Gulf War 1 "What ifs"

[eckherl]

Just infantry part of a mechanized infantry unit. Incompetent would be saying it nicely but I wasn't impressed by him at all. Never felt he knew his _hit and spent more time putting down his country and saying how badly he wanted to leave. I think he left early myself (hint) once I get PM powers here I'll explain better. He also lived in Egypt as well after and said there army and military overall was light years better. He went off on things like they the Saudi's don't like to fix truck's, tanks, etc, that they look down at that type of work. He said they hired a lot of outside help from Pakistan that they didn't like to do hard work themselves. I think I flip him out asking so many questions I never met anybody from that part of the world before. He was not a military person period hated it. Lost contact with the friend and last I knew he made sandwiches in a deli. Send me an e-mail or PM I'll gladly fill you in.

PM me let me know what you thought of them?

I`ll send you a E mail, but I would like to state that my impression is this guy may be a little disgruntled. I found that they were very competant and I would not have any issues fighting with them on our side. You most surely have read articles in regards to the Saudi Air Force, everything that I have heard is that they are top notch.

 

[Izzy1]

They are trying to change...

 

[Izzy1]

I was personaly involved, so I will try not to make this too personal-

what if :-

1. Iraqi army made a surprise attack on US airbases and US rear
When?

2. Iraqi army launched a surprised attack during several months of allied logistic preparation and special training.
They did not have the Airpower to cover such a move. Saudi F-15s and US Navy Carrier Air groups would have torn into them.

3. Iraqi army launch harassing attack on allied flanks during their advance.
Chaos, absolute chaos.
We spent more than double the time just sitting around as we did moving forward, or in any direction... and I was with 3rd Armored Division making that left-hook.
When I first saw the plan of advance, the first thing it reminded me of was the German advance on Stalingrad. Those nice, neat lines had several Divisions crossing each other's line of advance... not a happy idea.

One night, my unit recieved word from Intelignece; "the Tawaqualna Division of the Repulblican Guard is on the run, chase them down!"
We found them 10 minutes later, and they were on the move. But, they were coming TOWARDS us! It's a serious pucker-factor when you meet BMPs, Artilllery and tanks and all you have is a few Bradleys... and it took a while to sort things out, as you can imagine.


4. Iraq possesed a Nuclear Deterence.
They would have gotten away with it, plain and simple. That is why Iran is trying so hard to get one of thier own.



The best move for Saddam would have been to keep going that same week. He might even have been able to take out Saudi Airbases with a sneak-attack, and gone all the way to the Empty Quarter before we could have done anything about it.
However, if he had gone that far, his army would have been awfuly spread out, and vulnerable to all sorts of raids and amphibious strikes at his flanks on the penninsula.

Who knows, we might even have made a friend of Iran in the process of getting it all settled. Sure would be a different world, eh?

Seriously - Can I take this in parts? I'd be here all night otherwise.

 

[eaf-f16]

I`ll send you a E mail, but I would like to state that my impression is this guy may be a little disgruntled. I found that they were very competant and I would not have any issues fighting with them on our side. You most surely have read articles in regards to the Saudi Air Force, everything that I have heard is that they are top notch.

You worked with the Saudis before? How were they in comparison to Western militaries?

I also heard stuff about them thinking maintenance work was below them before. Is that even true?

 

[Izzy1]

You worked with the Saudis before? How were they in comparison to Western militaries?

I also heard stuff about them thinking maintenance work was below them before. Is that even true?

EAF, what's this all about? The Saudi logistics train is, granted, longer than most. It also probably includeds the best tech and mech monesy can buy. It surpasses anything Egypt has - Saudi could sustain a war against Tel Aviv. And make the West pay for it politically too.

 

[ROCK45]

Other post

I'm sorry I didn't mean to come across that the Saudi's were this or that. One unhappy person doesn't sum up the Saudi's armed forces in anyway, shape, or form. I usually put more into my post's then that I would take the word or the advise from people who serve there over the one guy I hardly knew. I just wanted to clear that up a little.

 

[eaf-f16]

EAF, what's this all about? The Saudi logistics train is, granted, longer than most. It also probably includeds the best tech and mech monesy can buy. It surpasses anything Egypt has - Saudi could sustain a war against Tel Aviv. And make the West pay for it politically too.

First of all, no it can't.

Second of all, what's "monesy" and "includeds"?

Third of all, I wasn't trying to be insulting. I was trying to get information/learn about something from someone that had 1st hand experience or more knowledge than me. This is allowed under forum rules, in fact, it's the point of DT.

Fourth of all, everybody knows (including me) that Saudi Arabia has the best facilities money can buy. Better than most Developed nations let alone a poor country like Egypt. What I don't know is whether it has good trained personnel. Something impossible for me to know considering there is no reliable or recent source of information for it. This why I was asking someone who had said he worked with the Saudis to provide me with some information.

And finally, why do I never see you posting anything of value?

You troll threads, post more one-liners (usually insulting or non-nonsensical) than any poster I have ever seen (let alone a Mod), if you do manage to exceed one line in a post it usually doesn't make sense, is insulting or of little to no contribution to the discussion and you send racist or insulting messages to me about Arabs (even though you claim to be Saudi).

 

[eckherl]

You worked with the Saudis before? How were they in comparison to Western militaries?

I also heard stuff about them thinking maintenance work was below them before. Is that even true?

Yes I have worked with them before, not on a extensive basis though like some of my past counterparts have.

They do seem to have alot of different platforms on hand and I would think that it will be a logistical issue for support for a full blown war scenario.
As compared to what Western Military, we seem to have our own way of doing things these days, and Saudi Arabia battle doctrine is tuned for their homeland and priorities. As far as them thinking that maintenance work is below them I will state that they do hire people to take care of their equipment, to the extent of that I really do not know and maybe one of our Saudi members could weigh in on that.

My impression of reguler Saudi ground forces is that they are up to the job of defending their Kingdom, as far as naval or air units I would not know, but I was told second hand that Saudi pilots performed bravely and with success during Desert Storm.

 

[eckherl]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to come across that the Saudi's were this or that. One unhappy person doesn't sum up the Saudi's armed forces in anyway, shape, or form. I usually put more into my post's then that I would take the word or the advise from people who serve there over the one guy I hardly knew. I just wanted to clear that up a little.

You are okay ROCK45, I do not think anyone recieved that type of impression from you.

 

[Cooch]

I think that you'll find that Saddam's reasoning for not coming south into SA relate to his own assessment of what he could get away with. At least for the time being.

I expect that he hoped to keep Kuwait and appears to have thought that if he restricted his invasion to just that country, and came up with a remotely plausible historical claim to the territory ..... a small country like Kuwait would not have had sufficient powerful allies who would find it politically expedient to turf him out again.
Continuing south into Saudi Arabia would have changed the whole political equation. The Saudis did have sufficient importance and allies to make it highly improbable - even in Saddam's judgement - that he would be permitted to remain there without a fight. So he took what he thought he'd be permitted to retain.
Had he continued south past the Kuwait border, what would he have achieved? His problem was that once he did provoke the allies of SA to military action, it would be highly unlikely that they'd be satisfied with merely ejecting him from SA, but would also liberate Kuwait. Granted that he knew that he wouldn't be able to keep SA, I suggest his best option would have been either an immediate or negotiated retreat back to the Kuwaiti border. He would have been able to degrade the ability of the Saudis to participate in any counter-attack, but he would also have suffered casualties and expended resources that he would expect to need in a defence of his territorial gains in Kuwait.

Regarding flanking attacks on the advancing allied columns... It's worth asking whether the Iraqi troops possessed the training or technology to operate in large-scale, mobile operations against an enemy who had the advantage of air cover. They may have caused more allied casualties, but it seems doubtful to me whether they would have achieved any significant alteration to the overall outcome.
Perhaps - if successful beyond reasonable expectation - if such attacs had disrupted the "left hook", it still would not have prevented the liberation of Kuwait. It would have permitted Saddam to withdraw more of his army intact, but it is questionable as to whether that would have made much difference in the long run.

Peter

 

[BRUTUS32]

This is my list of "what if" that may change the outcome of the Gulf War.

what if :-

1. Iraqi army made a surprise attack on US airbases and US rear.

The Iraqi Air force did not have the capabilities to launch a concentrated air offensive against US air installations. But if they did make a concentrated attack with the capabilities they possessed I would guess that the small US and Saudi air assets at the time would have been able to repel the attack. The Iraqis did have around 100 helicopters to use but they had no forces trained in air mobile operations and if they did attempt a air mobile operation I believe they would not have been able to air lift in enough troops or keep them adequately air supplied to cause a major disturbance. It also takes excellent coordination between army and air staffs to pull off a successful air mobile operation. Saddam never allowed his army commanders to train to that kind of proficiency. It would require him to allow them too much independence of action, I don’t believe he would ever allow that. Also American and Saudi CAP I think would have destroyed the majority of inbound and defiantly the resupply helicopters during the operation.

2. Iraqi army launched a surprised attack during several months of allied logistic preparation and special training.

This one has a slighter better chance of success. The standing Iraqi Army of the time was not efficient in division size offensive operations. Saddam created this structure on purpose so to ensure the standing army could not launch a successful coup of his government. If he launched it with two or three Republican Guard Divisions two weeks after taking Kuwait and went for broke I imagine they would be able to advance into the border defenses until the command and control and also the supply situation became untenable for them. If you remember in the Iraqi, Iran War the Iraqi's were fully mechanized fighting against more or less an infantry army and they were still incapable of launching any sustained offensives actions. In this situation they would be fighting another mechanized force backed up by American air power. Also there would be parts of the American Airborne Corp in country to set up blocking positions. I don’t think the Iraqi’s would have been overlay successful and it would have cost Saddam his most loyal troops.

3. Iraqi army launch harassing attack on allied flanks during their advance.

Unfortunately for them the by this time there command and control was almost none existent due to the sustained Allied air offensive. The ground offensive was so fluid and the Iraqi command structure so rigid they didn’t know where the Allies even were. But for argument sake lets say they did find out about the American Corp coming out of the Western Desert. The Iraqi had no mobile force west of the advancing American Corp so that would require an attack from the east, it would be suicide to attack the Corp as it turned that would mean you would be taking it on head on. The Iraqi’s would have had to have had good enough battle field intelligence to interpret the Americans intentions. If so it would have to be an all or nothing decision. The Iraqi’s would have had to launch a substantial portion of their mobile reserve south west and attempt to hit the Allies right at the hinge of the British Armored Division and the American Corp. If they advanced out from under the burning oil fields and hit them right at that point they might be able to make some headway and give the Americans a scare; at the minimum it would cause the Americans to pause but then in the end all that I think it would accomplish would be the total destruction of the Republican Guard. All this is fantasy the Iraqi’s had there mobile forces more or less in fixed positions there’s no way they could have got them out organized and been able to launch a sustained division sized maneuver as above.

4. Iraq possesed a Nuclear Deterence.

Now this one works for them. Correct diplomacy masked with the correct threats I think he could have held onto Kuwait. I do believe that the US would have responded with Troops as the Saudi Government requested to block any possible invasion of their country. I do not think though that we would have pushed an open offensive against the Iraqi’s. Saddam had shown in the past the ability to use WMD and I think if the Americans did strike and it was going as it historically did he would first threaten to strike and then if the Americans continued to advance and take all of Kuwait I think he was crazy enough to use them out of fear for his own survival.

Well this is my two cents to the questions and we all know what people say about opinions. This is my first and I have really enjoyed reading everyone else’s ideas; I look forward to reading more in the future.