Australian Army Discussions and Updates

icelord

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
t68 said:
Hi Guys

Have been thinking of what we could replace the m113as3/4 with and found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expeditionary_Fighting_Vehicle

But unfortunately it does not apear to be available till 2015

I wonder what the guy in the mech battalions would think of it.


REGARDS
TOM
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No real need for the amphib capability of it, although the ASLAV has the ability to cross water some (or all) of the upgrades are moving the drive for the Amphib, as they no longer see the role of RAR as water based attack with LCH and LHD able to get them onto the beach already. The M113s don't have amphib and are not needed for such a role, but more terrain crossing in the Asia-pacific jungles that are encountered by Deployments. Note the first vehicles into East Timor to secure the city were M113s

The difference between marines and RAR...the RAR is an Army Regiment, the Marines are a Corps of the US Navy, although very expanded in that they provide their own ships, planes, helos, armour without the US Army. The USMC is also 'supposed' to be dedicated to invasions by the beach, then securing the area for the US Army to take over...but thats changed alot.
 
N

Navor86

Member
Concerning the demand to deploy A brigade sized Force in one Area and an Bn in another. Those whoe are in the know,does that mean 3 Infantry Bn in one Area and 1 in another. Or is an Aussie Brigade supposed to comprise two Infantry Bn+ mixed Bn of Abrams,ASLAV and Arty.
How many Bn would be needed to fullfill such an demand (Infantry) and does this possible mean an Increase of Armor Sqn (like a 4th Abrams Sqn and in each CAV Unit also a 4th Sqn?)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Navor86 said:
Concerning the demand to deploy A brigade sized Force in one Area and an Bn in another. Those whoe are in the know,does that mean 3 Infantry Bn in one Area and 1 in another. Or is an Aussie Brigade supposed to comprise two Infantry Bn+ mixed Bn of Abrams,ASLAV and Arty.
How many Bn would be needed to fullfill such an demand (Infantry) and does this possible mean an Increase of Armor Sqn (like a 4th Abrams Sqn and in each CAV Unit also a 4th Sqn?)
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Depends on the task at hand. The White Paper spelled out that Australia should be able to deploy a brigade sized force and a battalion group in different theatres simultaneously.

Australia however doesn't deploy brigades as a whole, with taskforces formed with a mix of capabilities to attend to the particular objective required.

I find it unlikely that 1,3 or 7 brigade would be deployed en masse anywhere, but a mix of units from these brigades? Most definitely.

In Timor during Interfet, 3x infantry battalions were required. In other ops, a single battalion has sufficed.

The number of battalions deployed will depend on the force required for the job, the forces available for deployment and how much the Government is prepared to invest in a particular operation...
 
S

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Navor86 said:
Concerning the demand to deploy A brigade sized Force in one Area and an Bn in another. Those whoe are in the know,does that mean 3 Infantry Bn in one Area and 1 in another. Or is an Aussie Brigade supposed to comprise two Infantry Bn+ mixed Bn of Abrams,ASLAV and Arty.
How many Bn would be needed to fullfill such an demand (Infantry) and does this possible mean an Increase of Armor Sqn (like a 4th Abrams Sqn and in each CAV Unit also a 4th Sqn?)
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Adding to what AD said, technically 1 Bde is an armoured brigade which will have two mechanised battalions (when 5 and 7RAR are both operational) and 1 Armd regiment as its third maneouvre element. 2 Cav's doctrinal role is recon, but now that they are packing ASLAVs a 2 Cav squadron has actually got rather heavier organic firepower than, say, an infantry company mounted in M113AS3/4s.

3 and 7 Bde are light infantry and motorised infantry brigades respectively, and should have three infantry battalions in each. 3 Bde has 1, 2 and 3RAR, and 7 Bde will have 6RAR, 8/9RAR and probably 25/49RQR. 9RQR used to be in 7 Bde but has been transferred to 11 Bde as part of 2 Div, to make way for the raising of 8/9RAR.

But as AD said, even though the organisation is there, it's unrealistic to think that they will deploy as a brigade any more, because the chance of meeting a large enemy force in the field is remote. But the brigade structure is still very handy for the training cycle - brigade commanders can hold brigade exercises (CATAs - Combined Arms Training Activities) and can have fun ordering their units around, and all the different corps can practice working together around an existing command structure (ie brigade headquarters).
 
A

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
25/49 RQR transferred to 11 Bde as well. Once HNA/ELF has raised all the new units filling out 7 Bde with ARA 11 Bde should also get the GRES elements of 1 Fd Regt (13, 41 Fd Btys, hopefully with a reformed RHQ and Op Supt Bty 5/11 Fd Regt) and 2 CER (joining 11 Bde’s 35 Cbt Engr Sqn for a full cbt engr regt) plus Sigs and CSS elements. 7 Bde has 2/14 LH (QMI) as its third manoeuvre unit.

The Australian Army is no longer an infantry as manoeuvre only units as it was in Vietnam. Under HNA/ELF the Army will have 11 combined arms battle groups (CABG) of a modular nature each with several combat teams based on 3 tank sqn (M1), 6 armd cav sqns (ASLAVs), 6 mech inf sqn (M113AS4) and 15 inf sqn (some with Bushmasters). Cbt Teams composition can be as varied as the SECDET made up of a infantry company CHQ, armd cav troop (ASLAVs), infantry platoon reinforced with a sniper section and a MP platoon.

If a Brigade is to deploy as a Joint Task Force – and they did in East Timor – then it will be made up of units it needs and that are on hand (i.e. high readiness). In the same modular nature as the CABGs and cbt teams. While it is important for the brigades in peacetime to be balanced formations for the complete collective training of all its elements they can be and are very flexible structures.
 
S

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
AGRA said:
25/49 RQR transferred to 11 Bde as well. Once HNA/ELF has raised all the new units filling out 7 Bde with ARA 11 Bde should also get the GRES elements of 1 Fd Regt (13, 41 Fd Btys, hopefully with a reformed RHQ and Op Supt Bty 5/11 Fd Regt) and 2 CER (joining 11 Bde’s 35 Cbt Engr Sqn for a full cbt engr regt) plus Sigs and CSS elements. 7 Bde has 2/14 LH (QMI) as its third manoeuvre unit.
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Has 2/14 been 'promoted' to a manouvre unit? I know it's all academic really because the battlegroup concept is taking over, but in published ORBATs neither 2 Cav nor 2/14 have been a manoeuvre unit but rather the brigade recon unit.

It's kind of contradictory that at the same time we're talking about brigades not being deployable, they manufacture 7 Bde into a fully ARA brigade, when the old structure would have worked just fine. I suppose it's not so much about the brigade structure but about the individual units becoming deployable. It'll be the final death knell for the integrated units I suppose - all future GRES support will have to come through the HRR companies - if they ever get properly off the ground.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I guess this photo answers a few questions about the Tiger's suitability for future Australian littoral operations...
 
N

Navor86

Member
Simon9 said:
Has 2/14 been 'promoted' to a manouvre unit? I know it's all academic really because the battlegroup concept is taking over, but in published ORBATs neither 2 Cav nor 2/14 have been a manoeuvre unit but rather the brigade recon unit.

It's kind of contradictory that at the same time we're talking about brigades not being deployable, they manufacture 7 Bde into a fully ARA brigade, when the old structure would have worked just fine. I suppose it's not so much about the brigade structure but about the individual units becoming deployable. It'll be the final death knell for the integrated units I suppose - all future GRES support will have to come through the HRR companies - if they ever get properly off the ground.
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Concerning a futher Increase of the Army under Rudd,it would be good to see each Brigade with 4 Manouvre Units. Which would mean:
1st Brigade: 1st Armored, 2nd Cav, 5th and 7th RAR+ other Bigade Units
3rd Brigade 1st, 2nd,3rd and NEW 8th RAR+Brigade assets
7Brigade 6th,9th and new 10th RAR,2/14 Light Horse+ Brigade Assets

This Sruture would mean that each Arty Brigade Bn would have 4 Arty Batteries to support one Manouvre Element
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
First Multi-Role helicopters accepted into service - 18 December

- Another milestone in Australia's aviation capability has been achieved with the first two of 46 Multi-Role helicopters (MRH 90) being accepting into service by the Defence Materiel Organisation at the Australian Aerospace facility in Brisbane today.


Acquired under Project AIR 9000, the MRH 90s will ultimately replace the Navy’s Sea King and Army’s Black Hawk fleets in the coming years.
"The MRH 90 will provide our sailors and soldiers with a new troop lift helicopter designed to meet the demands of modern combat operations over land and from ships at sea. The fleet will also provide valuable additional air mobile support for the wider Australian Defence Force," Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence Mr Greg Combet said.

Forty-two of the helicopters will be assembled in Australia, while the project will create more than 150 new jobs, mostly in South-East Queensland. The project also assures the continuation of more than 250 jobs that were coming to an end with the completion of other Defence projects.
The MRH 90, the first true fly-by-wire helicopter in the world, is equipped with a forward-looking infra-red system for flight in low light and has the same pilot helmet-mounted sight and display as used in the Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter. It has a larger cabin than the current troop lift aircraft and can lift greater loads and carry more troops than the helicopters it is replacing.


A period of test and evaluation, training and aircraft development will now be conducted leading to initial operational capability for Navy in 2010 and Army in 2011.



Some pretty pics are also available at:



http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2007/Dec/20071218b/index.htm



Nice to see Labors first "official" announcement...





Regards



AD
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
Aussie Digger said:
First Multi-Role helicopters accepted into service - 18 December

- Another milestone in Australia's aviation capability has been achieved with the first two of 46 Multi-Role helicopters (MRH 90) being accepting into service by the Defence Materiel Organisation at the Australian Aerospace facility in Brisbane today.


Acquired under Project AIR 9000, the MRH 90s will ultimately replace the Navy’s Sea King and Army’s Black Hawk fleets in the coming years.
"The MRH 90 will provide our sailors and soldiers with a new troop lift helicopter designed to meet the demands of modern combat operations over land and from ships at sea. The fleet will also provide valuable additional air mobile support for the wider Australian Defence Force," Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence Mr Greg Combet said.

Forty-two of the helicopters will be assembled in Australia, while the project will create more than 150 new jobs, mostly in South-East Queensland. The project also assures the continuation of more than 250 jobs that were coming to an end with the completion of other Defence projects.
The MRH 90, the first true fly-by-wire helicopter in the world, is equipped with a forward-looking infra-red system for flight in low light and has the same pilot helmet-mounted sight and display as used in the Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter. It has a larger cabin than the current troop lift aircraft and can lift greater loads and carry more troops than the helicopters it is replacing.


A period of test and evaluation, training and aircraft development will now be conducted leading to initial operational capability for Navy in 2010 and Army in 2011.

Some pretty pics are also available at:

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2007/Dec/20071218b/index.htm

Nice to see Labors first "official" announcement...

Regards

AD
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Nice cammo job, and good to see the Army also doing its bit for the environment, at least in spirit, by going 'green' :) So good to see they will no longer be promoting Qantas ;)
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
Army light aviation

I would just like to solicit impressions on the possibility of the ADF purchasing the EC145 in the light helicopter role in the relatively near future.

Thank you
 
icelord

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Tasman said:
What exactly are the problems that you two see with Greg Combet serving in this role?

Tas
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Hes experience with the ADF ranges from absoloute zero to -1. Hes there for political favour more then his application to the job.
The fear is he'd bend over backwards to ensure the procurement kept the Unions happy more then the ADF, meaning it may take an extra two years to complete a job, but as long as the workers were paid he would'nt care how long it took, forgetting the men and women on the ground who may need that equipment.

He is and will be the face behind the Union involvement in Labor.
I would rather see a member who has military Base in their electorate, unlike Combet, Puts a face to their decisions. Fitzgibbon(Defence Minister) does not have a base in his electorate but does have a large proportion of personnel living there, with Singo and Williamtown on either side. If he fails them they would let him know, he is the local member.

Mods(clearing a point here):rolleyes:
 
R

riksavage

Banned Member
Taking the following article, posted in the Australian, as the back drop to the following input:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22951721-31477,00.html

Post 2010 will Australia have the capability to go it alone in their theatre of responsibility in Afghanistan when the Dutch leave? New Tiger helo’s (instead of Dutch Apache’s) and heavy armour in the form of M1A1’s bring much to the table. The only short-fall in the Aus tool-box being sef-propelled artillery (but then again the UK has managed, supported by its own 105 light-gun batteries and 81mm’s mortars in close support) and lack of CAS (Dutch F16 's will leave).

Can Aus go it alone?
 
Tasman

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
icelord said:
Hes experience with the ADF ranges from absoloute zero to -1. Hes there for political favour more then his application to the job.
The fear is he'd bend over backwards to ensure the procurement kept the Unions happy more then the ADF, meaning it may take an extra two years to complete a job, but as long as the workers were paid he would'nt care how long it took, forgetting the men and women on the ground who may need that equipment.

He is and will be the face behind the Union involvement in Labor.
I would rather see a member who has military Base in their electorate, unlike Combet, Puts a face to their decisions. Fitzgibbon(Defence Minister) does not have a base in his electorate but does have a large proportion of personnel living there, with Singo and Williamtown on either side. If he fails them they would let him know, he is the local member.

Mods(clearing a point here):rolleyes:
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I hope you are wrong about what Combet's agenda will be (though you may well be right :( ). DMO needs someone to give it a good shake up in my opinion and I was hopeful that someone who has been successful in his job (as much as I personally dislike most of what that entailed) might be able to do so. I guess time will tell.

riksavage said:
Taking the following article, posted in the Australian, as the back drop to the following input:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22951721-31477,00.html

Post 2010 will Australia have the capability to go it alone in their theatre of responsibility in Afghanistan when the Dutch leave? New Tiger helo’s (instead of Dutch Apache’s) and heavy armour in the form of M1A1’s bring much to the table. The only short-fall in the Aus tool-box being sef-propelled artillery (but then again the UK has managed, supported by its own 105 light-gun batteries and 81mm’s mortars in close support) and lack of CAS (Dutch F16 's will leave).

Can Aus go it alone?
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By 2010 most of Australia's present commitment of combat units should be out of Iraq and good progress should have been made re the expansion of the army. IMO, it ought to be possible by then for the ADF to maintain a task force including a mechanised infantry bn supported by trooplift (Chinook and Blackhawk/MRH-90) and Tiger ARH's, cavalry and tanks, together with the present level of commitment of special forces and troops involved in reconstruction tasks. Hopefully the SP artillery might be fast tracked but if not then existing artillery assets could be deployed. A detachment of 6-8 RAAF Hornets would round out what would be a capable self contained force.

Tas
 
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