Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[Gripenator]

Just as China some day will deploy to the Indian Ocean, India may reciprocate (by not staying only in the Indian Ocean) sending a CBG to S.China Sea & W. Pacific, if she is to become a global power! In the now closed "sinking carrier" tread I said that having a carrier evens the palying field- an IN CBG near the PRC may reduce PLAN's presense in India's backyard!

FYI, some analysts believe a PLAN deployment in the Indian Ocean is imminent with the completion of the Gwadar seaport in Western Pakistan, the port certainly can accomodate a DDG although a 6000t carrier may be out of the question-the hypothetical deployment has nothing to do with being a major power (displaying the flag), the intent is merely to "safeguard" crude oil from the Gulf to the Straits of Malacca although I really don't understand how exactly the PLAN can do that even if they had a "CBG" on paper, not having the necessary tactics, doctrine or integrated air defense network like AEGIS fully operational-a pressing question is the effectiveness of a PLAN air defense network against supersonic AshMs such as the Brahmos if the PLAn is intending to operate in India's "backyard" although that may change in the next 20 years or so.

 

[funtz]

20 years with new is a long time, with the planed additions in the region and improving intelligence gahering capabiliy the whole game might change.

There is a interesting insight into the situation.

China shaping the maritime battlefield, says Naval Chief
By ANI
Saturday December 2, 06:25 PM

Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, today said the Indian Navy is not Pakistan or China-centric, but was capability driven and committed to developing capabilities to protect the maritime interests of the nation.

He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters. In his maiden media interaction after assuming charge as Naval Chief, Admiral Mehta said: "China we believe is shaping the maritime battle field in the region. It is making friends at the right places. If you don't have the capability to operate in those waters, for a length of time, then you need friends who will support your cause, when the time comes, so definitely China is doing that, as there are Pakistan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and down below Africa. So it is a known fact that we are ringed by states, which may have a favourable disposition towards China. They are looking 20 years ahead."

he said that surveillance is of prime importance to the Indian Navy, and it is being heightened by means of electronic warfare system, long range maritime patrol aircraft, radars and UAVs.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/061202/139/69xp7.html

What on earth did he mean by saying:
He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters.

Any opinions about that?

 

[Firehorse]

He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters.
Any opinions about that?

IMO it was just posturing and bluffing- the IN doesn't yet operate a single SSN and would be very unhappy if Chinese were to operate in their backyard, in addition to Pakistanis! The correct phrase to use would have been: "it's not in the interests of India to face Chinese nuclear submarines in Indian waters".

 

[tphuang]

FYI, some analysts believe a PLAN deployment in the Indian Ocean is imminent with the completion of the Gwadar seaport in Western Pakistan, the port certainly can accomodate a DDG although a 6000t carrier may be out of the question-the hypothetical deployment has nothing to do with being a major power (displaying the flag), the intent is merely to "safeguard" crude oil from the Gulf to the Straits of Malacca although I really don't understand how exactly the PLAN can do that even if they had a "CBG" on paper, not having the necessary tactics, doctrine or integrated air defense network like AEGIS fully operational-a pressing question is the effectiveness of a PLAN air defense network against supersonic AshMs such as the Brahmos if the PLAn is intending to operate in India's "backyard" although that may change in the next 20 years or so.

There is no question that carrier operation takes a long time to develop, but the hardware will be there in 10 years.

If you look at their recent development air defense is no longer a problem. All their latest ships have the necessary sensors to track and engage multiple supersonic missiles. Besides, having up to 40 flankers + several surveillance planes will be the main air defense for a fleet.

 

[gf0012-aust]

What on earth did he mean by saying:
He dismissed threats from the Chinese nuclear submarines, saying it was not in their interest to be operating in Indian waters.

Any opinions about that?

Considering the fact that they already have subs in the indian ocean its a moot point.

the best of their nuclear sub drivers learnt their craft from conventionals. If they're tooling around in any sub then they're getting benefit:

• transoceanic experience
• harvesting (they're not in the Indian ocean around the Andomans to check on the bio diversity near the naval base or air force facilities...)
• time - extra hours = extra experience
• distance - long distance training implies penetration training and at a minimum ISR roles.

Not the smartest thing to say IMO.

 

[indian bull]

And now this :-

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20071204/nation.htm#6
Admiral Gorshkov Deal
Naval chief rules out price renegotiation
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, December 3
The first opposition to the reworking of the Admiral Gorshkov deal with Russia has come from the very force, which has been waiting to get the delivery of the much-needed aircraft carrier.

The Navy today asserted that there was no need to renegotiate the deal with Russia, which has been demanding more money from India for the refitment of the aircraft carrier.

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta also said in the light of the demand made by Russia, there was a need to even ponder “where our defence relations are going with Moscow”.

“We have paid more than $400 million for the carrier and we own it now,” he added.

“I have told the government that the Navy’s line is that we should not talk on renegotiating the price of the carrier,” the Chief of Naval Staff said here while addressing the media ahead of Navy Day.

The Navy said the additional $1.2 billion Moscow had demanded violates the terms of the contract. The comments of the Naval Chief just days ahead of the arrival of a high-level Russian team assume significance and also possibly reflect the Indian mindset over the issue.

“The government should not get into price re-negotiations. If today they reopen the negotiations for Gorshkov, tomorrow all other projects will be reopened,” Admiral Mehta said. At the same time, he admitted there would be “complicated negotiations” on the Russian demand and on issues like the penalty clause that has been built into the contract in case delivery of the carrier is delayed. He added categorically that there would be no opting out of the deal for India. The ship, re-christened INS Vikramaditya, was originally to have been delivered in early 2008. This has now been pushed back to around 2010-11.

“There will be a lot of additions and subtractions and in the end, I personally don’t think we will be paying very much more, if at all anything extra.” Admiral Mehta agreed when asked whether the Gorshkov episode pointed to the need for India to reduce its dependence on Russia for military hardware.

“There was a different paradigm when we did business with the (erstwhile) Soviet Union. They were the sellers and we were the buyers. After the Soviet Union collapsed, the paradigm changed and both our nations have accepted this”, he said.

Today, there is a conscious feeling emerging that we should not put all our eggs in one basket,” the Navy chief maintained. After protracted negotiations, India signed a deal with Russia on January 20, 2004, to buy the Gorshkov, along with 12 single-seat MiG-29 fighters and four twin-seat MiG-29 trainers. Of the contracted amount, approximately $800 million was to be spent on upgrading and refitting the ship and $700 million on the 16 MiG-29 jets and six Kamov Ka-31 attack and reconnaissance anti-submarine helicopters.

Defence minister A.K. Antony had also raised the issue during his recent visit to Moscow, both at his meeting with his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov and at the seventh meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC) that the two ministers co-chaired.
well today gorshokov, tomorrow T-90s and so on, i think its the time to start getting rid of this old ally and become more self sufficient. The black mailing is increasing day by day and could have an serious implication in the time of need.

 

[funtz]

Considering the fact that they already have subs in the indian ocean its a moot point.

Not the smartest thing to say IMO.

What is the difference between Indian ocean and Indian waters?

A person who is to heads a navy and has spent his life in the navy should sound more logical than that, I think the reporter might have twisted the words or put them out of context, other wise another case of hear no evil, see no evil.

IMO it was just posturing and bluffing- the IN doesn't yet operate a single SSN and would be very unhappy if Chinese were to operate in their backyard, in addition to Pakistanis! The correct phrase to use would have been: "it's not in the interests of India to face Chinese nuclear submarines in Indian waters".

I do not think that i have the knowledge to judge how anti submarine operations are carried out in a area where one has the capability of utilizing all of ones anti submarine assets, it seems that you on the other hand clearly have some, so care to explain the nature of anti submarine operations to me or point me towards some literature on it.

However the strategic partnerships that eveolve in the region will play a greater role, and China already has a clear edge in that aspect.

The Navy said the additional $1.2 billion Moscow had demanded violates the terms of the contract. The comments of the Naval Chief just days ahead of the arrival of a high-level Russian team assume significance and also possibly reflect the Indian mindset over the issue.

“The government should not get into price re-negotiations. If today they reopen the negotiations for Gorshkov, tomorrow all other projects will be reopened,” Admiral Mehta said. At the same time, he admitted there would be “complicated negotiations” on the Russian demand and on issues like the penalty clause that has been built into the contract in case delivery of the carrier is delayed. He added categorically that there would be no opting out of the deal for India. The ship, re-christened INS Vikramaditya, was originally to have been delivered in early 2008. This has now been pushed back to around 2010-11.

As its a government to government deal the gorshkov revamp project might have to be carried all the way.
And as a government to government deal, Russia will have a tough deision, the upcoming projects like the Project 17 A, long range maritime patrol aircrafts (and the possible gap fillers), second line of submarines, and MMRCA, it will be difficult to get on the nerves of the Ministry of Defence, however even they will not be willing to absorb the 1.2 billion dollars, more negotiations will take more time, this white elephant might come around by the time the indigenous project does.
So the project now is 1.2 billion dollars + the 400 mill. already paid = 1.6 billion dollars for a second hand carrier, wonder how long can it serve.

 

[funtz]

The Klub does not work. Indian Navy

my my, i owe an apology to some people for trusting in bharat rakshak website (if this report is true)

No dealings on aircrafts with Russia: Indian Navy

Vishal Thapar
CNN - IBN

Eastern Seaboard: From Indo US relations to Indo Russian ties, they are certainly catching a chill.

And for that matter, India is getting increasingly vocal about its unease with its principal defence supplier--Russia.

After the bitter spat over the acquisition of the Russian aircraft carrier Gorshkov, the Indian Navy is now going public with another sore issue--


the Klub cruise missile.

Inducted to be the main strike weapon of India's submarine arm between 2001 and 2006, this anti-ship cruise missile has never hit a target.


Seven of India's 10-kilo class submarines and the three Talwar class stealth frigates have been fitted with this weapon.

"There are problems that we have overcome but we are having dialogues,” says FOC-in-C, Eastern Naval Command, Vice-Admiral PS Suthan

India is reported to have acquired over 200 Klubs at a cost of several thousand crores. And the missiles have never reached anywhere close to the stated range of 300 km.


The failure of the Klub cruise missiles has raised fresh doubts about the reliability of Russia as an arms supplier.


The naval top brass now concedes that it may have to reconsider the entire upgrade programme for the Kilo class submarines.


“We will look into other missiles,” says Vice-Admiral Puthan.

New options for India have made the reliability deficit with Russian equipment harder to digest.

The US has already made in-roads with the Vulcan Phalynx weapon system, installed on board the newly-acquired troop carrier ship, INS Jalashwa.

The Phalynx is the world's most proven close-in missile defence system, and it's the first lethal weapon system supplied by the US to India.

Also, it is the first time that a non-NATO country has been provided this weapon"

So the continuing problems with Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov's modernisation refit project has become the most visible symbol of the rancour creeping into the relationship.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/no-dealings-on-aircrafts-with-russia-indian-navy/53592-3.html


Great so the Navy has a major weapon on its ships and subs that is can not hit anything, and that does not even matter as it can not ever get near the target to hit it. Good luck in the war i guess.

This report if true can mean another huge bofors scandal type investigation.

- The headline has nothing to do with the story, the guy should take the journalism/mass communication cource again and from a proper college.
- How on planet earth will the guys who approved the purchace of the 200 missiles expain the way they got around fielding the missile without proving it.

They might as well put the bofors on the ships and subs.
Some strategic partner Russia is, with friends like these ....

 

[harryriedl]

my my, i owe an apology to some people for trusting in bharat rakshak website (if this report is true)


http://www.ibnlive.com/news/no-dealings-on-aircrafts-with-russia-indian-navy/53592-3.html


Great so the Navy has a major weapon on its ships and subs that is can not hit anything, and that does not even matter as it can not ever get near the target to hit it. Good luck in the war i guess.

This report if true can mean another huge bofors scandal type investigation.

- The headline has nothing to do with the story, the guy should take the journalism/mass communication cource again and from a proper college.
- How on planet earth will the guys who approved the purchace of the 200 missiles expain the way they got around fielding the missile without proving it.

They might as well put the bofors on the ships and subs.
Some strategic partner Russia is, with friends like these ....

A rather wide ranging question but where dose this leave India and its mix of Russian/European [mostly British equipment] and indigenous . Do they continue with the Talwars and the P17 and other Russian frigierts/destroyers . What an earth can they possibly do with Gorskhov, this is truly frighting how this has snowballed.

for the ships mounted with Klub can they replace it with Bramos or anything else[Exoset].

lastly what happens with the MMRCA presumably Russia is no longer considered the front runner anymore. Will India pay the increased price for the SU30MK1?

 

[Firehorse]

IMO it was just posturing and bluffing- the IN doesn't yet operate a single SSN and would be very unhappy if Chinese were to operate in their backyard, in addition to Pakistanis! The correct phrase to use would have been: "it's not in the interests of India to face Chinese nuclear submarines in Indian waters".

I do not think that i have the knowledge to judge how anti submarine operations are carried out in a area where one has the capability of utilizing all of ones anti submarine assets, it seems that you on the other hand clearly have some, so care to explain the nature of anti submarine operations to me or point me towards some literature on it.

The less submarines are there to deal with, the better, no metter how advanced their ASW capability is. There is a heavy tanker traffic to/from the Gulf, and subs can use it to their advantage, besides also targeting it. An lastly, they are potent land attack & intelligence gathering tools.

 

[Gripenator]

There is no question that carrier operation takes a long time to develop, but the hardware will be there in 10 years.

If you look at their recent development air defense is no longer a problem. All their latest ships have the necessary sensors to track and engage multiple supersonic missiles. Besides, having up to 40 flankers + several surveillance planes will be the main air defense for a fleet.

Ah...you mean the 'AEGIS like' integrated combat system onboard the 052Cs incorporating the Type 348 APAR. Wikipedia says it may be derived from the Thomson-CSF TAVITAC but I personally think it may be a further developement although I don't believe the PLAN has tested it against the latest supersonic seaskimmers, do you know anything about tests?

40+ Flankers? Are you referring to the Carrier plans outlined in the latest Xinhua/People's Daily reports? I suppose in the event they are true (they are exaggerating most of the time) then PLAN is aiming for a 70-75,000 tonne carrier on their first try-very ambitious given the lack of a shipborne AWACS although a navalized Y-8/Ka-31 AEW helo may suffice.

 

[funtz]

A rather wide ranging question but where dose this leave India and its mix of Russian/European [mostly British equipment] and indigenous . Do they continue with the Talwars and the P17 and other Russian frigierts/destroyers . What an earth can they possibly do with Gorskhov, this is truly frighting how this has snowballed.

for the ships mounted with Klub can they replace it with Bramos or anything else[Exoset].

lastly what happens with the MMRCA presumably Russia is no longer considered the front runner anymore. Will India pay the increased price for the SU30MK1?

India is already paying the price increase for SU 30(indian versions).

the MMRCA yes the russians can kiss that and a lot of other contracts good buy, with the gorshkov deal they are messing with the politicians and the administrators in the ministry of defence, and that will come back to haunt them, more than Pi**ing of the Navy.

Klub will in all probability stay with the navy, 200 missiles and some installed launchers is eventually too much work.

The guy who made this report is not on the same planet. The klub with the Indian navy apparently does not have a 300km range.

Gorshkov deal will be carrier through, even if it ends up like Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier for the Indian Navy. What can it do, well i suppose men are always into my boat is bigger than yours competitionsnfloorl:

The only thing the navy can do to avoid russian junk is to tailor the requirements for the upcoming project P-17 A and the second line of submarines in such a way that the russians have no chance of winning the contract, i think they might have done that, unless the famous middlemen have had their way into the navy.

If only the military showed the same level of relaxed requirements for the indigenous projects.

What is the possible reason?
Payoffs (bribes)? Or a question of availability?



Some more brilliant defense journalists from India refusing to believe
that kitty hawk carrier is not coming into Indian Navy,

New Delhi, Dec. 4:
“Look, I am not buying it (the US carrier),” Mehta said indignantly in a bid to scotch the speculation. He was asked for his views on an article by a strategic affairs commentator who wrote that the induction of the Kitty Hawk would cement India-US military ties. “It’s too old,” Mehta added.

But there is reason to believe that the Indian establishment may not completely overrule a second look at the Kitty Hawk. The Pentagon is understood to have made discreet suggestions.

Indian naval air squadron pilots are also training in the US — even on the Kitty Hawk — for the “arrested landing” required on carrier decks. Ironically, the pilots are training for the MiG 29Ks that have been negotiated with Russia in a package deal for the Gorshkov

But the navy has already paid $500 million for the Gorshkov. “It is my ship,” Mehta asserted.

“The Indian Navy will add at least another 45 vessels in the next decade to maintain a 140-ship navy for operations. The focus is to reinforce sea control and sea denial capability that spans the Persian Gulf to the China Sea.

“The induction of the USS Kitty Hawk could be the trigger for the switchover from Russian-French to US platforms, first in the navy and later in the air force and the army.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071205/asp/nation/story_8631289.asp

I think the journalists wish for the Prime Minister to come on national telivision and tell them that the kitty hawk is not coming in the indian navy, that is just pathetic journalism.

 

[tphuang]

my my, i owe an apology to some people for trusting in bharat rakshak website (if this report is true)


http://www.ibnlive.com/news/no-dealings-on-aircrafts-with-russia-indian-navy/53592-3.html


Great so the Navy has a major weapon on its ships and subs that is can not hit anything, and that does not even matter as it can not ever get near the target to hit it. Good luck in the war i guess.

This report if true can mean another huge bofors scandal type investigation.

- The headline has nothing to do with the story, the guy should take the journalism/mass communication cource again and from a proper college.
- How on planet earth will the guys who approved the purchace of the 200 missiles expain the way they got around fielding the missile without proving it.

They might as well put the bofors on the ships and subs.
Some strategic partner Russia is, with friends like these ....

well, like I said before, Klub have been quite the disappointment with PLA also. You never know what you are going to get with these new magical weapons the Russians advertise. If we look at the stuff their offering, only the weapons based on older and mature platforms are proving their worth like newer variants of flankers, Brahmos, newer variants of S-300 and upgraded shtil. What new product have they really developed in the recent years that is any good?

The guy who made this report is not on the same planet. The klub with the Indian navy apparently does not have a 300km range.

they got both the subsonic and supersonic one I think. So, 300 km range version should've been bought too.

Ah...you mean the 'AEGIS like' integrated combat system onboard the 052Cs incorporating the Type 348 APAR. Wikipedia says it may be derived from the Thomson-CSF TAVITAC but I personally think it may be a further developement although I don't believe the PLAN has tested it against the latest supersonic seaskimmers, do you know anything about tests?

really bad rumour that it's using TAVITAC. We definitely have reports of 1-on-1 encounter between 170 and 171 where they faced multiple sea-skimmers. But either way, the recent PLAN ships are all equipped with SR-64, which is there to track and engage supersonic sea-skimmers. I wrote 3 blogs on the air defense of 054A a few weeks ago, you can check here.
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/

40+ Flankers? Are you referring to the Carrier plans outlined in the latest Xinhua/People's Daily reports? I suppose in the event they are true (they are exaggerating most of the time) then PLAN is aiming for a 70-75,000 tonne carrier on their first try-very ambitious given the lack of a shipborne AWACS although a navalized Y-8/Ka-31 AEW helo may suffice.

the word I'm getting is that the first carrier will be over 60k tonne, probably have catapult, equip a maximum of 40 flankers, a couple of Y-7 AEW and a bunch of helos (I'm guessing Z-8 or helix). And then, they will follow that up with a second generation of carriers. One thing I do have to say is that they built the necessary escorts before the first carrier even got laid down.

 

[funtz]

Navy chief pulled up for Russia remarks

Navy chief pulled up for Russia remarks

Chief of Naval Staff Sureesh Mehta has been pulled up for what is being seen as out-of-turn remarks on India's defence relationship with Russia, which have the potential of impacting Indo-Russian ties.

Senior officials told the Hindustan Times on Wednesday that Defence Minister A.K. Antony was among those who pulled up Admiral Mehta for Monday's comments that there should be no more price negotiations relating to the purchase of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov from Russia. The Admiral went to the extent of saying that New Delhi should think where its relation with Russia is going and not put all its eggs in one basket. The officials, however, contested Mehta's views and said India had diversified its defence purchases.

According to them, the Gorshkov issue and other defence-related matters were recently discussed at the highest level between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President Vladimir Putin.

In such a scenario, the Admiral's remarks have come as a major embarrassment to the government. "It's not as if the Navy has an independent view within the government. There is one view and that is the government's view," the officials said. The government is also upset that the Navy Chief should have referred to India's hush-hush nuclear submarine project in public. Admiral Mehta is believed to be the first Indian official to confirm the existence of the nuclear submarine project.

Contrary to Mehta’s very public advice on the Gorshkov issue, the government is getting set to send a high-level delegation to Russia to discuss the price issue.

So the new defese doctrine is too ignore the problems faced, as they will eventually go away. Brilliant, if we incorporate this into the Education, Economy and public health we will achieve amazing results. (as we will deny any problems exist).

Perhaps the Admiral should also realize that we have no say in international scene, and a relationship is more than guns, planes and boats.

As for putting ones eggs in a sigle basket, these military types are beyond me, if they get too many suppliers they cry about the logistics nightmare, if they get a single source they cry about baskets and eggs.

As for the relationship troubles with Russia, its like saying any strategic realtionship with USA will be followed by a huge purchase of weapon systems from USA. Or may be relations with Russia are all about weapons.

What is the use of giving a public press anouncement about the issue?

All that does signify is that the telephone lines between the Ministry of Defence and the Military do not work.
Its not like more than a handfull of people outside the ministry and the military care about any of this.

 

[funtz]

i remember a lecture on entrepreneurship, some one said something about opening the door when opportunity comes knocking.

After Gorshkov, frigates project faces delay
9 Dec 2007, 0049 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: Amid the ongoing acrimony over the huge delay and cost overrun in the refit of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, another big Indian naval project is the danger of running aground in Russia.

The Indian defence establishment is getting worried at reports emanating from Russia about problems dogging its Rs 5,514-crore (around $1.4-billion) project for construction of three more Talwar-class "stealth" frigates at Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad.
The feeling is that Russia is already setting the stage for demanding more money for the construction of the three frigates, apart from of course pushing back their delivery dates.

The Navy, in fact, is rushing an "overseeing team" to Yantar shipyard, which is not in such a good shape as far as infrastructure and financial health is concerned, in the next few days to keep a close watch on the project's progress, say sources.

While the keel for the first of these three 4,000-tonne guided-missile frigates was laid on July 27 at Yantar, the construction of the second one was formally launched only on November 27.

All this comes close after Russia's demand for a whopping $1.2 billion more to refurbish Gorshkov, after first settling to do it for $974 million in the overall $1.5-billion package deal signed in January 2004.

Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta has even gone public with his exasperation over the entire Gorshkov imbroglio, holding that it was perhaps time for India to rethink its long-standing defence ties with Russia. Though Russia is yet to officially communicate any demand for more money in the frigates' project, Russian officials are publicly holding that it will take "a minimum of $100 million more" to construct the three Indian warships at Yantar shipyard.

"A Russian media report has quoted Yantar shipyard director-general Nikolai Volov as saying that they would wish to increase the cost of the frigates' contract due to the falling US dollar exchange rate," said an official. The Rs 5,514-crore contract for the frigates, which are to be also armed with the 290-km BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, was signed in July 2006, with the delivery scheduled for 2011-2012.

The contract was signed despite India's bitter experience of huge delays in the delivery of the first three Talwar-class frigates, INS Talwar, INS Trishul and INS Tabar, inducted by the Navy in 2003-2004.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s_project_faces_delay/articleshow/2607605.cms

This might be the time that the ministry of defense sent a e mail to their Russian counterparts with a strong subject containing up your 'you know what'
Even the best of friends should operate on some sort of decency levels.

The Russians seem to hold some sort of card up theirs 'you know what'.
The Navy is still crying about the massive expansion and the Russians seem to be confident that delayed projects and expanding costs is the way to go. Either the Russian equipment is dirt cheap or they give the best offsets if you catch my drift.

Sure people like to do things the easy laid back way in India but this is taking it too far, i hope stealth frigates is not a russian joke for 'you will never see them'.
nfloorl:

 

[funtz]

Meanwhile

Design delays put drag on India`s naval warship programme
Ajai Shukla / Mumbai December 05, 2007
But now all this could change with the dockyards going global. At Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai, the Chairman, Vice Admiral SKK Krishnan, told Business Standard that
a search has been launched for an international design partner with which MDL will set up an internationally registered private joint venture (JV), that will not just design warships but also function globally as a private design centre.

http://www.business-standard.com/ec...nm=3&subLeft=1&chklogin=N&autono=306542&tab=r

and

Hi-level French naval delegation meets Indian Navy Chief
10 December 2007
PTI
Keen to bounce back into the Indian armament suppliers market, a high-level French naval delegation led by its chief Admiral Alain Oudot de Dainville on Monday held wide ranging discussions with his Indian counterpart Admiral Sureesh Mehta.
His visit to New Delhi assumes significance in the wake of recent announcement by India that it planned to open the second line of submarine manufacturing in the country.

The French Company DCN International has already shored up a contract for supply of six Scorpene submarines to the navy and would be a keen bidder for India's plans to acquire six more subs.

The French admiral would be the first foreign naval chief to visit the navy's new base at Karwar. He will also visit the naval air base at Goa as well as Western Naval Fleet warships in Mumbai.

India and France, so far, have held five rounds of joint strategic exercises involving carriers, nuclear submarines, frigates, destroyers as well as naval fighters.

http://www.idrw.org/2007/12/10/hilevel_french_naval_delegation_meets_indian_navy_chief.html

Any work which was on time and met the costs would have ensured that the MoD-India placed more contracts with Russian.
With the Club/Klub missiles going off to all directions it might be good bye Russia, all the situation needs are a allegations of a payoff scandal and it might be over for the Russians in a lot of upcoming deals.

I don't get it, why set another time consuming procurement process in motion for another line of subs, i mean someones gotta look after these machines, Scorpions can add some legs to their offensive systems or be more customized to make sure they match the requirements (i guess it must be difficult to do this with subs).

The only available explanation is:

With the purchase of the Scorpene SSK by the Indian Navy in October 2005, taking up the first production line under the Project 75 program, it has been suggested that the Amur SSK could be second under the aegis of the Project 76 program. The Indian Navy has reportedly planned for six to eight Amur Class boats as part of its 30-year sub-building program. With a confirmed order of six Scorpene SSKs plus a projected 6 - 8 Amur SSKs, the remaining 12 to 10 boats are planned to be based on an indigenous design and will marry the best of what the Scorpene and Amur SSKs have to offer.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Amur.html

could well be true, who knows this indigenous project might be too far down the line, about 2020-25 start i guess.
This Navy thing takes time

 

[Firehorse]

India eyes nuclear submarine trials by 2009
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=11538

MUMBAI: India will be ready to test its first domestically built nuclear-powered submarine at sea by 2009, its navy chief said on Monday. A long-running secret project, India's nuclear-powered submarine is said to be a 5,000-tonne modified version of the Russian Charlie-II class vessel. Code-named "the Advanced Technology Vessel", the submarine will be capable of launching nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles and give India's navy an advantage over nuclear rival Pakistan. "Scientists have confirmed that they (will) have the project ready for trials by 2009," the Press Trust of India quoted Admiral Sureesh Mehta as saying. "We want the Russian nuclear submarine to enable our boys to train on how to operate nuclear reactors and platforms and other systems," he said.

I wonder if selling more SSNs to a non-signatory to NPT is permitted? India may want to buy 2nd-hand subs from Russia to catch up with China.

 

[kams]

I wonder if selling more SSNs to a non-signatory to NPT is permitted? India may want to buy 2nd-hand subs from Russia to catch up with China.

IN is planning to 'Lease' Nuclear Subs, not buy.

 

[tphuang]

I wonder if selling more SSNs to a non-signatory to NPT is permitted? India may want to buy 2nd-hand subs from Russia to catch up with China.

other than the fact that you can't buy SSNs, IN would have to lease a lot of nuclear subs to match up with China. I wonder how many Russian SSNs are still active right now. I think PLAN might have more in a few years if the Russian ones are getting mothballed at the current pace. Gary? Rick?

 

[funtz]

Leasing Russian subs, i think Russia needs them as much as we do. I do not think leasing the older types will be what the IN wants.

The Russian sub will be used to develop the capability, as the indigenous ones are pushed into service by 2017-2020.