Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[AGRA]

I would just like to solicit impressions on the possibility of the ADF purchasing the EC145 in the light helicopter role in the relatively near future.

EC145 is one of the two main competitors for the training helicopter part of the new ADF helicopter aircrew training system (HATS) project. It is competing with the AW109 and is very much in second place thanks to the AW109 having wheels (vs skids) being ordered by the RNZAF and in use by the RAN's Power Flight.

As for a light utility helicopter (LUH) a requirement exists for both navy, army and special operations command. However Government (ie the Minister and NSCC) haven't signed off on it yet. Until they do no money will be made available in forward budget plans so LUH can go into the DCP and progress to 1st Pass business case stage.

If LUH does get the funding nod then it will be either the same class of helo as E145/AW109 or the next size up. Because LUH will complement the MRH90 the need for a larger LUH in the scale of the AW139 isn’t that strong. Basically the dividing line will be at what point does it become inefficient to fly a MRH90 for the utility mission. Is it 12 passengers, 8 passengers or 6 passengers (or non human load equivalent)? CDG’s modeling seems to indicate the lower mark meaning a small LUH like EC145/AW109 would be right on the money.

 

[barra]

Taking the following article, posted in the Australian, as the back drop to the following input:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22951721-31477,00.html

Post 2010 will Australia have the capability to go it alone in their theatre of responsibility in Afghanistan when the Dutch leave? New Tiger helo’s (instead of Dutch Apache’s) and heavy armour in the form of M1A1’s bring much to the table. The only short-fall in the Aus tool-box being sef-propelled artillery (but then again the UK has managed, supported by its own 105 light-gun batteries and 81mm’s mortars in close support) and lack of CAS (Dutch F16 's will leave).

Can Aus go it alone?

I believe crunch time is rapidly approaching for the new Rudd Govt. to back up statements made in opposition with their own plan for the ADF's future combat commitments overseas.
As was pointed out in the articles in The Australian today, the former govt. has been extremely critical of other countries for not pulling their weight in Iraq and Afghanistan. This while our own commitment has been in niche areas and in the most part lacking some "teeth".(not trying to be critical of the ADF's efforts here just making the point that we haven't exactly extended ourselves either!) We have been relatively lucky so far with only a handfull of combat deaths, thankfully. By comparison Canada, being a similar sized country to Australia, have sustained far greater casualties and made much larger commitments of frontline troops over an extended period.
Personally, I believe the ADF's commitment will be increased in due time. The size and shape of that commitment remains to be seen. I can't see why a sizeable Battle Group of Infantry, SF, Armour, Artillery and Choppers (chinooks and tigers when ready) could not be deployed and sustained for a period. Also a det. of ~ 6 RAAF F/A-18's once HUG 2.2 reaches IOC should be maintainable.

 

[MARKMILES77]

I can read very little French but this French Defence News service article (20 December), seems to be saying that Australia has requested French help to rapidly train more Tiger pilots, so a rapid deployment can be made to Afghanistan!
First moves towards an increased committment to Afghanistan?
Well maybe not the first moves as there are other rumours, such as Australia is looking to buy ERA up-armour kits for the new M113AS4s!
Any French speakers who can confirm?
The English part of this website does not seem to have this article.

http://www.ttu.fr/francais/TTUonline.html

 

[t68]

I can read very little French but this French Defence News service article (20 December), seems to be saying that Australia has requested French help to rapidly train more Tiger pilots, so a rapid deployment can be made to Afghanistan!
First moves towards an increased committment to Afghanistan?
Well maybe not the first moves as there are other rumours, such as Australia is looking to buy ERA up-armour kits for the new M113AS4s!
Any French speakers who can confirm?
The English part of this website does not seem to have this article.

http://www.ttu.fr/francais/TTUonline.html

Hi markmiles77

I translated it for you from a site found that does (it here it goes)

On December 20th, both Australian pilots in training on the Tiger at the French school of Luke will be "Macaronés" and accept their certificate of aptitude on the helicopter of battle, punishing their for-ma-tion. Both pilots followed their training in France on the initiative of Canberra, which liked to dispose Tiger of pilots very fast and did not enjoy sufficient means on place. While the Australians have this day accepted nine helicopters Tiger on a total of 22 ordering, this wish of the authorities of Canberra lets predict a quick operational deployment. Before the Frenchmen (in EMAT, the topic of the Tiger in Afghanistan is not of actuality), Australian ALAT could so come to back up ISAF with an estrangement of Tiger in spring or in summer, 2008. Tiger, whose first deployment it will be on an outside theatre, will operate in the province of Uruzgan, in the south of Afghanistan, under the command of RCSouth (command Regional Sud).


Regards
Tom

 

[old faithful]

I have a feeling that australia,s involvement in Afghanistan will, if anything, see a larger engineer element,not fighter planes or tanks. I reckon we will see a reconstruction task force to a bigger level, with maybe a larger role for inf in so far as a protection force. Labour have a history of warm and fuzzy operations...building schools, hospitals,mosques childrens play grounds...that type of thing...then showing the TV channels what a postive thing we are doing there.

 

[winnyfield]

What exactly are the problems that you two see with Greg Combet serving in this role?

Tas

DMO has a budget of ~$9billion.

 

[Tasman]

DMO has a budget of ~$9billion.

Hence my argument that the organisation needs a shake up. I do accept, however, that there are reservations from some members (particularly it seems from those within the ADF) as to whether Greg Combet is the best person to oversee DMO. Time will tell.

Tas

 

[t68]

Greg Combet is the Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Procurement? Surely, this can't be good in the long run.

Hi Guys


Well I suppose it all depends on the advisors that he has around him and give him a number of choices and possible out comes with each area he is looking at, not just push what other people tell him.

I have never really liked the idea that people with limited knowledge of the portfolio that they are responsible for can have control over peoples lives when the have not got any feel for the real life experiences of people in there portfolio,
(E.g. Minster of defense military background
Minster for education has an education background etc)

But I think if you have the right people around you should in theory be all right, I just hope that they make the right decision and not put people’s lives at risk and not just look at the budget going into the red.

But we are going off topic here and talking about politics which is a no-no


Regards,
Tom

 

[AGRA]

I can read very little French but this French Defence News service article (20 December), seems to be saying that Australia has requested French help to rapidly train more Tiger pilots, so a rapid deployment can be made to Afghanistan!
First moves towards an increased committment to Afghanistan?
Well maybe not the first moves as there are other rumours, such as Australia is looking to buy ERA up-armour kits for the new M113AS4s!
Any French speakers who can confirm?
The English part of this website does not seem to have this article.

http://www.ttu.fr/francais/TTUonline.html

This isn't just directly related to the Ghan. But Tiger training is so far behind schedule and the contractor is not getting paid for it because they are so far behind that all stops are being pulled to acclerate training.

 

[BlessedFlower]

Quite an impressive feat, I must say.

It is not easy to remain ''cool, calm, and collected'' when you have been wounded...May God bless the major with more courage and strength.

 

[VGNTMH]

Composition of ADF Battle Group in Afghanistan

I believe crunch time is rapidly approaching for the new Rudd Govt. to back up statements made in opposition with their own plan for the ADF's future combat commitments overseas.
As was pointed out in the articles in The Australian today, the former govt. has been extremely critical of other countries for not pulling their weight in Iraq and Afghanistan. This while our own commitment has been in niche areas and in the most part lacking some "teeth".(not trying to be critical of the ADF's efforts here just making the point that we haven't exactly extended ourselves either!) We have been relatively lucky so far with only a handfull of combat deaths, thankfully. By comparison Canada, being a similar sized country to Australia, have sustained far greater casualties and made much larger commitments of frontline troops over an extended period.
Personally, I believe the ADF's commitment will be increased in due time. The size and shape of that commitment remains to be seen. I can't see why a sizeable Battle Group of Infantry, SF, Armour, Artillery and Choppers (chinooks and tigers when ready) could not be deployed and sustained for a period. Also a det. of ~ 6 RAAF F/A-18's once HUG 2.2 reaches IOC should be maintainable.

Comments on the composition of a “built up, Dutch replacement” ADF contribution to Afghanistan:

Infantry
One RAR battalion

Special Forces
SASR/4RAR contingent like current deployment

Army Helicopters
Chinooks (and possibly Blackhawks?) for transport
Tiger ARHs, very, very important, the 3 Para book on Afghanistan COIN in 2006 emphasized these, will these be ready?

Armour
Not M1A1s
Not M-113s
Bushmasters with RWS and ASLAVs would surely be ideal for convoy protection roles?

Combat Engineering
The 3 Para book emphasized the role of “pioneer” help for “digging in” in the semi static warfare in which they got bogged down in

Relief Engineering
Bridge building, trade training, “hearts and minds” operations

Artillery
Will Excalibur be ready for use with (Chinook mobile) 155mm towed guns?

Almost instantly available, relatively long ranged, precision guided artillery is surely the best fire support option? I know the Dutch used unguided 155mm SPGs and the British used unguided towed 105mm and Harriers for CAS, but the US has used precision guided artillery (GMLRS and Excalibur?) for COIN in Iraq.

SPGs wouldn’t necessarily be required surely?

UAVs
More persistent, more robust, ScanEagle would be perfect?

CRAM
Any chance of a rapidly acquired 20mm Phalanx or 35mm C-RAM system for base protection?

Heavier Crew Served Infantry Weapons
Does the ARA have enough 7.62mm GPMPs, 12.7mm HMGs, and 40mm AGLs for wider use in Afghanistan. The HMGs especially seem to be the weapon of choice for longer range, either vehicle mounted or semi static operations in Afghanistan.

Caribous
Can these operate at high altitude? Surely these would be perfect for getting many resupply convoys off the roads?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Comments on the composition of a “built up, Dutch replacement” ADF contribution to Afghanistan:

Infantry
One RAR battalion

Yep. No dramas.

Special Forces

SASR/4RAR contingent like current deployment.

Yep. No dramas.

Army Helicopters

Chinooks (and possibly Blackhawks?) for transport
Tiger ARHs, very, very important, the 3 Para book on Afghanistan COIN in 2006 emphasized these, will these be ready?

Chinooks. No dramas.

Blackhawks, provided they get an EWSP system, ballistic armour and upgraded door guns, no dramas.

Tigers. Not so sure. Tigers are unlikely to achieve even initial operational capability before 2009/10. Full operational capability seems unlikely before 2012.

I think ARH/gunship support would be needed from a friendly NATO ally...

Armour

Not M1A1s
Not M-113s
Bushmasters with RWS and ASLAVs would surely be ideal for convoy protection roles?

If we are replacing the Dutch, it means we need to have a force capable of "fighting" the Taliban head on.

Like the Canadians, I suspect our smallish contingent would be dependant on firepower to succesfully operate there. Therefore, why rule out M1A1 tanks and M113AS3/4 APC's?

ASLAV and Bushmaster will be there, performing the same role as now, but an expanded infantry presence will require a greater armoured vehicle commitment. The upgraded M113AS3/4's are almost perfect for this role, I'd suggest.

Combat Engineering

The 3 Para book emphasized the role of “pioneer” help for “digging in” in the semi static warfare in which they got bogged down in

Yes. This would be a given. Both Pioneers AND a combart engineering squadron would probably deploy.

Relief Engineering

Bridge building, trade training, “hearts and minds” operations.

Yep, as per previous, though a construction squadron could easily deploy as well.

Artillery

Will Excalibur be ready for use with (Chinook mobile) 155mm towed guns?

Almost instantly available, relatively long ranged, precision guided artillery is surely the best fire support option? I know the Dutch used unguided 155mm SPGs and the British used unguided towed 105mm and Harriers for CAS, but the US has used precision guided artillery (GMLRS and Excalibur?) for COIN in Iraq.

SPGs wouldn’t necessarily be required surely?

Yes, Excalibur would be integrated with the M198's by the time our force would be ready to deploy. So would SMART 155 if necessary.

UAVs

More persistent, more robust, ScanEagle would be perfect?

We already operate Scan Eagle in Iraq and Afghanistan. It would not be a major issue to continue this, I shouldn't imagine.

Our ordered I-VIEW TUAV's might be ready however...

CRAM

Any chance of a rapidly acquired 20mm Phalanx or 35mm C-RAM system for base protection?

Possibly. If required, though passive defences, weapons locating radar and "counter battery" fire support capabilities and good patrolling routines should provide enough protection, I should think.

Heavier Crew Served Infantry Weapons

Does the ARA have enough 7.62mm GPMPs, 12.7mm HMGs, and 40mm AGLs for wider use in Afghanistan. The HMGs especially seem to be the weapon of choice for longer range, either vehicle mounted or semi static operations in Afghanistan.

Plenty. I would suggest that the 40mm AGL's to be ordered under Land 40 Phase 2 would probably be processed as a prioritym but I'm sure they'd be available.

Caribous

Can these operate at high altitude? Surely these would be perfect for getting many resupply convoys off the roads?

Not sure they'd be necessary. They would be rather vulnerable to ground fire too, being as slow as they are.

Not sure the Para's had many Caribous in theatre though and they managed okay...

 

[barra]

Caribous
Can these operate at high altitude? Surely these would be perfect for getting many resupply convoys off the roads?

Caribous aren't pressurized so anytime they go above ~10,000ft the people down the back go for a little sleepy poo's. Only the pilots and loadies have an oxy supply. Also at the speed they fly it would take about a month to get there!!

Why no F/A-18s? With all the investment in HUG it is about time to let the flyboys play with all their new toys; JDAM's, L16 etc. The threat enviroment is fairly low for high flying aircraft, no enemy fighters or sophisticated SAM's so why wait until the new EW suite is fitted, the current one worked fine in Iraq. For mine RAAF fighters backing up our diggers on the ground is a must!!

 

[winnyfield]

[Artillery
Will Excalibur be ready for use with (Chinook mobile) 155mm towed guns?

Almost instantly available, relatively long ranged, precision guided artillery is surely the best fire support option? I know the Dutch used unguided 155mm SPGs and the British used unguided towed 105mm and Harriers for CAS, but the US has used precision guided artillery (GMLRS and Excalibur?) for COIN in Iraq.

Don't forget the Canadians. They've been using thier 155mm M777s (expedited purchase) with Excalibur in A'stan for a while now. Great thing about Excalibur is that it almost replaces a JDAM (Canadians don't have any combat aircraft in theatre).

Mortar carriers would be useful in A'stan. Mobile and high angled suited to mountainous terrain - primary US forces in A'stan are the 10th Mountain and their airborne units who have deployed with 120mm mortars.

Tigers. Not so sure. Tigers are unlikely to achieve even initial operational capability before 2009/10. Full operational capability seems unlikely before 2012.

At the moment they're (DoD and AA) aiming for a mid-2008 operational date, so it is possible. (It's about 2 years behind schedule)

Caribou

An aircraft the size of the Caribous would be perfect. However, the Caribous themselves are unsuited.

Biggest IF is what the US military plans to do in the next 5 years.
(Recent article about the US forces in eastern A'stan: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/01/afghanistan200801)

 

[Tasman]

Why no F/A-18s? With all the investment in HUG it is about time to let the flyboys play with all their new toys; JDAM's, L16 etc. The threat enviroment is fairly low for high flying aircraft, no enemy fighters or sophisticated SAM's so why wait until the new EW suite is fitted, the current one worked fine in Iraq. For mine RAAF fighters backing up our diggers on the ground is a must!!

I agree 100% about this. It would be good for the army to know that the RAAF is there to support them and I think it would be good for morale in the RAAF air combat force. Australian taxpayers have invested a lot of money in the air combat force and it would help counter criticism of this force ,levelled by some, that it is an expensive under utilised asset. I think it is vital that diggers know that all relevant assets in the ADF will be made available to support them.

Tas

 

[riksavage]

One assumes any Aus land assets will come complete with there own embedded 81 or 120mm mortars as part of the heavy weapons platoon? They have thus far proved indispensable to the Brits in providing rapid effective suppressive fire at close range and illumination at night. Even the veritable 51mms have been used to some success, again providing illumination during Taliban attacks against fixed positions at night. A single Royal Irish / 3-Para composite company fired more mortar rounds during their Helmand sojourn than was fired during the entire Falklands war!

 

[Aussie Digger]

One assumes any Aus land assets will come complete with there own embedded 81 or 120mm mortars as part of the heavy weapons platoon? They have thus far proved indispensable to the Brits in providing rapid effective suppressive fire at close range and illumination at night. Even the veritable 51mms have been used to some success, again providing illumination during Taliban attacks against fixed positions at night. A single Royal Irish / 3-Para composite company fired more mortar rounds during their Helmand sojourn than was fired during the entire Falklands war!

Yep. Army has 81mm mortars in-service which were upgraded with South African sourced 81mm mortar ammunition a couple of years back which improved their range and lethality.

Army has an 81mm mortar detachment in Afghanistan already...

At the moment they're (DoD and AA) aiming for a mid-2008 operational date, so it is possible. (It's about 2 years behind schedule)

IOC for the Tigers as I understand requires 12x Tigers delivered (at present DoD has only accepted 9x I believe) and sufficient trained crews to operate this many.

Thinking they'll achieve this in less than 6 months is a bit wishful IMHO...

Mid 2008 might be the goal, but the delays have come from France and Germany and thus has been out of our hands. This is why I doubt we'll see IOC before 2009, perhaps 2010 if any further delays occur.

 

[MARKMILES77]

........

The Australian


Army pilots earn stripes in France


Peter Wilson | January 11, 2008

THE growing role of Europe in Australian military planning has taken another step with the first two Australian pilots completing a French military training program on Eurocopter's new Tiger helicopter.

The training of Captain Paul Donaldson and Captain Hamish Felton-Taylor at a French-German base at Le Luc in southern France follows a string of victories for European arms makers in outgunning their US rivals for major Australian contracts.

The US remains unchallenged as Australia's main military ally but if the two Australian Army pilots at Le Luc had their way, more of their colleagues would find themselves working closely with the French.

"It has been an absolutely fantastic experience," said Captain Donaldson, 28, who will be based in one of the two planned Tiger squadrons in Darwin and may eventually find himself flying in Afghanistan alongside French NATO pilots.

"We have got on tremendously well with the French trainers and the aircraft itself is just awesome."

Other Australian Army pilots have had civilian-run training on the heavily armed reconnaissance helicopter, but Captain Donaldson and Captain Felton-Taylor, a flying instructor at Oakey in Queensland, lived in Provence for four months while going through the same military program as French and German pilots.

"It has been a little challenging because they are the first pilots we have ever trained entirely in English but we have all enjoyed the experience," said their main instructor, Captain Thierry Hartmann.

"They are both excellent pilots and they seemed to enjoy themselves so much that I don't think they had any trouble adjusting to living in France," Captain Hartmann added.

The Australians were invited to the European academy after expensive delays in training pilots for the Australian Army's new Tigers.

The past few months could have been harsher for Captain Felton-Taylor, who like Captain Donaldson has flown active operations in East Timor.

"I was in Melbourne doing a course and I got a call telling me I was going to Afghanistan for six months," he said. "Then I got another call saying 'No you're not, you're off to France for a few months'."

The Australian Government chose the Tiger over two US rivals, Boeing's Apache and Bell's Cobra, and so far has received nine of the 22 aircraft it ordered. Captain Felton-Taylor, 32, said it was "the most exciting aircraft" he had flown.

"The Tiger is replacing the Kiowas (Vietnam War-era US-made light observation helicopters) that we have always flown on reconnaissance and it changes the whole role of what we do," he said.

"The Kiowa was unarmed and did not have any sophisticated sensors. So it was hard to find targets in the first place, then if you did find one all you could do is tell somebody else about it.

"But the Tiger is a real military aircraft with its own firepower. We now have the ability to do something to the target ourselves."

Armed with a 30mm cannon, 70mm rockets and Hellfire II laser-guided air-ground missiles, the Tiger is packed with hi-tech systems.

 

[eckherl]

@AGR or Aussie Digger:

Do either of you know what type of fuel Australia is using in their new iron chariots, I am betting that it is diesel fuel.

 

[AGRA]

Yep, you're right diesel it is. Though the Abrams will be supported by our 8 tonne Macks with the aviation refuelling kit - because its the only offroad fueller in the Army with the capacity to support Abrams.