Chinese troops destroy Indian posts, bunker

[indian bull]

Now this is a typical chinese reponse why to go to war for fewacres of land, please let us to occupy a little piece of your barren land, whatz the use of that barren land for you guys in India.

 

[funtz]

if we do the same thing we do what the Chinese are probably waiting for. And starting a military confrontation is not the best way.
The issue will get tremendous international coverage and pressure for the resolution of the issue will increase, some thing that the Governmen is avoiding.

However other moves will deal with the issue more sensibly.
Let us face it, this is at this moment less important than the cricket team that will be selected for Australia tour.
On top of that the economy is more important, and any speulations of a military stand off will start a lot of unpredictable movement.
However i too do not agree with the we see no evil policy, the playing field has to be levelled, and all the government is trying to do is to get China into very long and slow border talks, i think we should just make sure that the positions are manned, that will be enough of a detterence. However this has to be followed by some sort of aggresive diplomatic moves.

 

[funtz]

I think both China and India suck as nations.

While all that you said about China is true, India is itself FAR FAR AWAY from being a model nation. India may be democratic in name but millions are virtual slaves due to poverty.

And this is a border issue. So why not just keep it as that? The issue should be resolved based on the merit of all facts presented.

What does that bring to the table,
are there people who are poor in India, yes there are,
and that will only get better if the economy improves and jobs are created.

Does this mean we abandon democracy, i think not,

most of the worlds population faces this problem, poverty is a global issue, and has to be resolved.

Is this a border issue, yes it is.

Is this in anyway more important than the efforts being made to create more jobs through economic reforms, no it is not.

This is just one of the millions of issues and we are discussing possible solutions that is all.

China being a closed nation or the Poverty in this world have nothing to do with this.

The fact is that a lot of time has gone into this (60 years), and this involved a military action from China.

 

[indian bull]

if we do the same thing we do what the Chinese are probably waiting for. And starting a military confrontation is not the best way.
The issue will get tremendous international coverage and pressure for the resolution of the issue will increase, some thing that the Governmen is avoiding.

However other moves will deal with the issue more sensibly.
Let us face it, this is at this moment less important than the cricket team that will be selected for Australia tour.
On top of that the economy is more important, and any speulations of a military stand off will start a lot of unpredictable movement.
However i too do not agree with the we see no evil policy, the playing field has to be levelled, and all the government is trying to do is to get China into very long and slow border talks, i think we should just make sure that the positions are manned, that will be enough of a detterence. However this has to be followed by some sort of aggresive diplomatic moves.

I am not talking of going to war but same tactics we do with pakistan on LoC i.e. if they start firing we reply them in same language.

 

[Chino]

What does that bring to the table,

I was replying in context to Indian Bull painting China as the evil empire.

All I am saying is that:

We all know the evils of China, but India is itself not a model of freedom, human rights and democracy either.

Besides, it is best to leave this out of the issue at hand. Though China may be evil as charged, this should not be a determining factor on this border issue.

 

[Chino]

The fact is that a lot of time has gone into this (60 years), and this involved a military action from China.

As you know, some border issues NEVER EVER get resolved. And the policies on the same border issue may shift with the successive change of governments.

It all boils down to whether you want a shooting war over it? India, and Indians, and Chinese, will going living life as they did for thousands of years whether or not the border posts get moved a few hundred metres this way or that.

I'm from Singapore and I disqualify myself from being knowlegeable in India's history with China.

However, I must ask if you see the 1962 Sino-India War as completely China's fault?

 

[funtz]

I was replying in context to Indian Bull painting China as the evil empire.

All I am saying is that:

We all know the evils of China, but India is itself not a model of freedom, human rights and democracy either.

Besides, it is best to leave this out of the issue at hand. Though China may be evil as charged, this should not be a determining factor on this border issue.

Exactly the nature of China and India are not important and we should discuss this issue with respect for both nations.

The problem is that this issue just can not be resolved, in 60 years no progress has been made, in respect to that the military actions reported in the media citing sources from the Indian military clearly indicate that some sort of aggressive patrolling is being followed by China.
This might lead to clashes and create more tension along with military build up.
Hence dealing comprehensively with this issue now to stop whatever aggressive moves are being made is required.

I do not think protests to China against these moves will achieve anything, as these actions can only be made as a result of much higher level of Chinese leadership. Hence more aggressive actions must be followed.
Not necessarily involving firing a few past them as Mr. Indian Bull suggests, however making sure that border posts are manned and an absolute denial to the Chinese troops from crossing over the boundary as it exists should be done (to the level that the local terrain permits). Only that can negate the carefully picked argument that the Chinese patrols can not determine when it is that they cross the comples border while they are patrolling, otherwise this gives a perfect point to the larger question that the Chinese authorities do not recognize the disputed region as it stands- I can guess that all potests against such action can easily be answered by Beijing through this.

The 62 situation is reported in very immature lines, there are many arguments and counter arguments to suggest whose fault it was.
The only thing that tells me (as even my dad was not a adult back then) is that the falut obviouly was of both the nations.
And that time is gone far far into history books, both India and China have eveolved a lot in this time hence that has absolutly no bearing what so ever on today, even the political, military, administrative leadership from that time is long retired and almost dead.

 

[indian bull]

I agree border posts should not be left unmanned and patrolling on the Indian side should be increased, the same was the reason for Kargil war.

Actually Funtz you are reacting much like Indian govtz spokesman, openly denying any dispute with china, but don't forget the words of previous Indian defence minister George Fernandes that state that china is our potential enemy no. 1 , may be we deny this a thousand times.

 

[Chino]

I know things are a heck of a lot more complicated than I can understand with great issues of distrust etc. But diplomacy is definitely worth trying again. All this talk of war and nuclear deterrence over wasteland is silly.

 

[indian bull]

I know things are a heck of a lot more complicated than I can understand with great issues of distrust etc. But diplomacy is definitely worth trying again. All this talk of war and nuclear deterrence over wasteland is silly.

Well man if it is wasteland then china should return the illegaly occupied territory to India , why it has started the controversy, china could have solved it diplomatically instead they used armed option. why not to talk about these issues i mean we are free to talk these issues or you want people to shut eyes like chinese do.

Let the others know about the reality.

 

[rrrtx]

Be careful folks. The mods will shut this thread down if it is too political in nature.

We sure will. Keep the politics away & do not bring in any 3rd country into the discussion. Its a trend to drag Pakistan into China-India conflict, China into Pakistan-India conflict & India into Pakistan-China relations.

-SABRE

 

[funtz]

on a much lighter note

The Hindu
News Update Service
Sunday, December 2, 2007 : 1825 Hrs

Hindi-Chini bhai bhai rent the air, troops exchange greetings

Nathu La (Sikkim) (PTI): Troops of India and China exchanged pleasantries before visiting media persons in an apparent expression of the strong bilateral relations between the two countries, prior to the visit of Defence Minister A K Antony here.

Chinese officials and soldiers chanted "Hindi-Chini bhai bhai" and shook hands with the mediapersons but refused to make any comments on the questions posed by the journalists.

Earlier the Chinese troops were apparently taken aback by the buzz on the other side of the international border with hordes of mediapersons turning up in wee hours.

Some Chinese Army officials came upto their area to know from the Indian counterparts the reasons behind the bristling activities at Nathula frontier post.

After being told that the Defence Minister was scheduled to visit the Nathula post, the Chinese army officials and soldiers went back to their camps to prepare themselves and came back soon to welcome the visitors.

Man o man, the levels at which so many engagements are going on make this sound like something out of a real bad soap.

 

[Chino]

Well man if it is wasteland then china should return the illegaly occupied territory to India , why it has started the controversy, china could have solved it diplomatically instead they used armed option. why not to talk about these issues i mean we are free to talk these issues or you want people to shut eyes like chinese do.

Let the others know about the reality.

Singapore and Malaysia are now contesting in the ICJ over a little rock called Pedra Blanca that can accommodate only a little lighthouse.

As a Singaporean and a member of the reservist forces, I am 100% behind my country and prepared to fight over this useless piece of rock blah blah blah....

But if i remove all these labels like citizenship, loyalty, military uniforms and other blinding passions, I can tell you honestly that I am LESS THAN certain Singapore's claim is valid. We have some valid reasons as do the Malays.

All I am saying is that we ought to sometimes question what is fed to us even by our own government. All governments lie. War means death - usually yours (the soldier) - not something to be taken lightly.

I am not saying what PLA did is right. But are you 100% certain your own country 100% faultless? IMO, nobody is - or should be, which makes for good reason to exhaust all diplomatic avenues first.

 

[funtz]

Engagement between China and India happens at many levels, this is a part of it, a very unique situation and this thread should be about this very issue, the issue also not about some baron piece of rock, land or a water body, who has good karma and who has bad karma, or a compitition to the moral high ground.

The issue is that there is a disputed region; the definition of this region is very different in the maps of the nations involved.

And obviously diplomatic steps will be there, this has been going on for the last 40-50 years with no changes in the ground reality.

The current situation did not just pop up from the ground, the Chinese had apparently protested against a position and then when the position was unmanned destroyed that position in a show of strength, this clearly shows that they sent a message through their actions that according to them, the map of that disputed region as declared by India does not stand.

What can the government and the military do if one day they find that in place of the destroyed Indian military position, there is a Chinese military position.
- Write a letter to Beijing, may be some diplomats back

Right now the situation is insignificant however leave this alone, and unnecessary events can follow.

Is it worth the Risk?

By the way I suppose the very funny side of ‘Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai’ slogans from the last article has still not been picked up.

 

[Chino]

the issue also not about some baron piece of rock, land or a water body, who has good karma and who has bad karma, or a compitition to the moral high ground.

The issue is that there is a disputed region; the definition of this region is very different in the maps of the nations involved.

Actually the importance of that barren rock is quite significant. We have already lost 2 lives when one of our naval ship was accidentally rammed by a civilian ship while on station at that piece of rock.

...the Chinese had apparently protested against a position and then when the position was unmanned destroyed that position in a show of strength, this clearly shows that they sent a message through their actions that according to them, the map of that disputed region as declared by India does not stand.

Are they also sending a message by not occupying the posts after demolition of the Indian structures?

What can the government and the military do if one day they find that in place of the destroyed Indian military position, there is a Chinese military position.
- Write a letter to Beijing, may be some diplomats back

Right now the situation is insignificant however leave this alone, and unnecessary events can follow.

Is it worth the Risk?

Can't answer that, though military action is the most likely step to take.

But war will set economy, growth etc all back. Not to mention financial and cost in human lives.

By the way I suppose the very funny side of ‘Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai’ slogans from the last article has still not been picked up.

Yeah, I picked it up and see the very black humour. Nehru's slogan for which afterwards everyone criticised him for not seeing the pit.

But there's irony on the other side, too...

According to a book written by a Brit, China thought that Nehru was going back on his "Bhai" slogan when he issued a series of strong threats and aggressive statements which the Chinese wrongly read as a sign of India's intention to attack China.

So they attacked first.

But Nehru, while issuing strong statements against China, forgot to put the army on a war footing, leading to easy defeat.

This Brit author was trying to explain the sudden " unprovoked " attack.

 

[indian bull]

What can the government and the military do if one day they find that in place of the destroyed Indian military position, there is a Chinese military position.
- Write a letter to Beijing, may be some diplomats back

Right now the situation is insignificant however leave this alone, and unnecessary events can follow.

if somebody comes and throws you out of your home what you gonna do man, you mean you will write a letter to those, i mean you will begto them, well that kind of response is not expected from a man who has so many members of his family serving in army.

Man i will fight and give them beffiting reply so that they dont dare this in future may be i loose my life.

 

[s002wjh]

What can be expected from this country which is ruled by communists who have expansionist thinking who are occupying Tibbet and Taiwan forcefuly and claim territory of many nations in the neighbour. They also enjoy supporting other closed system societies like North Korea, Iran and pakistan and burma and so on. India on its part have shown a lot of restraint in past and is showing even now. These chinese are responssible for nuclear and missile proliferation to other countries alike them and their designs had forced us to go nuclear. I advocate our govt. to go and test more ballistic missiles and develop a bigger nuclear arsenal which it can do to show the chinese that they won't be spared if they dare to attack us or other small nations in the region.:bull

isn't india still has a 4 cast system? where the lowest cast can't goto school, and can only found job as toilet cleaner etc? if so isn't that worst than commy china?

 

[indian bull]

you are off topic, discuss about this topic, please.

 

[Chino]

if somebody comes and throws you out of your home what you gonna do man, ...

Man i will fight and give them beffiting reply so that they dont dare this in future may be i loose my life.

Yes, but you are not living " there " nor are any other Indians or Chinese for that matter.

The area is uninhabited - and no one is being thrown out of any home.

So your analogy is ridiculous and over zealous.

The area is in dispute, but India builds structures on it. How do you know these structures are 100% on Indian territory? Did you go there with a map and a ruler and measured and confirmed that they are on indian territory? Or do you just swallow everything your government tells you?

You should join the army and asked to be posted to the borders where your passion can be put to good use.

Furthermore, if you think the PLA is easily frightened you are quite unrealistic, to say the least.

 

[webmaster]

Apparently, when you put two rival countries in the SAME subject line, you can just bet that it will turn into mine is bigger than yours contest and disrespects for each other.

Thread is being locked for reasons some of you may never understand and that is not a good thing.

Enjoy!
---------------------------------
To add; the news has not been confirmed by the Chinese &/or any other international source. Hence it is non-credible. (SABRE)