their idea of an ideal chassis.

And that's exactly the problem I have with the FCS program.
It is going to be hard enough for them to get the Infantry Combat Vehicle (IFV version) working with the same amount of protection and firepwoer like current modern IFVs while staying a lot lighter.

I am defenitely not going to see that this is really possible with the MCS.
A 3 men crew, a good gun, good protection and good mobility. And all of this with a light chassis...
I mean how much add-on armor do they want to use?
Did not mean to state that it will be a Puma platform, you guys placed a lot of thought process into the Puma to be able to handle current and future threats on the battlefield so we would most certainly want to know some of the finer points with things that got you to that level.:)
 
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