The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[alexsa]

I take it your referring to this quote from Naval technology

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvf/

"The MOD has decided not to use nuclear propulsion because of high cost, and several alternative configurations have been considered for the propulsion system, including a 25MW WR21 gas turbine, as used on the Type 45 frigate, and a podded propulsion system based on Integrated Full Electric Propulsion (IFEP).

A configuration currently being considered is based on two Rolls Royce Marine Trent 36MW MT30 gas turbine alternators driving two electric motors. The motors power fixed conventional propeller shafts.

CVF will have two bronze propellers, each 6.7m in diameter and weighing 33t. The anchors will be 3.1m in height and weigh 13t."


I personally believe that they'll use the conventional electric drive motors & shafts, powered by generators fed from the the WR21's.


With such a large & complex design, these decisions will have no doubt already been made, as the earlier such decisions are made, the easier it is to plan construction & order the parts.

The idea of putting in even short shaft lines from the electric motors to the propellers, only to have then ripped out in "X" years time, to be replaced by pods is farcical! No shipbuilder in their right mind would consider this as a viable option.

It's either, Or, not both. The structure that would be needed to be put in place on the deck plates of the outer hull to support pods, just doesn't make it practical to fit shaft lines as well.

Correct, either option must be selected before construction and the underpinnings will determine the structural arrangement of the after part (if not more) of the vessel. Sorry, the idea of fitting shafts and then going to pods does not match with reality.

These lessons will already have been learned from the huge commercial cruise ships that have been plying the global oceans for the last 10 - 15 years, since pods where introduced.

The use of the WR21's also would, yet again, be a sound, practical choice. With Type 45 already using them & getting good results, it would be foolish to switch to another semi-unproven system, purely for the continuity / spares factor, never mind the maintenance & operational differences.

Also, while gas turbines have been used elsewhere in the RN fleet, to great effect, they tend to be fuel hungry & have the additional drawback of only being able to run on cleaner, refined fuel oils, unlike most commercial diesels, which have been updated / adapted to run on everything from rough crude oil, to LPG !


Systems Adict

The MT30 can operate as a combined cycle unti incorpoating a free powr turbine for the priamry alternator and and waste hea boiler for a secondary steam turbine alternator. This has a claimed effeicney of 50%. The problem is the system runs best at it desing load. The ships hotel and service laod will be variable but where speed is not an issue these variations can be absored by the propulsion system. for a warship where constant speed is critical the variation in load is most likley to be addresse with the deisel alternators.

By the way for the power required the only HFO option you have is stroke slow speed desiels. The size and mass of these and their operating characteristics (slow acceleration. slow decelerations and not very forgiving if 'throw around') make them completley impractical for this type of vessel (or many passenger ships for that matter). The Gas turbine - electric drive option permist flexiblity in desing becasue the location of generation system is not driven by the positionof the propulsion drive line.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/downloads/article/id6_fuelling_future.pdf

While the MT30 is a purpose built marine turbine the WR21 is a modified aero trubine but still incorporates the combine cycle (regenerative) technology and has an advantage of the order of 27% over simple cycle turbines. Added to this is the the fact the Trent, on which it is based, is a modern core and is more efficnet in that the older generation aero turbines in any case.

http://marine.rolls-royce.com/WR-21-marine-gas-turbine-engines/

Simply cycle is the arrangement used ships such as the FFG7 where the power of the turbine is harness by a free power turbine only.

For an electic ship with space an weight issues both are a good option.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Jane's reports that a tender for up to six new tankers has been issued by the MoD.

Jane's report

It's subscription only so I can't read it, but still it's good news.

 

[harryriedl]

Jane's reports that a tender for up to six new tankers has been issued by the MoD.

Jane's report

It's subscription only so I can't read it, but still it's good news.

sounds like the start of the MARS program i guess its for the small fleet tankers [the gold leaf, rover class i think] rather than the larger vessels as they are newer.

 

[contedicavour]

Has anything concrete emerged so far on replacements for Type 22 batch 3 and the Type 23s transferred to Chile ?

cheers

 

[WillS]

sounds like the start of the MARS program i guess its for the small fleet tankers [the gold leaf, rover class i think] rather than the larger vessels as they are newer.

Quite a bit bigger than the Rovers I think, the tender document is publically available at:

www.publictenders.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=32381

(I can't make this damned address work! Just go to www.publictenders.net and search for 2007/S 239-291103)

That doc seems to indicate a ship of Wave class size (220m maximum length against the Wave's 197m) with Phalanx, Helicopter capable with an 800million budget to buy between 3 and 6.

This seems to match a MARS Fleet Tanker presentation I came across (in PDF format) here.

WillS

 

[Systems Adict]

WillS,

Had a look at the site & your PDF. I can concur with your thoughts in that it's the start of the MARS project, & looks like replacements for the older single hulled "Rover" class tankers, which will soon be out with MARPOL regs.

There is a bit of a push on to get these ships up onto the blocks & produced ASAP, so that they can take the older ships out of service for Maritime safety reasons (namely pollution, if there was to be an accident if the hull was pierced).

Looking at the PDF it's apparent that they are looking for vessels similar to the Wave class oilers, but the design requires twin screws via diesels, whereas the Waves where electric drive through a single shaft, via diesels.

If I were looking for a "sure bet company to invest in", my money would be on Wartsillia, as I have a feeling that it will be them who'll supply the diesels.


Systems Adict

 

[Systems Adict]

Has anything concrete emerged so far on replacements for Type 22 batch 3 and the Type 23s transferred to Chile ?

I have the feeling that due to RN personnel numbers & budget restraints that these vessels won't be replaced, they'l just soldier on with what they have.

Until decisions are made about the FSC (Future Surface Combatant), & whether they are gonna follow the 3C plan/variants, or go with a standard type vessel. That & how they are gonna pay for them...

Systems Adict

 

[Sea Toby]

Quite a bit bigger than the Rovers I think, the tender document is publically available at:

www.publictenders.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=32381

(I can't make this damned address work! Just go to www.publictenders.net and search for 2007/S 239-291103)

That doc seems to indicate a ship of Wave class size (220m maximum length against the Wave's 197m) with Phalanx, Helicopter capable with an 800million budget to buy between 3 and 6.

This seems to match a MARS Fleet Tanker presentation I came across (in PDF format) here.

WillS

I wouldn't expect a frigate replacement program until after the destroyer and carrier program is finished. The Duke class of frigates recently finished, with the start up of the destroyer program. When its completed I expect new frigate and submarine programs. Keep in mind the Type 23 Batch 3 program finished during the late 1980s, these ships are only 20 years old and still have some life left in them. What bothers me is selling them off when they reach their mid-life point of their lives.

 

[Systems Adict]

I wouldn't expect a frigate replacement program until after the destroyer and carrier program is finished. The Duke class of frigates recently finished, with the start up of the destroyer program. When its completed I expect new frigate and submarine programs. Keep in mind the Type 23 Batch 3 program finished during the late 1980s, these ships are only 20 years old and still have some life left in them. What bothers me is selling them off when they reach their mid-life point of their lives.

I could wax lyrically on the subject of the sale of these vessels, but feel that the comments made on the link below say enough....


http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/articles/2007/11/warships-going-cheap-flogging-off.html


Systems Adict

 

[Tasman]

I could wax lyrically on the subject of the sale of these vessels, but feel that the comments made on the link below say enough....


http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/articles/2007/11/warships-going-cheap-flogging-off.html


Systems Adict

The attached article certainly makes sad reading!


Tas

 

[Systems Adict]

...What is sad is not the content of the article, but the fact UK Govt didn't attempt to do anything about it over the last 10 years.

However, I 110% agree with the choices that were made (the selling off of material). The comments made at the end of the article seem to corroborate those I've heard in various discussions I've had in my day to day job over the last 5 years.

I appreciate that if UK MoD had spent the funds to maintain the x3 T23's they sold off, and funded repairs to the rest of the fleet, there could well have been no budget to support operations on the GWOT (Iraq/Afghanistan), or build the Type 45's.

Systems Adict

 

[harryriedl]

I have the feeling that due to RN personnel numbers & budget restraints that these vessels won't be replaced, they'l just soldier on with what they have.

Until decisions are made about the FSC (Future Surface Combatant), & whether they are gonna follow the 3C plan/variants, or go with a standard type vessel. That & how they are gonna pay for them...

Systems Adict

the last of the T23 arrived in 1998 so i would have thought construction 2020+ would be good so the carriers and destroyers programs finished[like you said] but along with the frigert program there should be LPH(R) program the replacement or sister of Ocean should be running in the same time frame.

any idea how long MARS will run

 

[spsun100001]

Has anything concrete emerged so far on replacements for Type 22 batch 3 and the Type 23s transferred to Chile ?

cheers

I guess there are four scenarios here until the FSC starts building.

Scenario 1 - Optimistic: We build 8 Type 45's and keep in service the 4 Type 22's and 13 Type 23's for an escort force of 25.

Scenario 2 - Middle ground top end: We build 6 Type 45's and keep the Type 22's and Type 23's in service for an escort force of 23

Scenario 3 - Middle ground bottom end: We build 8 Type 45's and retire the Type 22's for an escort force of 21.

Scenario 4 - Pessimistic: We build 6 Type 45's and retire the Type 22's for an escort force of 19.

Take your pick which one it is. I find it depressing that a couple of years back I'd have found the optimistic scenario to be pessimistic!

The longer the government keeps committing UK forces to operations beyond their planning and funding constraints whilst increasing the defence budget by less than the rate of defence RPI, being locked into legacy procurement programmes such as Typhoon and dodging the issue of whether the replacement for the nuclear deterrent will come out of the defence budget then the more likely the pessimistic scenario might become.

Steve

 

[Sea Toby]

There is going to be a shortage of escorts when the government proposes a 12 ship class of destroyers and builds six. Already there is a shortage of six destroyers. On top of a building shortage, there is going to be a shortage of escorts when the government sells off frigates at their mid-life point of a frigates' life. All but the Batch 3 versions of the Type 22's have been sold off at their mid-life point of their proposed thirty years of service. When you don't build six of a new class and sell off 8 of the oldest class and 2 of the newer class which have recently been built, you are going to find the fleet 16 ships short. Its simple mathematics. Some peace dividend.

 

[swerve]

I've been looking at some of the current OPV(H) designs, & wondering whether any would be suitable as an off the shelf C3. Thoughts, gentlemen?

BAM (in Spanish, but anyone can understand the technical specs) -
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/ and click on Unidades del Futuro, then Buque de Accion Maritima. Impossibly long URL otherwise . . .

The somewhat larger new Dutch patrol vessels -
http://warships1discussionboards.yu...ATROL-VESSELS-FOR-ROYAL-NETHERLANDS-NAVY.html

A variant of HMS Clyde -
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.00h00100100800c007002
Pity about the hangar

The VT OPCV concept, based on their Omani vessels -
http://free4.janes.com/events/exhib...ns/daily/day1/vt-unveils-new-fsc-concep.shtml

 

[TimmyC]

I've been looking at some of the current OPV(H) designs, & wondering whether any would be suitable as an off the shelf C3. Thoughts, gentlemen?

BAM (in Spanish, but anyone can understand the technical specs) -
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/ and click on Unidades del Futuro, then Buque de Accion Maritima. Impossibly long URL otherwise . . .

The somewhat larger new Dutch patrol vessels -
http://warships1discussionboards.yu...ATROL-VESSELS-FOR-ROYAL-NETHERLANDS-NAVY.html

A variant of HMS Clyde -
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.00h00100100800c007002
Pity about the hangar

The VT OPCV concept, based on their Omani vessels -
http://free4.janes.com/events/exhib...ns/daily/day1/vt-unveils-new-fsc-concep.shtml

They all look reasonable contenders for the C3, except the Dutch OPV, with a stonking displacement of 3,750 t and large crew seems a bit OTT in size for an OPV, especially in terms of capability returned for investment.
Guess the real contender will be the one the RN can afford, such as VT's method of leasing. The service already seems to have taken a liking to this, rather than paying a huge slice of your budget in one go.
Does the Spanish BAM design include a model fitted for mine sonar?

 

[contedicavour]

There is going to be a shortage of escorts when the government proposes a 12 ship class of destroyers and builds six. Already there is a shortage of six destroyers. On top of a building shortage, there is going to be a shortage of escorts when the government sells off frigates at their mid-life point of a frigates' life. All but the Batch 3 versions of the Type 22's have been sold off at their mid-life point of their proposed thirty years of service. When you don't build six of a new class and sell off 8 of the oldest class and 2 of the newer class which have recently been built, you are going to find the fleet 16 ships short. Its simple mathematics. Some peace dividend.

How weird to have sold off the first 3 Type 23 : it didn't bring significant money, it crushed chances of new build frigates being built for Chile (even if most would have been built there), it blew a hole in RN numbers just when FSC has been delayed until God knows when...

At least there is no more gossip around selling some of the 0+6+(2) Type 45s to Saudi (I'm using Jane's way of writing operational+under construction+planned)

cheers

 

[Systems Adict]

There is going to be a shortage of escorts when the government proposes a 12 ship class of destroyers and builds six. Already there is a shortage of six destroyers. On top of a building shortage, there is going to be a shortage of escorts when the government sells off frigates at their mid-life point of a frigates' life. All but the Batch 3 versions of the Type 22's have been sold off at their mid-life point of their proposed thirty years of service. When you don't build six of a new class and sell off 8 of the oldest class and 2 of the newer class which have recently been built, you are going to find the fleet 16 ships short. Its simple mathematics. Some peace dividend.

Sorry, it's late & I've not checked, but I've used this reply before, to some similar statements...

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/articles/2007/11/warships-going-cheap-flogging-off.html


If you look at the comments at the bottom of the article, they seem to offer some sense of a possible explanation as to why they were sold off when they were.

 

[Sea Toby]

I believe you will find out the frigates were nearing their mid-life refits, and the government simply didn't want to pay any more for the ships that were around 15 years in age. The government would prefer to sell them off and use the savings to buy something newer with newer technology. Many of the nations of Latin America are looking to replace their obsolete ships with something newer and cheaper than buying either newer frigates or OPVs. I do not see an end to this trend. Do you?

The British, French, and Italians have been doing this for a while, its not surprising to see the Dutch follow.

 

[TimmyC]

How weird to have sold off the first 3 Type 23 : it didn't bring significant money, it crushed chances of new build frigates being built for Chile (even if most would have been built there), it blew a hole in RN numbers just when FSC has been delayed until God knows when...

cheers

Like said on the previous post annoying they never lasted their in service lives with the RN but they were likely sold due to a looming mid-life refit.

The cheque for the sale would have at least remained with the MOD so not insignificant.

I don't believe Chile were going to order new build frigates of such quality from anywhere, although I suspect they must have been scrambling for their pen to sign the documents when such quality ships came on the market.

Yes, it certainly did blow a hole in the RN's surface combatants.

Like other nations the UK's naval assets are more likely to be used in conjunction with other countries assets to form a combined task force. Single nation task forces are few and far between.
Although the RN is of the few that retains dedicated specialist warfare ships, I certainly expect this to continue in line with the strategic defence review even if the FSC is more multi-mission depending on it's configuration.
A 50 year CV program insists upon FSC.

As for European Security and Defence Policy(ESDP) the argument for Security Sector Reform(SSR) and Private Security Companies(PSC) has perhaps never been so strong to help reduce duplication in the EU, and EU navies; although individual views will of course contrast vividly depending on your stance to the UK/EU.