Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Today's Australian carried an article which outlines current government thinking re the next generation of RAN submarines:

Cameron Stewart | December 26, 2007
AUSTRALIA will build the world's most lethal conventional submarine fleet, capable of carrying long-range cruise missiles and futuristic midget-subs, to combat an expected arms race in the region.

New Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon has ordered planning to begin on the next generation of submarines to replace the Royal Australian Navy's Collins-class fleet with the aim of gaining "first pass" approval for the design phase from cabinet's National Security Committee in 2011.

The 17-year project will be the largest, longest and most expensive defence acquisition since Federation, potentially costing up to $25 billion.

It comes at a time when regional navies such as Indonesia's, China's and India's are seeking to drastically expand their submarine fleets, potentially altering the balance of naval power in the region.

"There is widespread agreement that submarines provide a vital military capability for Australia," Mr Fitzgibbon told The Australian.

"The development of new submarines requires long-term planning and needs to progress quickly, and that's what I have asked for."

Defence planners have examined two key studies this year - one by independent think tank the Kokoda Foundation - which have concluded that strategic shifts in the region will make submarines a more vital cog in Australia's defence than ever before.

Defence will study a wide range of futuristic options for the new submarines, which will be built in Adelaide and will replace the six Collins-class submarines when they are retired in 2025.

The new submarines will almost certainly be built by the builder of the Collins-class fleet, the Australian Submarine Corporation, once the government-owned ASC has been privatised.

"South Australia is the only credible location for the construction of Australia's next generation of submarine," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

The aim will be to create the world's most deadly conventional submarine fleet to allow Australia to maintain its strategic advantage over fast-growing rival navies in the region.

Although Defence has not yet ruled out the possibility of Australia acquiring nuclear-powered submarines, this option is considered highly unlikely on strategic, practical and political grounds.

Instead, defence planners will focus on producing a larger, quieter, faster and more deadly version of the existing six Collins-class submarines, which, after a troubled birth in the 1990s, have proved to be one of the country's most important defence assets.

It is not known how many of the new submarines will be built.

Defence has confirmed that one of the options to be considered for the new submarine fleet will be small unmanned mini-subs that can be launched from the "mother" submarines.

"Technological developments such as unmanned vehicles would probably offer complementary capabilities to any future underwater warfare platform," a Defence spokesman said.

These unmanned mini-submarines, crammed with high-tech sensors, could travel remotely tens of kilometres away from the mother vessel to conduct surveillance, detect enemy submarines or carry an SAS team.

Another priority for the new submarines will be the new generation air-independent propulsion systems, which allow conventional submarines to stay underwater for longer periods, greatly increasing operational effectiveness. Defence says the new post-Collins submarines will have more flexible designs, allowing them to be quickly reconfigured for different types of missions, from intelligence gathering to strategic strikes.

The new submarines will be able to carry a greater variety of long-range weapons, possibly including long-range cruise missiles as well as short-range tactical land-strike missiles. They will also be configured to facilitate the secret transporting of SAS squads into regional hot spots.

In a study earlier this year, the Kokoda Foundation estimated that building, arming and supporting a new, fully modernised submarine fleet could cost between $20 billion and $25 billion, making it the largest defence project in Australia, dwarfing even the $15 billion Joint Strike Fighter project.

The Government hopes to complete its initial research into the options for the new submarines by 2011, when cabinet will give "first pass" consideration to the plan.

In 2014-15, the Government is due to give "second pass" consideration to the project, resulting in contracts and the eventual construction of the submarines, with sea trials tentatively scheduled for 2024.

The submarine-replacement project will be included in the next Defence Capability Plan.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22971955-31477,00.html

I notice that Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon specifically stated that they will be conventionally powered.

Tas
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Hi Guys

I know this would be classified info but what would be the quieter boat in your opinion,
The nuclear or the aip designed boat.

Reading information from different sites no one has actually said witch is quieter.
I am only looking at noise from a power plant while underwater and in sensitive/transit area type area scenarios

There seems to be a lot of chatter from the government about getting started for the future sub on the news today (might be a slow news day for the networks)

Regards,
Tom
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Guys

I know this would be classified info but what would be the quieter boat in your opinion,
The nuclear or the aip designed boat.

Reading information from different sites no one has actually said witch is quieter.
I am only looking at noise from a power plant while underwater and in sensitive/transit area type area scenarios
Back in the 80's your nuke boats had cooling pumps which made them noisier than conventional boats under electric power. Electric motors slowed down to maintain bare steerageway were almost silent. However, catch a conventional boat snorting at the surface and they are in a spot of bother and making a fair bit of noise.

These days, with natural circulation being developed for nuclear power plants, and quieter machinery all round, it'd be a whole new ballgame. Current models of AIP is as-yet untested for the most part with respect to how quiet it is in the hull; and it always depends on what type. Unfortunately, you are quite correct - no-one would really know who is quieter except for the submarine community itself, and they don't talk much. :)
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
How many submarines?

The following article appeared in today's Australian:

Associate editor Cameron Stewart | December 29, 2007
AN unusual defence brief landed on the desk of Labor's Joel Fitzgibbon last July, when he was the Opposition spokesman for defence.

It was written not by Australian Defence Force chiefs but by the Submarine Institute of Australia, a body comprising some of the country's most decorated former submarine commanders.
The brief was on the future of the submarine fleet and it did not mince words. It began: "To retain an effective undersea warfare capability, planning needs to begin NOW on a future submarine."

A naval arms race in the region was gathering pace and Australia could not afford to be left behind, the submariners warned. "Significant investment is under way by regional nations to acquire or improve their submarine capability," they wrote.

"Modern western European technologies are being fielded in many of these capabilities. Both India and China are also acquiring European and Russian submarine technology of considerable sophistication. The emergence of regional powers armed with nuclear-powered submarines, and submarines with a strategic strike capability, are likely," the report said.

"In short, more countries will seek to practice underwater denial."

This last point was highlighted dramatically in September when Russian leader Vladimir Putin dropped into Jakarta en route to the APEC leaders summit in Australia and announced that Russia would sell two advanced Russian Kilo-class submarines to Indonesia, with hopes of selling eight more in the years ahead.

Fitzgibbon has emerged as Defence Minister in the Rudd Government and this week he took his first major decision: to start the planning process for the next generation of submarines to replace the navy's Collins-class fleet when it is retired in 2025.

The landmark move is a recognition of two key realities. The first is that the traditional maritime balance of power in our region is fast changing, with Australia's advantage being threatened by rapidly expanding navies across the region. The second reality is that the process of building the next generation of Royal Australian Navy submarines will be long, expensive and inevitably painful. Unless serious planning for this futuristic fleet begins now, there is little or no chance the new submarines will be ready to sail by 2025, when the six Collins-class boats will be obsolete.

"A lot of work needs to be done and they cannot afford to muck around," says Ross Babbage, chairman of the security think tank the Kokoda Foundation, which published a detailed report in April on future submarine requirements.

Fitzgibbon's decision has been welcomed by defence experts and also by the Coalition Opposition, which would have done the same thing if it had been returned to power.

The fact that there has not been a single dissenting voice for what will be the longest and most expensive defence project since Federation shows how far the defence debate has moved from the days when experts questioned the need for an indigenous submarine fleet. The success of the Collins-class boats and an increasingly uncertain strategic outlook have led to a bipartisan conviction that Australia cannot afford to lose its submarine capability.

"The bottom line is that no one these days seriously argues that we don't need a new generation of submarines after the Collins class are gone," says Neil James, executive director of the Australia Defence Association.

In fact, experts say Australia's need for submarines has never been greater.

"By 2025 there will be over 150 modern submarines in the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean regions, not counting those of our American allies and our own," says Peter Briggs, a former submarine commander and now president of the Submarine Institute of Australia.

Former Labor defence minister and Opposition leader Kim Beazley says Australia needs to consider doubling the present fleet in order to match the expansion in rival submarine capability in the region.

"I think we need to have up to 12 submarines because of the numbers of submarines being developed elsewhere," he tells Inquirer. Beazley also says more submarines are needed to counter a "glaring weakness" in Australia's anti-submarine warfare capabilities at a time when the navy will be producing "the best submarine targets in the region" with its new air warfare destroyers and amphibious landing ships.

In a study released this year, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute warned that the availability of off-the-shelf submarines from Russia and other countries had dramatically shortened the time it took for rival countries to develop a submarine capability.

"Sophisticated Russian and western European submarines are proliferating into the region, with Bangladesh, China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore and South Korea all acquiring or planning to acquire modern conventional boats," the institute said. "The rising major powers of China and India are working to develop indigenous nuclear submarines in conjunction with acquiring sophisticated conventional submarines and weapons from abroad. China in particular has markedly increased the size and capability of its fleet over the last decade and continues to build on that progress.

"The upshot is that Australia will soon face a region that has a much greater capability to conduct submarine operations. In a contingency, submarines will be able to seriously threaten the operation of surface fleets and commercial trade."

But what capabilities will the next generation of Australian submarines need to counter such threats?

"We are talking about a much more complicated and demanding environment than we had when we were designing the Collins-class boats," says Babbage.

The Kokoda study estimates that the total cost of building a fully modernised next-generation submarine fleet in Adelaide could cost an unprecedented $25 billion. These figures are daunting for any government, much less one already saddled with a $15billion project to replace its frontline fighter jets and an $8 billion purchase of three air warfare destroyers. Not to mention the $6billion spent this year by the former defence minister, Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson, on F/A-18 Super Hornets, a purchase widely viewed as being driven by politics -- fear of criticism over a time gap between the obsolescence of our F-111s and the new fighters -- rather than strategic need.

With a new defence white paper due to be completed late next year, the submarine replacement project will be viewed with suspicion by rival services in the ADF. Some in the air force may fear the expensive new submarines will undermine their pitch for large numbers of Joint Strike Fighters, with a decision on the Lockheed JSF project due late next year. The army may feel it will compromise its push for more infantry. Even some elements of the navy are wary of submarines, fearing that they will suck up its allotment of resources, which might otherwise be channelled into surface ships.

If these disputes do arise, submarine advocates will be disadvantaged because there is no longer a submarine operations office in Canberra since it was relocated to the fleet base in Western Australia in 2000. This means that during the policy arm-wrestles that will take place in Canberra next year ahead of the defence white paper, there will no senior submariner at the table to argue their case.

But Fitzgibbon is a believer in the need for a strong submarine arm and is likely to be a staunch defender of the project.

"This project will need every bit of ministerial attention because it hasn't got the same public focus as the Joint Strike Fighter and air warfare destroyer projects have," says Beazley. "Generally speaking, the submarine fleet has been driven by politicians since the days of Alfred Deakin, who was the father of Australian submarines, acquiring two of them against the advice of his British advisers."

Fitzgibbon has promised that the new submarines will be built in Adelaide and, while he has not said so, the new boats will almost certainly be built by Collins-class maker the Australian Submarine Corporation.

The minister wants the design phase of the project to gain first-pass approval from cabinet's national security committee in 2011.

At this stage the Defence Department is keeping all options open for the new submarines, including the small possibility that the new boats will be nuclear-powered rather than diesel-powered like the Collins class.

Nuclear submarines would offer some strategic advantages over conventional submarines. They are much faster and can stay underwater indefinitely, allowing them to shadow deep ocean convoys around the clock.

However, the Collins do not shadow convoys like their US counterparts do. Instead, they spend much of their time close to shore, gathering intelligence: a task for which speed is largely irrelevant.

Conventional submarines such as the Collins are also quieter than their nuclear counterparts, making them better suited to shallow-water, close-shore operations.

They are also significantly cheaper to build at about one-third of the cost of a nuclear-powered boat. This cost factor, plus the fact that Australia does not have a nuclear industrial infrastructure to support a nuclear fleet, is likely to lead Defence to rule out a nuclear submarine early in its deliberations.

The Government will be anxious to avoid a repeat of the substantial problems that plagued the Collins-class boats in their early years when they were too noisy, leaky and had a faulty combat system.

Despite these problems, Labor says the new submarines will once again be built in Australia and will not be purchased ready-made off the shelf from another country.

Because no other country makes the type of conventional boats Australia wants, the new submarines will be a new class -- known in defence circles as an "orphan class" -- in the same way as the Collins.

Briggs believes lessons have been learned from the Collins experience that will help avert a repeat of such problems. Rather than try to reinvent the wheel, he says the Government should "evolve and migrate the Collins combat and ship control systems into the new submarine".

The Collins fleet, despite its troubled birth, has evolved to become one of the country's most important and most unheralded defence assets. It has had setbacks, most notably the near-loss of HMAS Dechaineux in 2003 when a burst seawater hose at deep diving depth came within 20 seconds of sinking the boat and its 55 crew.

That accident continues to limit the depth at which the Collins fleet can operate, diminishing its effectiveness.

But in war games with allies and in intelligence-gathering operations, the fleet has performed strongly.

Defence wants its new submarines to form the most lethal conventional fleet in the world, with the new boats being larger, faster and quieter than the Collins and with a greater array of firepower.

It is expected that the new boats will be capable of carrying long-range cruise missiles as well as short-range tactical land-strike missiles.

They are also likely to have minisubs attached to them that can travel remotely many kilometres from the mother submarine to search for enemy ships, gather intelligence or transport an SAS team.

The boats will also utilise the new generation of air-independent propulsion systems that allow the submarines to stay underwater longer, greatly increasing their operational effectiveness.

Early big-picture decisions on all these capabilities will need to be made in less than four years, before the 2011 cabinet deadline.

In 2014-15, the Government will be expected to give second-pass consideration to the project, resulting in contracts and the eventual construction of the submarines, with sea trials to begin in about 2022.

It sounds like a long time away, but the complexities of designing and building a new Australian submarine fleet which can maintain an edge over its regional rivals are daunting. "A great deal will need to happen quickly," says Babbage. And the clock has already started ticking.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22981343-31477,00.html

The navy has long advocated a desire for eight submarines which would enable at least a couple to be based at Fleet Base East.

Personally I think Beazley is over the top when he suggests a fleet of 12 as the cost to purchase and operate them would put huge pressure on the naval budget (and the ADF budget as a whole), perhaps to the detriment of other priorities, and it would be difficult to man them. I expect that the next generation will also be far more capable than the submarines they will replace, with force multipliers like unmanned mini subs. Easing manning difficulties is the fact that they will (probably/hopefully) require a smaller crew and feature improved accommodation. The new submarines are also a long way off so there is plenty of time for the navy to plan for their adequate manning.

I would personally like to see the navy plan on a fleet of eight unless studies clearly demonstrate that less are required. What do other members think?

As a side note I was a bit bemused by Beazley's comments about the AWDs and LHDs being "the best submarine targets in the region". The AWDs will have a significant ASW capability and the LHDs will be able to deploy ASW helos if required.

Tas
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The navy has long advocated a desire for eight submarines which would enable at least a couple to be based at Fleet Base East.

Personally I think Beazley is over the top when he suggests a fleet of 12 as the cost to purchase and operate them would put huge pressure on the naval budget (and the ADF budget as a whole), perhaps to the detriment of other priorities, and it would be difficult to man them. I expect that the next generation will also be far more capable than the submarines they will replace, with force multipliers like unmanned mini subs. Easing manning difficulties is the fact that they will (probably/hopefully) require a smaller crew and feature improved accommodation. The new submarines are also a long way off so there is plenty of time for the navy to plan for their adequate manning.

I would personally like to see the navy plan on a fleet of eight unless studies clearly demonstrate that less are required. What do other members think?

As a side note I was a bit bemused by Beazley's comments about the AWDs and LHDs being "the best submarine targets in the region". The AWDs will have a significant ASW capability and the LHDs will be able to deploy ASW helos if required.

Tas
At least it's a nice change from the usual: RAAF - corruption/incompetence, rubbish that these fools usually sprout.

I think Australia will be well served by 8 highly capable Submarines, but then I'm always up for MORE capability...

I'd like to see the Collins class finish it's upgrades and be manned properly before we start proposing a larger more capable fleet though...
 

rossfrb_1

Member
The following article appeared in today's Australian:



The navy has long advocated a desire for eight submarines which would enable at least a couple to be based at Fleet Base East.

Personally I think Beazley is over the top when he suggests a fleet of 12 as the cost to purchase and operate them would put huge pressure on the naval budget {snip}

Tas
I wonder if it may be a ploy, plug for twelve and then go "shucks, OK I guess eight will have to do instead.." ;)
WRT to the son of Collins project, it's good to see that the PR has started already. The voting public probably need a long lead in time for such an expensive project to become palatable.
rb
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder if it may be a ploy, plug for twelve and then go "shucks, OK I guess eight will have to do instead.." ;)
WRT to the son of Collins project, it's good to see that the PR has started already. The voting public probably need a long lead in time for such an expensive project to become palatable.
rb
PR for the new submarines may not be a huge problem as the project seems to have bipartisan support, at least at this stage. The important thing will be to maintain that support.

WRT numbers, 12 has not been put forward , AFAIK, by the navy or anywhere else from within the ADF, just by 'Bomber' Beazley, the former Defence Minister and Opposition Leader. The navy is hard pressed to man its present submarines and whether the replacement program is for 6, 8, or any other figure, the manning issue will have to be solved. As I said before, there is plenty of time to do this, but an urgent start needs to be made now. Perhaps the best way to prepare for the introduction of the new fleet would be to find ways to get the present six submarine force fully manned.

Tas
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
A comment made in another forum suggested that the basing of all of the RAN's submarines at Fleet Base West is a major disincentive so far as the recruitment and retention of submariners is concerned. I would be interested in comments from serving RAN members (AMTP10E, etc) about this.

I can see the strategic and economical benefits of basing the whole force at FBW but if it would aid recruitment and retention would it not be worth the additional costs associated with basing half the force on the East Coast? It seems to me that the extra cost of running a second base may be worth every dollar if it helps in getting the force properly manned. In a crisis the submarines could still be deployed to the west.

Tas
 
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McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A comment made in another forum suggested that the basing of all of the RAN's submarines at Fleet Base West is a major disincentive so far as the recruitment and retention of submariners is concerned. I would be interested in comments from serving RAN members (AMTP10E, etc) about this.

I can see the strategic and economical benefits of basing the whole force at FBW but if it would aid recruitment and retention would it not be worth the additional costs associated with basing half the force on the East Coast? It seems to me that the extra cost of running a second base may be worth every dollar if it helps in getting the force properly manned. In an crisis the submarines could still be deployed to the west.

Tas
Very true.

It isn't a bad idea to have some eggs in a different basket in any case, but basing half our subs at FBE would certainly attract another type of manpower. Some people just don't like living near Fremantle, and prefer their families to be in Sydney somewhere. You can put that in the bank, as I had drinks with three fellow Seamanship Officers recently, and while they weren't anxious to get into subs, the fact they were based at FBW is what stopped two of them.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
FFG upgrade - reported deficiencies

ABC radio news is leading with the story that the FFG upgrade has some problems. Namely that the anti missile and anti torpedo systems can't be integrated and that the electronic warfare systems "are a joke".
Soundbites from an interview with Defmin Fitzgibbon have him blaming the previous government. His take seems to be that trying to upgrade the FFG wasn't such a good idea in the first place - ala Seasprite I guess. My memory of Labor's stance on the FFG upgrade project when they were in opposition is hazy.
All this apparently from a whistleblower - there haven't been any rumblings about this that I am aware of. I wonder if anyone else will come forward with more information, or is all this due to a disgruntled employee with an axe to grind?
Could get interesting, especially if any of the mainstream broadsheets run with this as well.
here's something I just found
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22995196-5001021,00.html?from=mostpop
"..AUSTRALIA'S naval defence is in tatters with claims that despite a $1.4 billion "upgrade", frontline fighting ships are unable to be sent into battle.
For the first time a navy insider close to the 4000-tonne Adelaide class guided missile frigates upgrade project has provided details of one of the biggest defence scandals in the nation's history.

The whistleblower told The Daily Telegraph that the situation is so dire that sailors are quitting the navy because their ships can not be deployed to the Middle East or other conflict zones.

And senior officials now admit that the 1997 frigate upgrade project was a "debacle" created by the Howard government's decision to maximise the sale price of the Sydney-based contractor Australian Defence Industries when it was sold to French firm Thales.

The project is four years late, includes four ships - not the original six as commissioned - and they just don't work.

Late last year Chief of Navy Vice-Admiral Russ Shalders refused to accept HMAS Sydney, the first ship in the program, for "operational release" because its war fighting systems did not function properly.

The whistleblower said the ships' anti-missile and anti-torpedo systems could not be integrated and their electronic support measures - the ship's eyes and ears for detecting incoming airborne threats - were a joke.

"That means they would be going into a war zone virtually blind," the informant said.

In addition the ships are unable to link their helicopters to war fighting data or use long-range chaff which confuses enemy missiles and takes them away from the ship.

The ships are also unable to integrate towed and on-board sonars to detect enemy torpedoes.

Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said the FFG upgrade was "another nightmare" that Labor had inherited and would have to manage as best as it could.

According to government auditors up to 98 per cent of the money has already been paid to Thales despite the fact the project is four years late and not one ship is operational.



The latest defence debacle follows a growing list of projects either incomplete or seriously over-budget.

Do you know more about this story or problems within Defence? Email us at [email protected]

The most infamous was the Collins submarines, which were noisy, leaked, had engine trouble and their combat systems did not work. More recently, the Super Seasprite helicopter has joined the stuff-up roll of honour.

Another hi-tech project with a $500 million blow-out tag is the Jindalee Over the Horizon Radar network. The project also ran four years behind schedule."


rb
 
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enghave

New Member
You're making a few assumptions about build capability - that seems to me that you've swallowed the media spin on the ills of the Collins program ...
Well I was very pleased to hear Peter Briggs of SIA at a Trafalgar Day speech say the Collins class were going well, and the more I learn about the navy the less I'm taking media stories at face value.
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
ABC radio news is leading with the story that the FFG upgrade has some problems. Namely that the anti missile and anti torpedo systems can't be integrated and that the electronic warfare systems "are a joke".
Soundbites from an interview with Defmin Fitzgibbon have him blaming the previous government. His take seems to be that trying to upgrade the FFG wasn't such a good idea in the first place - ala Seasprite I guess. My memory of Labor's stance on the FFG upgrade project when they were in opposition is hazy.
All this apparently from a whistleblower - there haven't been any rumblings about this that I am aware of. I wonder if anyone else will come forward with more information, or is all this due to a disgruntled employee with an axe to grind?
Could get interesting, especially if any of the mainstream broadsheets run with this as well.

rb
There have certainly been problems with the upgrade and we have discussed the program earlier in the thread (e.g. Post 550 and 563). It seems to me that the whistleblower is drawing attention to delays and problems that have been known and reported for some time. I would be concerned if the problems were still unresolved during Sydney's recent deployment to North America. My understanding from reading press releases was that at least the ESSM firing was successful.

With the benefit of hindsight it does make the decision to upgrade the FFGs and reject the offer of the USN Kidd class as replacements for the DDG's look like a major mistake.

Perhaps someone like AGRA, McTaff, AMTP10E, Alexsa, etc may be able to answer whether the problems raised have now been resolved in the first two ships to go through the upgrade (Sydney and Melbourne).

If not a question that needs to be answered is how much more money should we be prepared to spend to get it right.

Tas
 

cobber

New Member
The Fifth Column Forum

Can somebody please give me the link to the new Fifth Column Forum.
Thanks Cobber
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Perhaps someone like AGRA, McTaff, AMTP10E, Alexsa, etc may be able to answer whether the problems raised have now been resolved in the first two ships to go through the upgrade (Sydney and Melbourne).

If not a question that needs to be answered is how much more money should we be prepared to spend to get it right.

Tas
It seems from comments made by Defence Minister Fitzgibbon, in the Australian on Jan 2, that the problems have not yet been solved in any of the ships.


THE sorry state of Australia's front-line guided missile frigates was just another example of the former Howard government's incompetence on national security, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said today.

The navy's front-line fighting ships cannot defend themselves and are unable to be sent into battle despite a $1.4 billion upgrade, News Limited has reported.

The program to upgrade the 4000-tonne Adelaide Class guided missile frigates is running four years late and sailors are reportedly quitting the service as they cannot be sent into any conflict zones.

"I have very serious concerns and this is just one of a number of projects which we are now learning in government are going to be a real problem for the new government," Mr Fitzgibbon told ABC radio today.

"But we're determined to work sensibly through them and deliver the navy and indeed all the services the level of capability they need or require to adequately defend the nation."

It was not the only "nightmare" project Labor had inherited from the coalition, Mr Fitzgibbon said.

"The former Howard government managed to portray itself as a government very confident in the area of national security but unfortunately we are learning in the very early days of government that the reality is something very, very much different."

Mr Fitzgibbon said he did not know whether there were many sailors quitting the service due to the slow progress.

"I am aware there is a very, very high level of concern amongst the people who crew these vessels including those who are in the most senior ranks ... I'm not sure about quitting.

"I'd be very reluctant to talk in those terms but I am conscious of very, very high levels of concern."

The new government will now try to speed up the process but Mr Fitzgibbon said he simply did not know how that was going to be achieved.

"We're trying to assess this project now and trying to determine the level of the problem - it's very very complex of course but we are just now determined to get on with the job and to deliver to the navy the capability it requires," he said.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22997255-31477,00.html

However, I can't see that the RAN now has any acceptable option other than to keep pushing ahead with the project in an attempt to at least get them to a reasonable operational state where they are capable of being deployed. Fitzgibbon virtually said as much in his comments.

Failing to do so could result in the FFGs having to be relegated to low level roles until they are replaced by the F-100s. This would put a huge workload on the Anzacs, which, ironically, were designed for tier two duties whilst the FFG's dealt with tier one situations! Now it seems that the roles may have to be reversed.

Tas
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #957
I loved the add on tag regarding Collins, they just love that word when dishing it out to the Navy

Every time whistle blower comes up its someone with an Axe to grind and hard, hell walk down any corridor on any base and you'll find the internal number for Whistleblowers line, theres a problem use that, if that don't work, Four corners is good for your Axe swining...:rolleyes:
I would not be surprised if Seasprite reared its head again soon, without realising thats its staying put whether Rudd or Fitz likes it. $1.4 Billion can't all be blamed on Howard when they still need a new Helo to replace it.

Quitting because your not being sent to war seems a far stretch, although i can understand the frustration(and i'm not even there yet) it seems a little over the top. You quit for a variety of reasons,not just non-deployment. Most of the sailors on HMAS Sydney i've spoken too love it, and love the FFG over the FFH. Most recommendations i've been given by leaders and POs is for an FFG, and most have experience on both. For all the bad talk they are very much loved by Sailors, so this seems a beat up, but hey the media would never do that.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #958
Navy cost sinking budget Font Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print Mark Dodd | January 07, 2008
THE navy should consider downsizing its fleet as the multi-billion-dollar cost of keeping pace with military advances takes its toll on the Defence budget, a senior analyst has warned.

Taxpayers will have to stump up an extra $2billion for the privilege of having three air warfare destroyers built in Australia -- an expense that raises questions about the future requirements of the navy's fleet.

The Rudd Government needed to move smartly and prioritise the navy's future needs because serious affordability questions were hanging over proposed warship purchases, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute's Mark Thompson said at the weekend.

One option was to follow the lead of the British and US navies which, faced with ballooning procurement costs, had opted for smaller fleets.

"The question that's plagued navies for time immemorial has been getting their technology mix right," he said.

Delays affecting a $1.4billion frigate upgrade meant it was doubtful future funding would be available to replace RAN warships on a one-for-one basis indefinitely.

More than six years delayed, the frigate upgrade fiasco -- classed by Labor as a nightmare contract inherited from the Howard government -- underlined the importance of a new defence White Paper, Dr Thompson said.

Last week, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon ordered planning to begin on building the next generation of submarines -- at $25 billion, the biggest defence acquisition in Australia's history.

But Dr Thompson warned the 17-year sub-building program might prove too expensive.

"Before you presume that submarines will be built in Australia, you have to work out how big the premium is," he said.

"The premium for the air warfare destroyers by my reckoning is at least $2 billion for the privilege of building them in South Australia."

The cost of adding a fourth destroyer still under consideration by the Government would be about $1.5 billion.

South Australia, keen to promote itself as a defence industry hub, estimates the destroyer project will inject more than $100million into the local economy and create 1000 direct and more than 2000 indirect jobs.

But Dr Thompson suggested the Defence Department had its priorities wrong, and should concentrate Australian shipbuilding efforts on areas where there was local expertise while adapting to new technologies.

"Notwithstanding having a cutting-edge commercial fast-ferry business here in Australia, with Austal and Incat, we're dragging our feet, still building large grey vessels that the navy was first building last century," he said.

The navy's four FFG-class frigates have still not achieved "operational release" after an upgrade and are not expected to be declared fit for service until the end of next year.

The FFGs are not deployed to the Middle East, unlike the Anzac class, although one of the FFG class, HMAS Melbourne, is on patrol off the Top End.

:mad :mad :mad
Thats all i'm going to say right now
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Wouldn't the extra cost of building the AWD's locally be offset by the employment of Aussies rather than building them in Spain?
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Once again we see a so called expert who claims to know more about what the navy needs than the navy itself.

What exactly is Dr Thompson advocating? He seems to be suggesting a smaller navy equipped mainly with with smaller ships (Austal/Incat types) and also casts doubt over whether any sophisticated ships, such as frigates, destroyers and submarines should be built in Australia.

Sure there is a premium to be paid for constructing warships (or any military equipment for that matter) in Australia and it would usually be cheaper to buy off the shelf from overseas. However, the hard lessons of WW2 (1942 in particular) demonstrate the case for as much self reliance as possible in Australia's defence industry.

Tas
 
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