yup its on the CVF news on the Mod Navy site on the Selex IFF
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
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The UK is about to start upgrading HMS Sutherland in a 35m deal. The Type 23 frigate is to get:
1. The Navy's latest and most sophisticated submarine hunting sonar (2087)system, capable of identifying submarines at an even greater range;
2. An advanced Sea Wolf air defence missile system, which will counter the advanced threat from missiles and fixed wing aircraft;
3. A new improved main gun, capable of firing long-range ammunition;
4. A reshaped stern to cut fuel use.
The ship will be one of the first ships in the fleet to benefit from the £300m upgrade of the Sea Wolf Missile defence system by BAE Systems Insyte, greatly enhancing her anti-aircraft capabilities.
The frigate's new submarine-hunting capacity will come as part of a £166m sonar project run by Thales UK:
Sea Wolf, though one of the few systems ever tried and tested in a combat, is unfortunately restricted by range. Does anyone know whether the planned upgrades include an increase in range? One assumes with developments in technology since its first introduction there must be scope in this area.
1. The Navy's latest and most sophisticated submarine hunting sonar (2087)system, capable of identifying submarines at an even greater range;
2. An advanced Sea Wolf air defence missile system, which will counter the advanced threat from missiles and fixed wing aircraft;
3. A new improved main gun, capable of firing long-range ammunition;
4. A reshaped stern to cut fuel use.
The ship will be one of the first ships in the fleet to benefit from the £300m upgrade of the Sea Wolf Missile defence system by BAE Systems Insyte, greatly enhancing her anti-aircraft capabilities.
The frigate's new submarine-hunting capacity will come as part of a £166m sonar project run by Thales UK:
Sea Wolf, though one of the few systems ever tried and tested in a combat, is unfortunately restricted by range. Does anyone know whether the planned upgrades include an increase in range? One assumes with developments in technology since its first introduction there must be scope in this area.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
It's not that short-range - 10km or so for the VLS version is good enough (according to the RN website). It is a point-defence weapon after all.
The range is not a problem as it is designed to take out missiles/aircraft coming toward you...
It sickens me to see what the labour government have done to the Armed Forces. They plan to cut the RN by half, are going to sack thousands of people from the military and are cutting down tank regiments and front line squadrons of the RAF. The french have replaced UK as Number 1 Navy in europe due to Mr.Browns incompitance and stupidity.
Why are they doing this? with increasing threats from russia and iran why do the Gov' choose to keep cutting the forces. Its almost as if they want to lose.
I think they need to stop spending money on nurses and thugs and start giving out armed forces the respect they deserve. an extra £8 billion on the defence budget should do it.
Why are they doing this? with increasing threats from russia and iran why do the Gov' choose to keep cutting the forces. Its almost as if they want to lose.
I think they need to stop spending money on nurses and thugs and start giving out armed forces the respect they deserve. an extra £8 billion on the defence budget should do it.
Jambo,
what an absolutely ridiculous statement to suggest that the government stop spending money on nurses. I would suggest that far more UK citizens have died from extended waiting lists, MRSA and 2nd rate health funding over the last 30 years than any enemy action. That is why the majority of UK public will never swap hospitals (and schools or nursing homes for that matter) for warships or aircraft. I dont know what your tax take is per month but feel free to pay more.
As I see it the UK plc has spent well over 10 billion over the last 5 years on wars that were unnecessary. Furthermore as a Police Officer for the last two decades, with some insight, the risk of terror attacks at home as risen and money has been needed on the home front. Hence services such as the RN are starved, tanks are largely irrelevant and the Typhoon looks a cold war relic because the current threat is somewhat confused. In that context a government of a labour persuasion has done more than hoped in terms of warship ordering, the nuclear deterrent and general hi tech kit and research eg "taranis". The Consevative website barely mentions defence, that is the profile defence currently holds.
The british public will not pay an extra 2 pence in the pound for another dozen warships that might never see action, the electorate cant grasp the value of deterrent. We just have to hope that the government maintains core capabilities and the industrial base so that should a bogey man appear on the international stage, the UK plc can re-arm. Where is a Galtieri when you need one?
what an absolutely ridiculous statement to suggest that the government stop spending money on nurses. I would suggest that far more UK citizens have died from extended waiting lists, MRSA and 2nd rate health funding over the last 30 years than any enemy action. That is why the majority of UK public will never swap hospitals (and schools or nursing homes for that matter) for warships or aircraft. I dont know what your tax take is per month but feel free to pay more.
As I see it the UK plc has spent well over 10 billion over the last 5 years on wars that were unnecessary. Furthermore as a Police Officer for the last two decades, with some insight, the risk of terror attacks at home as risen and money has been needed on the home front. Hence services such as the RN are starved, tanks are largely irrelevant and the Typhoon looks a cold war relic because the current threat is somewhat confused. In that context a government of a labour persuasion has done more than hoped in terms of warship ordering, the nuclear deterrent and general hi tech kit and research eg "taranis". The Consevative website barely mentions defence, that is the profile defence currently holds.
The british public will not pay an extra 2 pence in the pound for another dozen warships that might never see action, the electorate cant grasp the value of deterrent. We just have to hope that the government maintains core capabilities and the industrial base so that should a bogey man appear on the international stage, the UK plc can re-arm. Where is a Galtieri when you need one?
Disagree strongly. The ONLY advantage the French have over the RN is with the CDG carrier, and that will rectified over the next decade. In every other respect the RN is noticeable superior.
Shouldn't believe all you read in the tabloids.
not really as GDG in refit for 18 months:vamp the French are carrierless for over a year thats why the Rafs will be on Enterprise so the pilots will still be able to get carrier QualsDisagree strongly. The ONLY advantage the French have over the RN is with the CDG carrier, and that will rectified over the next decade. In every other respect the RN is noticeable superior.
Shouldn't believe all you read in the tabloids.
no sir, when did i say nurses and thugs were on the same level? the government are throwing billions into the NHS, its such a waste as labour dont know what on earth they are doing. UK has the 2nd highest defence budget in the world yet the navy is to be cut by half (apparently) and many other vehicles and equipment is to be taken out of service as you know. why is this? because labour have no idea how to use the money given to them.
update by DID on the Duke upgrades
Britain Upgrading Her Dukes
SHIP FFH Type-23 HMS Sutherland
HMS Sutherland
(click to view full)
Brtiain's Type 23 Duke Class frigates were originally envisioned as pure anti-submarine vessels, to the extent of being planned with no other armament. The 1982 Falklands War quickly put paid to that idea, however, and the Type 23s would end up being commissioned from 1989-2001 and fitted with a main gun, Sea Wolf short range anti-air missiles, and Harpoon anti-ship missiles to accompany her torpedoes, decoys, et. al. These changes turned the frigates from specialized sub-hunters into versatile multi-role combatants that play a key role in the British fleet. The Royal Navy is set to continue shrinking in size (see esp. diagram) due to rising ship costs, and even though key platforms like aircraft carriers and amphibious ships may be more capable, the mid-tier combat role filled by frigates is not slated for new construction any time soon. As such, upgrading the Navy's 13 remaining Type 23s to keep them in service is vitally important to Britain's future force.
As part of those upgrade efforts, the Type 23 frigates will receive: Sonar 2087 towed sonars, the Royal Navy's latest and most sophisticated submarine hunting system (Thales UK, GBP 166 million for machines that go 'ping!'); Upgraded vertical-launch Sea Wolf Block 2 air defence missiles to help counter supersonic anti-ship missiles (BAE Systems Insyte with MBDA, GBP 300 million); an improved 114mm Vickers Mk 8 Mod 1 main gun, capable of firing long-range ammunition; and a reshaped stern to cut fuel use.
Dec 6/07: Britain's MoD announced that the F81 HMS Sutherland would be the latest to receive these refits, at a cost of GBP 35 million (about $71.6 million). New equipment valued at GBP 18 million will be installed as part of a general overhaul of the ship under a GBP 17 million contract with Babcock Marine at their Rosyth dockyard in Scotland.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/britain-upgrading-her-dukes-04403/
Britain Upgrading Her Dukes
SHIP FFH Type-23 HMS Sutherland
HMS Sutherland
(click to view full)
Brtiain's Type 23 Duke Class frigates were originally envisioned as pure anti-submarine vessels, to the extent of being planned with no other armament. The 1982 Falklands War quickly put paid to that idea, however, and the Type 23s would end up being commissioned from 1989-2001 and fitted with a main gun, Sea Wolf short range anti-air missiles, and Harpoon anti-ship missiles to accompany her torpedoes, decoys, et. al. These changes turned the frigates from specialized sub-hunters into versatile multi-role combatants that play a key role in the British fleet. The Royal Navy is set to continue shrinking in size (see esp. diagram) due to rising ship costs, and even though key platforms like aircraft carriers and amphibious ships may be more capable, the mid-tier combat role filled by frigates is not slated for new construction any time soon. As such, upgrading the Navy's 13 remaining Type 23s to keep them in service is vitally important to Britain's future force.
As part of those upgrade efforts, the Type 23 frigates will receive: Sonar 2087 towed sonars, the Royal Navy's latest and most sophisticated submarine hunting system (Thales UK, GBP 166 million for machines that go 'ping!'); Upgraded vertical-launch Sea Wolf Block 2 air defence missiles to help counter supersonic anti-ship missiles (BAE Systems Insyte with MBDA, GBP 300 million); an improved 114mm Vickers Mk 8 Mod 1 main gun, capable of firing long-range ammunition; and a reshaped stern to cut fuel use.
Dec 6/07: Britain's MoD announced that the F81 HMS Sutherland would be the latest to receive these refits, at a cost of GBP 35 million (about $71.6 million). New equipment valued at GBP 18 million will be installed as part of a general overhaul of the ship under a GBP 17 million contract with Babcock Marine at their Rosyth dockyard in Scotland.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/britain-upgrading-her-dukes-04403/
CVF contracts placed
I see that money is being spent - £28 million for assorted bits & pieces for both carriers.
http://www.gnn.gov.uk//Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=337692&NewsAreaID=2
I see that money is being spent - £28 million for assorted bits & pieces for both carriers.
http://www.gnn.gov.uk//Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=337692&NewsAreaID=2
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
That's been happening for a few months.
Super Nimrod
New Member
Excellent, I can now withdraw my comments from last week that there hadn't been many announcements about things being procured to build the CVF's
...Nice also to see that although the equipment is "inovative", that the same old "specialist" manufacturers have been employed (e.g Wartsilia/converteam & AGI(who are both used on Type 45)).
Shows some thought process about continuity/commonality with current fleet fit. Should help on costs of spares too!!
Systems Adict
Shows some thought process about continuity/commonality with current fleet fit. Should help on costs of spares too!!
Systems Adict
has a desesion on the GT as both WR-21 or MT-30 were thought be the power plant. Also has a desion been made on podded drives
perfectgeneral
New Member
Navy matters has it as two MT-30 and no pods. I would guess that more MT-30/WR-21 and pods could be added later for CTOL speeds?
it capable of speeds for CTOL ops how ever it is fitter as 28Kn is fast enough with some hefty cats.
i saw the navy matters but it has been confirmed anywhere else [o well just have to wait until they order the Gas Turbines]
I take it your referring to this quote from Naval technology
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvf/
"The MOD has decided not to use nuclear propulsion because of high cost, and several alternative configurations have been considered for the propulsion system, including a 25MW WR21 gas turbine, as used on the Type 45 frigate, and a podded propulsion system based on Integrated Full Electric Propulsion (IFEP).
A configuration currently being considered is based on two Rolls Royce Marine Trent 36MW MT30 gas turbine alternators driving two electric motors. The motors power fixed conventional propeller shafts.
CVF will have two bronze propellers, each 6.7m in diameter and weighing 33t. The anchors will be 3.1m in height and weigh 13t."
I personally believe that they'll use the conventional electric drive motors & shafts, powered by generators fed from the the WR21's.
With such a large & complex design, these decisions will have no doubt already been made, as the earlier such decisions are made, the easier it is to plan construction & order the parts.
The idea of putting in even short shaft lines from the electric motors to the propellers, only to have then ripped out in "X" years time, to be replaced by pods is farcical! No shipbuilder in their right mind would consider this as a viable option.
It's either, Or, not both. The structure that would be needed to be put in place on the deck plates of the outer hull to support pods, just doesn't make it practical to fit shaft lines as well.
These lessons will already have been learned from the huge commercial cruise ships that have been plying the global oceans for the last 10 - 15 years, since pods where introduced.
The use of the WR21's also would, yet again, be a sound, practical choice. With Type 45 already using them & getting good results, it would be foolish to switch to another semi-unproven system, purely for the continuity / spares factor, never mind the maintenance & operational differences.
Also, while gas turbines have been used elsewhere in the RN fleet, to great effect, they tend to be fuel hungry & have the additional drawback of only being able to run on cleaner, refined fuel oils, unlike most commercial diesels, which have been updated / adapted to run on everything from rough crude oil, to LPG !
Systems Adict
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Super Nimrod
New Member
Isn't that what the large diesels ordered this week are for, so that at low speed the turbines could be stood down ? The Wartsila press release suggests it is, or do I misunderstand ?
http://www.wartsila.com/,en,press,0,,3907F6B4-6703-4CE3-B3A5-FE1539527AA7,,,.htm
http://www.wartsila.com/,en,press,0,,3907F6B4-6703-4CE3-B3A5-FE1539527AA7,,,.htm
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