The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

perfectgeneral

New Member
Appeal to brits on the board

My petition to the Prime Minister to increase defence spending back up to 3% of GDP closes on 18 February 2008. It could still use a few clicks and ticks.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/DefenceAt3pcGDP/

My new petition to the PM is to order at least ten type 45 destroyers and to concider twelve, as originally intended.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Want10Destroyers/

Thanks for supporting your country's armed forces and through them your country.
 
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Jambo_100

New Member
My petition to the Prime Minister to increase defence spending back up to 3% of GDP closes on 18 February 2008. It could still use a few clicks and ticks.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/DefenceAt3pcGDP/

My new petition to the PM is to order at least ten type 45 destroyers and to concider twelve, as originally intended.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Want10Destroyers/

Thanks for supporting your country's armed forces and through them your country.
cheers for this, its great, if a large enough number of people sign up it should happen. After all this is a democracy and the nation is run ''by the people for the people''
 

spsun100001

New Member
cheers for this, its great, if a large enough number of people sign up it should happen. After all this is a democracy and the nation is run ''by the people for the people''

It's actually run by people who want to get elected on behalf of people whose only interest is buying cheap stuff in Tesco. A subtly different shade of democracy.....:D
 

Jambo_100

New Member
It's actually run by people who want to get elected on behalf of people whose only interest is buying cheap stuff in Tesco. A subtly different shade of democracy.....:D
haha yeh good point. Why did u say tesco, was it because of that chicken program on TV the other night by any chance? :)

but on a more serious note, check out some of the other petitions on that site, some even have replies from the PM himself! there is a 'save our navy' one from last year and Tony Blair replied to it :unknown
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Delay with new carriers?

Can our UK members comment re the credibility of the attached story and, if true, its implications for the RN:
U.K. May Delay Carrier 18 Months

By ANDREW CHUTER

LONDON — British defense officials are considering delaying the Royal Navy’s 3.9 billion pound ($7.7 billion) program to build two aircraft carriers for up to 18 months or longer to help plug a yawning hole in the defense budget.
Partners in the BAE Systems-led alliance set up to deliver the 65,000-ton carrier have been asked to look at ways of adjusting the spending profile on the program to help overcome cash shortages at the MoD over the next three years.
Britain is cooperating with France to design the carriers, which will be the Royal Navy’s largest warships ever.
“One option being considered is continuing the design work but delaying cutting metal by 12 months. Another is to freeze the program entirely for 18 months,” said one industry source.
The former would just be tenable, but the latter would likely kill the program, the source said.
Another source said the program could be delayed by as much as five years.
Some executives here wondered whether the government is seriously considering delaying the program, or if it was just an option to be considered, then ruled out.
The carrier is among the programs being reviewed by the Ministry of Defence as it attempts to iron out the peaks in its budget over the next two or three years by altering spending plans rather than abandoning or heavily delaying projects.
The carrier alliance, which also includes Babcock, Thales UK and the VT Group, is expected to respond within days to the MoD request with proposals for keeping the program in place while easing pressure on the budget.
“Changing spending profiles on defense programs happens all the time,” said one industry executive. “The alliance could choose to do a number of things like push equipment procurement to the right and delay supplier payments to change the spending profile on the program. It would certainly be a preferred option to a delay which eventually costs everybody money.”
Threat to Proposed Merger
A substantial delay in the program would throw into doubt an agreed merger of Britain’s only two remaining naval surface ship builders.
BAE Systems and the VT Group initialed a tie-up of their respective yards on the Clyde in Scotland and at Portsmouth in Southern England last summer. Completing the deal is contingent on a Terms of Business Agreement (ToBA) with the government, which sets out a 15-year partnering arrangement. The carrier is the centerpiece of a defined workload to be undertaken by the merged operation throughout the duration of the agreement.
A spokesman for the MoD said the two sides were now “finalizing the last few details of the ToBA.”
The spokesman was unable to comment in time for this article.
The alliance, which has the MoD as a partner, has agreed to terms for undertaking the construction program but the deal remains unsigned.
Under current plans, the first of the carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth, is to enter service in 2014; the second vessel, HMS Prince of Wales, two years later. The original in-service date for the first carrier was 2012.
Cutting the first metal on the program is expected to take place around the end of this year. The warships will be built in large blocks at yards around the United Kingdom before being floated to the Babcock yard at Rosyth for final assembly.
Alliance leader BAE declined to comment.
“Any issue concerning budgets is a matter for the MoD, it would be inappropriate for us to comment,” he said.
Broad Spending Cuts
The move comes as the defense sector here is bracing itself for spending reductions of about 1.5 billion pounds a year for at least the next three years as the MoD attempts to balance its books.
Government spending plans for defense over the next three years were rolled out in July. The figures showed a planned 1.5 percent a year average increase in real terms, taking spending up to 36.9 billion pounds in 2010/11.
That’s not enough to stave off a squeeze on the military and industry.
Ministry officials and the armed services have for months been battling, sometimes among themselves, to agree exactly where the ax will fall to achieve the required cuts as part of a process known as Planning Round 08.
That process is reaching its climax ahead of the financial year 2008-09, which gets underway in April.
Wherever the ax falls, controversy is likely to follow. For that reason the government, currently unpopular and under constant fire for what many say is its failure to properly fund a military heavily engaged for years now on overseas operations, may want to limit major program cuts and head off more criticism.
Finding the required level of cuts is proving a tough task. Part of the reason for that, say government insiders, is that the MoD’s room for maneuver has been limited by a political commitment in July to go ahead with three large defense programs.
On the day it rolled out its spending plans in July, the government signaled its intention to proceed with renewal of the nuclear deterrent, a British Army armored vehicle program known as the Future Rapid Effects System, and the aircraft carriers.
“Contractually, we haven’t committed ourselves to these three programs but politically we have. If you add that to programs which are already under contract with industry, the amount left in the middle to cut is not that large,” said a government source.
In a heated debate in the House of Lords late last year over the future of the armed forces, Adm. Lord Boyce, a recent chief of the Defence Staff, said the MoD was putting “blood on the floor” as it slashed defense programs.
He said he was particularly concerned about the future of a Royal Navy that had already suffered numerous cuts to its frigate and destroyer numbers and faced the possible prospect of still more reductions in fleet numbers.
The two carriers are likely to initially operate with GR9 Harrier strike aircraft currently deployed on the small 21,000-ton Invincible class carriers, but are expected later in the decade to switch to the short take-off and vertically landing version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. å
E-mail: [email protected].
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3299815&C=europe

I would find it very disappointing if there is a major delay. However, delaying the program is just one of the options apparently being considered to curtail spending and with the current world economic uncertainty, the UK is not alone in looking at ways of reducing government expenditure.

Tas
 

windscorpion

New Member
It's actually run by people who want to get elected on behalf of people whose only interest is buying cheap stuff in Tesco. A subtly different shade of democracy.....:D
The key thing is to get across to people that a strong navy will help ensure they can keep buying cheap stuff in Tescos...
 

WillS

Member
Can our UK members comment re the credibility of the attached story and, if true, its implications for the RN:

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3299815&C=europe

I would find it very disappointing if there is a major delay. However, delaying the program is just one of the options apparently being considered to curtail spending and with the current world economic uncertainty, the UK is not alone in looking at ways of reducing government expenditure.

Tas
Politically this looks like a very risky move considering how much the govt has invested in the defence industrial strategy and the location of the jobs attached to this order (Scottish constituencies, including Brown's own).

However we always see a lot of stories like this in the run-up to the spending round and I wonder if this is the Navy getting in their concerns in a budget battle with the RAF (who might lose Tranche 3 of the eurofigthers) and the Army (with the FRES program). One of the three big programmes has to be delayed or cut - my vote would be to ditch the third eurofighter tranche - and the RN might simply be making their case, in conjunction with the shipbuilding industry, first.

One of the most distasteful things about this govts attitude to defence spending (and the last govt to be honest) is this playing off of one service against another. Encouraging in-fighting between services that need to work together. However it pans out, its a sad, sad, story.

WillS.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Can our UK members comment re the credibility of the attached story and, if true, its implications for the RN:

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3299815&C=europe

I would find it very disappointing if there is a major delay. However, delaying the program is just one of the options apparently being considered to curtail spending and with the current world economic uncertainty, the UK is not alone in looking at ways of reducing government expenditure.

Tas
I pretty sure that this is just another storm in a teacup as these kind of stories seem to be a near certain thing [the story originated from the FT thinking that it might be delayed nothing concrete its politically untenable to cut anything with a aggressive press and the Tories[and the lib dems] berating the gov on defense.

where would this be thread without these constant stories :p:
 

Padfoot

New Member
Navy carrier to go ahead, says MoD


The Ministry of Defence has insisted two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers will go ahead as planned.

Reports on Friday morning suggested the department was considering delays to the £3.9bn contract to meet Treasury demands for cuts to its budget.

The Financial Times said officials could delay the project by up to 18 months to stagger the cost of the carriers, announced by defence secretary Des Browne last July.

The MoD confirmed there had been a "slight delay" while the joint venture between BAE Systems and VT Group was established as a legal entity.

But a spokesman denied the project would be held up, saying: "The programme is going ahead and there is no delay to the existing schedule.

"The comprehensive spending review does allow us to proceed with this."
 

contedicavour

New Member
At this stage of the programme nobody can foresee what delays might happen... but anyway what matters is that the CVs are going to be built fullstop.
By the way in France Sarkozy hasn't made up his mind yet of how to reshuffle the defence budget to ensure the new CV gets built. He must still be doing his maths with the defence minister to try and get as many FREMMs in together with Barracuda SSN and the new CV...

cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Navy carrier to go ahead, says MoD


The Ministry of Defence has insisted two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers will go ahead as planned.

Reports on Friday morning suggested the department was considering delays to the £3.9bn contract to meet Treasury demands for cuts to its budget.

The Financial Times said officials could delay the project by up to 18 months to stagger the cost of the carriers, announced by defence secretary Des Browne last July.

The MoD confirmed there had been a "slight delay" while the joint venture between BAE Systems and VT Group was established as a legal entity.

But a spokesman denied the project would be held up, saying: "The programme is going ahead and there is no delay to the existing schedule.

"The comprehensive spending review does allow us to proceed with this."
As contedicavour suggests it is always possible that there will be unforseen delays but it is pleasing to at least see a positive announcement from MoD, confirming that the programme is still on schedule.

Tas
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Politically this looks like a very risky move considering how much the govt has invested in the defence industrial strategy and the location of the jobs attached to this order (Scottish constituencies, including Brown's own).

However we always see a lot of stories like this in the run-up to the spending round and I wonder if this is the Navy getting in their concerns in a budget battle with the RAF (who might lose Tranche 3 of the eurofigthers) and the Army (with the FRES program). One of the three big programmes has to be delayed or cut - my vote would be to ditch the third eurofighter tranche - and the RN might simply be making their case, in conjunction with the shipbuilding industry, first.

One of the most distasteful things about this govts attitude to defence spending (and the last govt to be honest) is this playing off of one service against another. Encouraging in-fighting between services that need to work together. However it pans out, its a sad, sad, story.

WillS.


Gonna play devils advocate on this....



ANY decision on delaying the carrier build programme is a double edged sword, but I reckon, as others have stated elsewhere in this thread, that delays will be the norm.



However, it could well be a GOOD THING if this is the case. Let me expand further...


Between now & 2015 the UK shipbuilding Industry has to (beside building the 2 carriers)...


Complete, test & hand over all 6 T 45's,
Complete, test & hand over 3 "OPV's" for Trinidad & Tobago,
Complete, test & handover 3 vessels for the Omani Navy(??),
Complete & handover 2 vessels for the RMN (Assuming the contract gets signed this year),
Complete the design & start Phase 1 of construction of the MARS project.(if not Complete, test & hand over !!)

In addition, they have to...

Scope the workload / build strategy for Phase 2 / 3 of MARS(& probably commence build too),
Look at & agree with the RN the way ahead for FSC.



That my friends is no mean feat ! :eek2


But in addition, they have to deal with...

The 2012 Olympics, & the constraints that will put on the engineering skills base of people available (Namely - Qualified & skilled people who have shipbuilding experience, who will leave the Industry to chase the "Golden Dollar"),

The on-going renewal program to repair / replace public sector buildings such as schools & hospitals (again, drawing bodies from the skills base),

The Commonwealth games that are going to be held in Glasgow / Scotland in 2014 (yet more resource demand!),

Numerous Construction programmes to improve infrastructure to support the events listed above, as well as ongoing upgrade to our motorways / railways & airports,

The ongoing construction boom to provide enough domestic homes for the population.

...& Finally,

The announcement that we're gonna build 4 more Nuclear power stations over the next 10 years !


Not to put to fine a point on it, there simply are not enough qualified people within the engineering sector in the UK, with relevant experience, to support the contracts that are currently in build, never mind the ones that are planned to commence 3 years down the line !

So...

Is the UK Govt being so foolish as to suggest that there might be 18 months delay on the contract ???

I personally think that it would benefit the country & the economy If they programmed the build that way, with nearer 36 months delay, using a staggered build programme (taking longer to build the 2 ships, while still building them at the same time, so that they both entered service within 12 months of each other).

After all, the thing that's really gonna mess this all up is not the govt or the constructors, but the UK Birth rate 20 years ago & the lack of direction in the education system!

Reduced numbers of children, matched to the ever expanding choices available for those leaving school, added to the "I wanna be famous / on TV / rich & Idle" mentality of the 90's & 00's generations, mean that although figures are on the increase, there are fewer children in the UK who have any interest in getting their hands dirty, working as an engineer for a living !!

As one of the few, I think it's either going to get messy, as per the industrial actions of the 70's & 80's or I'm going to get richer, will trying to stop Mr Tom/Dick & Harry from the office environment, retraining to become a plumber / electrictian / steelworker / engineer...


Your thoughts, please.


Systems Addict :dbanana
 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
my vote would be to ditch the third eurofighter tranche
By doing that you save hardly any money and lose all of the planes. The cost penalties mean it's almost completely pointless in backing out unless you want to see most of the billions go down the drain. The best option to avoid paying for Trache 3 now would be to defer payment/pay gradually.

FRES is probably the best option as there's no commitment there. Reduce the numbers ordered at the start and build in options to get more later. If there's concern over spending more in the long-run due to a smaller order followed by another one, agree on a price structure if the options are exercised but pay what would be the cost for just the first order. Then the manufacturers won't be short-changed, and if the UK wants more, it can get them at a reduced price as it will have already placed a "deposit" for them by paying as if the first batch was a one-off order.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I wasn't aware that penalties would already be in place for batch 3 that technically hasn't been approved yet ? MODs need to sign for it before any commitment is definitive and subject to penalties if the contract is broken. At least, that is my understanding.

cheers
 

Alpha Epsilon

New Member
The MoD, as have the other partners, have signed the so called umbrella contract in the 1990s, this includes heavy penalties if the MoD does not get all it's 232 Typhoons, it has been suggested that cancelling Tranche 3 saves only a fraction of the Tranche 3 cost, due to penalties.
 

spsun100001

New Member
The MoD, as have the other partners, have signed the so called umbrella contract in the 1990s, this includes heavy penalties if the MoD does not get all it's 232 Typhoons, it has been suggested that cancelling Tranche 3 saves only a fraction of the Tranche 3 cost, due to penalties.
Yeah, that's my understanding as well. The intention being that one partner nation couldn't pull out leaving the others with a higher unit cost. If I understand correctly though, those arrangements can be changed with the agreement of all four partner nations (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that point).

If that's right I'd like to see our strategy as being:

1) Seek cancellation - other partner nations have similar pressures on defence budgets so might be keen to cencel or reduce their own commitment to tranche 3, or...

2) Seek to put the batch 3 aircraft up for sale at cost price, or...

3) Push back deliveries as long as possible to spread the financial burden.

The Army is bearing the brunt of our combat commitments and must therefore have priority for procurement. The Navy has bourne the brunt of capability cuts so must be the next priority. Tactical fighters have swallowed up a disproprionate amount of our procurement budget, are far less relevant to our defence priorities than other platforms that are being cut and we must use heaven and earth to seek to divert further expenditure from Typhoon into higher priority areas.
 

Alpha Epsilon

New Member
Absolutely right about the partner nations agreement being essential to a "cheap" exit, howver Germany and Spain have already said they won't change anything and I would be very surprised if they agreed to anything. The Germans will return the favour the UK showed them in the early 1990s and basically force the UK to continue and get a great combat aeroplane.

I don't want to see Tranche 3 cut, I think cutting F35 would make more sense, just cut it down to 80 and give those to the FAA only. The RAF would still have 232 Typhoons and 100+ Tornados.

My preferred solution would however be proper funding for HM Armed Forces. :)
 
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