Mini Abrams...

lobbie111

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Well I think I found my answer to this thread in the new Japenese Prototype TKX. Weighs only 44 tonnes has similar protection, an autoloader and is integrated into networked systems...Do I smell a US/Japan Co-operation (sharing of technologies)?
 

Waylander

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This is your answer to this thread?
This is exactly what we said before, one cannot shrink a MBT that much and that 40-45 tons with a 3 men crew is much more realistic than a really small vehicle.

In the end the Leclerc is not that far away from that idea with it's roughly 55 tons, 3 men + autoloader, integrated modern network and modular armor concept.
And the current Japanese Type 90 is also not that far away with it's 50 tons, 3 men + autoloader and modern electronics.

And why should this be the result of Japanese/US cooperation?
The L/44 which is also in use with the Type 90 is a licensed Rheinmetall gun as well as the ammunition.
If one looks at the frontal armor configuration of the TKX it also looks much more like the KWS II armor upgrade for the Leopard II.
They worked together with german companies during the developement of the Type 90.

In the end I would think it is much more plausible that the either designed it indigenious (They should have the knowledge by now) or with some german help. I don't want to rule out other possibilities but they are less likely.
 

eckherl

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Well I think I found my answer to this thread in the new Japenese Prototype TKX. Weighs only 44 tonnes has similar protection, an autoloader and is integrated into networked systems...Do I smell a US/Japan Co-operation (sharing of technologies)?
You are basing your answer on a tank that is still in a experimental stage, you and a alot of other folks on this forum will not know what the exact specs on this vehicle or a FCS vehicle will be until they are produced and you may not even know then. Lets clarify something with the likes of vehicles in the Leclerc armor range, know one knows the exact weight of their heavy armor package, so it is quite possible that it is a heck of alot heavier than what is being published.
 

lobbie111

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Wern't you praising the tank in the thread, I don't care about its final specifications but the concept was what I was looking for, It will probably have a bolt on heavy armour package (only putting the heavy stuff on for combat, before entering the combatzone not when you get there.)
 

eckherl

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Wern't you praising the tank in the thread, I don't care about its final specifications but the concept was what I was looking for, It will probably have a bolt on heavy armour package (only putting the heavy stuff on for combat, before entering the combatzone not when you get there.)

It is not designed to be a fast deployable tank, not at that weight and size, and do you really think that they would be able to bolt on the armor out in a field without major support. Please read what AGR and Wooki wrote inregards to this very same issue concerning logistical and ord support. As far as giving praise to it, why not, if they placed as much finess into it like they did with the Type 90 then it will be a darn good package.
 

eckherl

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I would have to agree. Assuming that "Mini-Abrams" = FCS and the Puma is a good template for the FCS, then the use of the rubber band track is probably the major difference. Adopting the rubber track and using a "kit" approach to uparmor to threats, has got lots of logistics issues that I don't think anyone has really addressed.

Lets look at the armor issue and what effect adopting things like kits and band track have:

A year or so ago, I wrote a small paper on a proposed AFV and had it circulated at the Command College for a bit of feedback. I was stunned by the poor reception to armor kits. Most of these guys were Majors (a few Colonels) and to a man they absolutely hated the "kit a, kit b, kit c "approach that you see the US Army and Marines adopting with their new vehicles.

The reason? Logistics. It is simply a pain in the a$$ to bring these kits online in the field and takes up a huge amount of time retorfitting it to vehicles that have been in-country for a few months. Things break on these vehicles ( normal wear and tear) and they get in field repairs which then makes the kit not fit. So the teams end up having to work backwards and repair the repair and then apply the kit, but oh then some of the kits are not packed properly and you are missing components. Result? It can quickly become a major pain to apply a kit to one vehicle and you can easily find yourself days behind schedule. Just one vehicle can have a disproportionate effect on your manpower.

So then how do you solve this problem? The army is going for longer lasting tracks, but those band tracks are segmented. That is a different sort of fish to the normal track and I guess you have to find someone who worked on an Ontoss or some crazy vehicle like that to learn the tricks of thre trade to replace those track sements quickly.

Another way to get around this problem is , well, to forget kits. I know, I know, I am going to be struck down for suggesting it, but isn't the Puma design kind of stepping along those lines already? Its very heavy to begin with. It still has kits but not to the extent of a USA FCS. Why not go one step further and actually think about customizing the vehicle to spec on the factory floor?

That means developing capacity to actually retool to a spec on the fly. Something US industry can't do at the moment, but what if you could? The biggest gripe about the Iraq-saga is the USA industrial complex's inabilty to respond to the changing tactical environment. MRAP is a symptom of this.

Takes months, years to build a bigger truck, but maybe a few days for the enemy to build a bigger bomb to suit said truck.

So, I feel the answer is actually here, on the shop floor, rather then out there , emptying sand out of your boots. Or bringing the shop floor closer to the people with the sandy boots.

So, in this regard, I have a very watchful eye on the FCS program. It doesn't address any of the issues that I have spoken about, other then RFPs for longer lasting bits and pieces. The end game is that the Army will think it can down size on its maintenance guys (one of the desired paradigms of transformation) but find itself short when all of a sudden they want to use kits to suit the tactical environment and over strain the maintenance guys they have left that survived that downsizing.

my 2c


cheers


w
Here is one of the FCS platforms with one of your favorite items, Rubber Tracks. I hope we are not heading for a train wreck with this.:unknown
 

lobbie111

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It is not designed to be a fast deployable tank, not at that weight and size, and do you really think that they would be able to bolt on the armor out in a field without major support. Please read what AGR and Wooki wrote inregards to this very same issue concerning logistical and ord support. As far as giving praise to it, why not, if they placed as much finess into it like they did with the Type 90 then it will be a darn good package.
No I too were saying it is not practical to be put on on the field, what I meant is that it is put on before going on the plane, and you would have room for extra ammo etc. but it would be good however if you can fit four tanks into three aircraft after the initial strike (2 in the first two C-17's and spare parts, logistics and the Armour package in the third one...

Can you tell me (I don't really know) if you can fit a fully deployable Abrams (as in roll off and start shooting) in the back of a C-17?
 

eckherl

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No I too were saying it is not practical to be put on on the field, what I meant is that it is put on before going on the plane, and you would have room for extra ammo etc. but it would be good however if you can fit four tanks into three aircraft after the initial strike (2 in the first two C-17's and spare parts, logistics and the Armour package in the third one...

Can you tell me (I don't really know) if you can fit a fully deployable Abrams (as in roll off and start shooting) in the back of a C-17?

With smaller FCS armored vehicles yes it is possible to get a three of them into a C-17 fully ready to shoot and scoot, that includes their armored package tailored for the area of operations.

A C-17 can lift 1 fully operational M1 series tank with a few other vehicles or pallets of materials, they would most likely cut back on the fuel load and top it off after arriving.
 

eckherl

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you were on the m8 program eck??:p:
Oh no - just a little shocked that they will actually try and utilize them, as you can see with the earlier M8 it has steel tracks compared to the newer platfrom that has rubber.
 

lobbie111

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Oh no - just a little shocked that they will actually try and utilize them, as you can see with the earlier M8 it has steel tracks compared to the newer platform that has rubber.
Well you could always use what's on the Swedish Bv's (pdf) I don't really care at this stage, I want to see them get into service first, I acknowledge that it is an important issue but With the amount of R+D going into these things they should do well.
 

eckherl

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Well you could always use what's on the Swedish Bv's (pdf) I don't really care at this stage, I want to see them get into service first, I acknowledge that it is an important issue but With the amount of R+D going into these things they should do well.
We shall see, we have been down this road before without suceess.
 

lobbie111

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Does anyone have pictures of Super Gavins or Just the Gavins In Iraq, What I really want to see is a few of these new FCS with some popup M134's like ive seen in youtube (I know, I know). For infantry use in close combat etc.
 

Waylander

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Aaaaaaah, he is infected.

DECONTAMINATION!!! :D

Do you know Sparky? ;)
He invented the name Gavin during is decade long, epic rant against the Stryker, Humvee and other wheeled deathtraps as well as against the USMC while on the other hand proposing the use of mechanized air assault units equipped with M113s and bikes...:dodgy .
 

swerve

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Does anyone have pictures of Super Gavins or Just the Gavins In Iraq, What I really want to see is a few of these new FCS with some popup M134's like ive seen in youtube (I know, I know). For infantry use in close combat etc.
There is no such thing as the Gavin - or, in Sparky style, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE GAVIN, YOU ***TARD LOSER ENLISTEDMAN NARCISSIST! (Don't take that personally - just illustrating his posting style). If I choose to call the Fv438 the Donald, it doesn't make it so, & no more does a single mentally-ill mans obsessive campaign make "Gavin" the name for any armoured vehicle.

The Sparky Waylander refers to is one Mike Sparks. He has many internet personae, & is barred from this & just about every other internet forum, except for those he has created himself, for his objectionable behaviour, including posting as above. He decided, without reference to the US army or anyone else, to call the M113 the "Gavin".

Here is a discussion of him . . .

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23374
 
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eckherl

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Aaaaaaah, he is infected.

DECONTAMINATION!!! :D

Do you know Sparky? ;)
He invented the name Gavin during is decade long, epic rant against the Stryker, Humvee and other wheeled deathtraps as well as against the USMC while on the other hand proposing the use of mechanized air assault units equipped with M113s and bikes...:dodgy .
Oh no - Sparkey got to him to. :cry2 We need to snap you out of this Lobbie111.:(
 

Wooki

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Oh no - Sparkey got to him to. :cry2 We need to snap you out of this Lobbie111.:(
I thought about claiming to be sparky myself, just to stir some shite, but don't have the energy to keep up the pretense.

You could give him (lobbie) a mixed drink with that stuff they have in SAIC water coolers and then some LM water cooler plus a touch of GDLS water cooler and see what walks out of the office at the end of the day.

That might be worth a photo.

I'm not surprised that United Defense are behind the track concept as (if you look up certain webpage of he-who-shall-not-be-named) it shows an APC band track.

Not that I am a tanker wanker, but when posed with the problem of making it easier to change out, it went from much sucking of teeth to serious frown very quickly. The long and the short of it is that its a risk. It depends on who you talk to on any given day as to whether that risk is acceptable or not.

cheers

w
 

eckherl

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I thought about claiming to be sparky myself, just to stir some shite, but don't have the energy to keep up the pretense.

You could give him (lobbie) a mixed drink with that stuff they have in SAIC water coolers and then some LM water cooler plus a touch of GDLS water cooler and see what walks out of the office at the end of the day.

That might be worth a photo.

I'm not surprised that United Defense are behind the track concept as (if you look up certain webpage of he-who-shall-not-be-named) it shows an APC band track.

Not that I am a tanker wanker, but when posed with the problem of making it easier to change out, it went from much sucking of teeth to serious frown very quickly. The long and the short of it is that its a risk. It depends on who you talk to on any given day as to whether that risk is acceptable or not.

cheers

w
Could it be that there is two different types of tracks, rubber for training purposes and steel and rubber for combat theater of operations.
 

lobbie111

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I apologize for my aparent lack of knowledge on the subjects, well can I see some pictures or just some web links of refurbished M113's in Iraq...:unknown

How about Steel Frames with rubber pads (is that what they do now) like putting in rubber in between the gaps of your bike chain?

BTW I was not aware of Sparky Whatsoever I was on a geocities site which praised the M113 and refered to it as the Gavin, maybe made by Sparky.
 
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Waylander

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Right there are indeed steel tracks in use which have rubber pads attached to them.

BTW, if the ground is very bad or snowy we replace some of the rubber pads with steel claws (Does somebody has a better name?).
How is this increased contact to bad ground achieved when using rubber tracks?
Is there a tech which allows similar attachements to rubber tracks?
 
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